<p>I'm a Wharton student (freshman), but I'm not really loving it. I haven't found a good group of friends. Penn is very social and cliquey and I'm just not into that kind of stuff. I like intellectual curiosity and Penn/Wharton is very preprofessional. It's also very competitive in a weird way -- the classes are not competitive at all, but you have to compete for a position in literally every club.... needless to say I haven't done so well on that front. I'm just looking for a new start and i think transferring might be a good option for me. I wanted to know if anyone has transferred from wharton or if anyone has any advice on how to do it successfully. If it helps I was thinking about Harvard or Yale (obviously really tough to get into) but if you have any other options that you think i should consider let me know. Conversely, if anyone has any ideas on how to make the most of what I've got (being at Wharton), that's welcome as well. Thanks guys! </p>
<p>If you have great grades, not sure it is as hard as you think.</p>
<p>Wharton is so unique that realize if you transfer you will need to go to business school after undergrad to get to the same place professionally. Therefore, add 150K easy to the bill. If that is not an issue and if the additional 2 years is not an issue, then give it a go. If money or time is an issue, then go for a similar undergrad business degree, but man, it will be a step down from Wharton. </p>
<p>I have seen such Ivy to Ivy transfers, and the key was they were tops in their other schools / programs, and, like you, they were not feeling it. I do not think there is much rocket science here. If you want out, apply and good luck, but seriously weigh the costs outlined in the paragraph above.</p>
<p>Have you gone to events at the Kelly Writers House? Checked out the Philomathean Society? Checked out any of the many speakers and events that happen pretty much every day and night on campus, and the groups that sponsor them? A lot of them are listed or advertised in the DP every day.</p>
<p>Because you’re still just a freshman, you may find–as other students do–that your social and extracurricular life opens up significantly after freshman year. There seems to be a bit of pressure freshman year for people to define themselves and find their ultimate activities, interests, social groups, and niches by the end of that year, and college is a marathon, not a sprint. I’ve heard MANY stories of students at Penn and many other schools who felt somewhat isolated or alienated during freshman year, but then were able to make a much better life for themselves at Penn (or wherever) in their subsequent years. I think a lot of it may be related to being in a larger, more impersonal environment for the first time (as opposed to high school and your local community), and putting too much pressure on yourself, and perhaps having unrealistic expectations based on high school of how quickly and easily you’ll find your niche.</p>
<p>One thing’s for sure: Penn is large and diverse enough that everyone should be able to find friends and activities that suit him or her. I mean, the College alone has 6400 students, majoring in everything from Anthropology to Art History to Cinema Studies to English to History to Linguistics to Music to Physics to Sociology . . . . Well, you get the idea. There is LOTS of intellectual curiosity and diversity at Penn, even if you haven’t necessarily found it yet in your Management 100 group, or on your dorm hall, or wherever (not that it isn’t in those groups or places, but just that you haven’t found or seen it yet).</p>
<p>I think Harvard and Yale will be just as competitive and it might be harder to find your niche as a transfer student coming in. Might be a freshman year experience all over again. I agree there are lots of diverse groups and clubs at Penn’s other colleges, you don’t have to plan all your extra curriculars at Wharton. Open yourself to these other options.</p>
<p>Silly Sam my S is at Penn as well and has experienced the same competitiveness for clubs that you have. I just want to say that yes there are tons of clubs but SS has picked ones he is interested in and is finding them competitive. Lets try to not make him feel like it is his fault for focusing on certain clubs. I will tell you SS the same thing I have told my son, you DO NOT need to be in as many things as you joined in HS so do not put that kind of pressure on yourself. And do not let other students make you feel that pressure. In my opinion the clubs you join in college should be for the purpose of making friends and meeting people with like minds so just keep plugging along. Do not worry that you must be in XX club e.g. because that is where all the top students end up. Also you say you like intellectual curiosity, maybe you are in the wrong major, most business students seem to have that pre-professional thinking. Does the Wharton curriculum let you try a class in one of the other colleges? :)</p>
<p>There are some good comments above sillysam12, so definitely take them to heart. My 2-cents from a parent’s perspective with a DS who is also a freshman in Wharton:</p>
<p>—You’re pretty much done with one year of a four year program and I assume you’re doing okay grade-wise since you haven’t said otherwise. So you’re 1/4 through one of the arguably top 4 undergrad biz programs in the US. I’d suggest sticking it out and searching to locate those friends / clubs that you’re currently missing, as “I’m not really loving it” (your comment) doesn’t sound very close to “I hate it here” (the latter quote would be a valid reason for looking elsewhere). Additionally, transferring to another top business program (1) isn’t easy, and (2) you’ll be in the same find friends / find clubs boat at your new school since you’d be a new arrival there.</p>
<p>—Friends: They’re out there. Get out to some activities and/or clubs that are in areas of interest that you enjoy, and the rest should follow. So what if your hang out spot isn’t Wharton-related? It’s a big college with a huge amount of options, many of which would no doubt challenge and interest you. DS’s hang-out is well outside the typical “Wharton box”…see 45percenters suggestions above in an earlier post for some ideas.</p>
<p>—Clubs: Yes, I was surprised to hear how competitive getting into some clubs is at Penn, and Wharton in particular. Applications…interviews (if you get past the application screen), etc. In many cases getting into the more popular clubs certainly isn’t like high school, when everyone was welcomed into any club they wanted to join. There are a fair amount of type A, driven personalities at Penn, and especially at Wharton. DS was turned down for several clubs, but thankfully came to the conclusion that he needed to apply to more clubs than he really wanted…kind of like what you’ll do when you’re applying for a job someday. I’m guessing that like a lot of other Wharton students you haven’t been turned down for a whole lot before, eh? Here are some links to Penn clubs (Wharton: <a href=“Student Profiles - Undergraduate”>Academic Programs - The Wharton School) and (non-Wharton: <a href=“http://www.upenn.edu/life-at-penn/groups_orgs.php”>http://www.upenn.edu/life-at-penn/groups_orgs.php</a>).</p>
<p>Summary: Stick it out unless things are worse than you’re describing. Friends and activities don’t often just come to you; you have to go out there and find them. Also, if you decide to stay at Penn / Wharton then decent grades, clubs, internships and interviewing should give you a high % chance at a dream job when you graduate, regardless of what field you end up choosing.</p>
<p>I was in SEAS and had friends in SEAS, CAS, Wharton, and even a few in Nursing. You aren’t getting out enough. I don’t think you develop relationships within your major/school as much as socializing more generally. I do think that even when I went, there were certain clubs, frats, and sororities that had reputations as “cold” to newcomers.</p>
<p>Penn in particular does let you take some classes in the other colleges. Since getting into Wharton is such an amazing thing, why not stick it out another year but take classes outside of Wharton to see what kind of fit they are for you?</p>
<p>You need to stick it out. Business people are competitive, you mean you didn’t know that before applying? It preps you for the real world.</p>
<p>Hi everyone, thanks for all your responses. </p>
<p>awcntdb, really? I heard Harvard’s acceptance rate was under 1%, and that most of those who had a “need” to go to Harvard (not just they didn’t like their current school). I’d love to hear more, if you have any experience. I do have good grades here at W (bc the competition in class is minimal), so perhaps there is hope (: As for your other comments, I realize that if, in the end, I end up in business, I may have to go to grad school for business if i transfer. but as far as i can tell, so do a lot of wharton kids. a bunch of the upperclassmen i know are taking the gmats to try to get into business school, and to me, i feel like i’d rather to go a liberal arts undergrad and a professional grad school (if need be). I wouldn’t transfer out of W to another business school… I don’t doubt that W is the best (or close-to-best, depending on who u talk to) UG business school. i’m saying UG business school wasn’t a good choice for me.</p>
<p>45percenter, thanks for your insight. Everyone seems to fit in well here, and it’s actually comforting to hear that others share the same problems. I have actually looked at Philo and Kelly Writers House, and I’ll try to look out for more opportunities for “intellectual curiosity.” I think the College is more pre-professional than you think. I’m know a bunch of kids in the College (they make up the majority of the school) and most are as or more pre-professional than Wharton kids. Most are trying to get into finance/med/law. And its not like I hate people who want a job… no i’m fine with learning some skills that will be useful later on in life. I’m hoping to have a private-sector job. I just think that Penn is too far on the pre-professional spectrum (Brown, for example, is too far in the other direction for me). </p>
<p>Ovrseasmom, thanks for your comment. I don’t really have a problem with competitiveness – in fact, I would kind of enjoy it if classes were more competitive. I’m a naturally competitive person (which is why I originally thought I’d like Wharton), but I find that a lot of the competition is more who you know and how “popular” you are rather than can you do the work… like I said in my original post, the classes are not competitive at all. As far as academics go, my high school (normal, public) was more competitive, and the kids worked harder in classes. Part of the reason why I don’t enjoy Penn is that most kids don’t care about classes, which is where a lot of the learning happens. From my friends at Harvard and Yale, that’s not exactly the case there. I realize it will be difficult to find my niche at HY or other schools if i transfer… IDK if the grass is greener on the other side or not, but i’m still thinking about giving it a shot. </p>
<p>Mamalumper, it is comforting ot know others are facing the same problem. I’m actually trying to do a dual degree in mathematics in the College. There’s a lot of pressure to stay in Wharton b/c the brand-name, but I’m hoping a dual degree will help me. I’ve enjoyed the college classes I’ve taken so far, but Wharton’s schedule doesn’t really let you take a bunch of them.</p>
<p>ivyparent, thanks for the advice. i’ll definitely start looking at other extracurriculars and for outside options to meet friends. I’m actually in a few clubs – it’s just that at Penn, the more prestigious clubs have all the resources and the excitement, and lesser clubs have, well, less. I feel a bit “stuck” – like I don’t have anywhere to grow. Just FYI: I’m not planning on going to another business school. Part of the reason for transferring would be to get OUT of business school and into a more liberal arts education. I know that Wharton does well with jobs – trust me, I think >half of the seniors are ibankers or consultants – but I don’t feel like I should need to spend my undergrad years just preparing for a job. Besides, if I go to H or Y, for example, i’ll have virtually the same shot at a good job after graduation. But you’re right, I guess I should try to go out and find friends/activities… I think if I found kids who shared my interest I would be in a better place. </p>
<p>DrGoogle, if I can be honest, I don’t really know why I applied to business school. I’m not only interested in business, and I guess I thought I’d have more options. that said, I really couldn’t say that the average Wharton student is overly-competitive. Like I said, in most of my classes, I’m one of the only kids who takes an interest in the subject. I get the feeling that everyone else just wants to figure out what they need to get an A, and I’d prefer people who actually want to learn. It’s a weird dichotomy… we were all chosen bc of our intellectual curiosity in HS, but when we get here, it’s all about the grades and then the job. I was actually sold on the “learning” aspect of HS.</p>
<p>EVERYONE: Thanks for helping me weigh the costs and benefits, and honestly I have a lot of thinking to do. Does anyone have any ideas of what i should do if I do decide to transfer? What are the admissions committees looking for? What do they love/hate? Examples are great.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone!</p>
<p>rhandco, could you, perhaps, comment on <em>how</em> you got out more and found friends? a bunch of extracurriculars are kind of shut off for me, so I’m having trouble finding a group of friends that I fit well into. I’ve tried to connect with people in my classes, but i havent found a group i have a lot in common with.</p>
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<p>Statistically, similar percentages of students in the College go into finance/med/law as do at most other top schools (including HYP). Additionally, the percentage of students in the College who go on to get PhDs is similar to that at other top schools. When you think about it, it makes sense given that all of these schools are full of similar academic high achievers. I mean, where do you think the undergrads in the other Ivies and top schools are headed?</p>
<p>Also, I’m not convinced that you’ve thoroughly explored the variety of academic and other interests represented in the College. For example, how many of the hundreds of English, History, Anthropology, Philosophy, Sociology, Physics and Astronomy, Classical Studies, International Relations, Communication, Urban Studies, or Cinema Studies majors in the College (just to name a few of the fields with 10 or more majors in each class of the College) have you really gotten to know, or spent time with discussing their majors and academic interests? And again, have you thoroughly explored or attended the many guest lectures and discussions that occur literally every day and evening on campus? Kelly Writers House and Philo are just a couple of organizations that host those and, again, KWH hosts them virtually every day. Further, I personally know of plenty of students in the College who are interested in an incredible variety of fields, and who do NOT plan to go into finance/med/law. Again, statistically, there are literally hundreds of students in the College–in fact, the MAJORITY–who do not.</p>
<p>So again, as a Wharton freshman, you really haven’t even begun to get to know the 10,000 undergrads at Penn in general, or the 6,400 in the College, and you probably haven’t gotten to know very many who have even formally declared a major (that happens by the end of sophomore year), let alone fully formulated their career plans. Once again, the academic interests and career plans of students in the College are, statistically and otherwise, quite similar to those of undergrads at virtually all of Penn’s peers. </p>
<p>Just curious, what type of clubs are competitive? I know for performing groups there are tryouts, but I wonder which other groups are not open? If there is a type of group that is competitive where you weren’t accepted, is there a less competitive version where you would still find people with similar interests? </p>
<p>Obviously, at this point it is too late to participate in new activities this year. If you do continue at Penn, I would say to investigate options for next year over the summer. If you can contact clubs, and get things lined up so that when you go back you have a running start. It only takes one connection and one friend to get you started. Once that happens hopefully the rest will fall into place. </p>
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<p>This was not my son’s experience at all at Wharton. He found most kids were smart, hardworking and loved their classes. Do you not see that all the study rooms at the library are booked solid and people are burning the midnight oil there?</p>
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<p>How do you know that “A” students are not there to learn?</p>
<p>Sorry but I don’t think you are credible given that you found your way to CC just to post negative comments.</p>
<p>@sillysam12, you state that “most kids don’t care about classes” which is a huge generalization to make about a school of 10,000 undergrads. All of my closest friends and I are (were technically since we are graduating in a few weeks) very invested in our classes and took several graduate classes in our major and did very intensive research. Those basically were my main extracurriculars since the classes I took were all very challenging and I wanted to master the material. We are all headed off to top science PhD programs in the fall, but I also took a lot of humanities electives beyond what was required by CAS.</p>
<p>If you really want to get the liberal arts education you describe, you need to swallow your pride and transfer out of Wharton. It seems like you are more willing to look at other schools like Harvard and Yale than stay at Penn because you somehow don’t think CAS is good enough for you. I have news for you, all of the Ivies have problems with the sorts of people you mention. Yale and Dartmouth students repeatedly write about the allure of finance jobs challenging the intellectual environment at those schools. I was talking with a grad student at Harvard (I am going there next year) and she said they have massive grade inflation which some students will try to take advantage of.</p>
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<p>@cbreeze - After reading this entire thread, it doesn’t appear to me that @sillysam has “found his way to CC just to post negative comments” at all. It seems like, instead, he found his way here because he is unhappy and looking for advice. He even provided very well-thought-out and detailed responses to nearly every person who replied to his query. Speaking negatively about his Penn experience does not necessarily translate into speaking negatively about the school, or about your son and his experience by extention. Clearly one institution can provide a myriad of experiences that vary with each individual. For example, my boyfriend is currently at Penn and I’ve heard him voice a lot of the concerns that sam has mentioned here. I think the best we can do for sam, and any future readers who might find themselves in a similar situation, is to be supportive, listen (or read, rather) with an open mind, and see what reasonable suggestions can be made in order to find him some relief. :)</p>
<p>I think people always cite pre professionalism as a downside of Penn because Wharton makes it so visible, not because Penn is that much different from other schools. I feel that for many people, this stops them from experiencing the more positive intellectual aspects of Penn since they choose to dwell on the negativity. I myself actually find the obsession with finance and other preprofessional fields that many students have here very irritating as I am very much skewed towards the intellectual type here (I probably would have fit in perfectly at a school like UChicago). However, the difference between me and people who are unhappy here is that I am able to appreciate the good I find in Penn, which I think most definitely override the negative. My specific research experience and professors I have had here have strongly shaped my interests today and my plans for the future. They have provided me with opportunities I would have been hard pressed to find anywhere else. My freshman and sophomore years, when I had become very dedicated to my major, I just happened to find two professors in my department who were among the first half a dozen people to start a subfield within my field of interest that has absolutely exploded in the past decade. There are literally over five hundred people doing research in this area. Not only that, these professors and the others with similar accomplishments I have met at Penn are all incredibly nice and thoughtful people who will be more than happy to talk to undergrads.</p>
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BINGO.</p>
<p>I’ve been trying to get this message across for decades. Pound-for-pound, Penn’s College of Arts and Sciences is every bit the equal of–and in some aspects actually better than–the undergraduate liberal arts components of its peers, in terms of numbers and types of top-10 and top-20 departments, research opportunities for undergrads, facilities, interdisciplinary programs and support, graduate and professional school placement (including Ph.D. programs), and internship and job placement. Yet, it continually gets painted with the broad brush of “pre-professionalism” because of the presence on campus of the most esteemed undergraduate business program in the world. But those who do so overlook the amazing breadth and depth Penn offers in the liberal arts.</p>
<p>To put it rather bluntly, instead of thinking of Penn as Wharton–and whatever pre-professionalism it brings–instead of the liberal arts excellence of a Columbia, Brown, Chicago, Duke, etc., people should think of Penn as Wharton and pre-professionalism PLUS the liberal arts excellence of those and other schools. In other words, Wharton adds to the academic breadth and depth of the Penn undergraduate liberal arts experience, and doesn’t detract from it.</p>
<p>And to those with liberal arts or “intellectual” interests who may complain that some kind of pre-professional peer pressure or competitiveness at Penn interferes with pursuit of their interests (and I’m not referring here to the OP or Poeme), my message is this: get used to it. College is a time of transition from childhood to adulthood, helping to prepare you for your adult life and, to some extent, career. Unless you plan on living your life in some small, isolated enclave cut off from the real world, you will be surrounded by those in business and the professions your entire life (in your urban or suburban neighborhood, among the other parents at your kid’s school, among friends and family, etc.). If you can’t sustain your liberal arts and intellectual interests at a place like Penn–with it’s world-class School of Arts and Sciences and the hundreds of scholars on its faculty and thousands of courses it offers, the daily and nightly intellectual and scholarly activities and ECs on campus, the amazing array of undergraduate research opportunities, etc.–you’ll find it virtually impossible to do so once you’re an adult living in the real world, with family and job responsibilities, etc.</p>
<p>A world-class undergraduate liberal arts education and experience is readily available at Penn. But don’t take my word for it. Just ask Harvard-Ph.D.-bound Poeme (and tens of thousands of others who are enrolled in or graduated from the College).</p>
<p>And by the way, Poeme: congratulations! :)</p>
<p>I’d write more but its finals time at Penn and I’m pretty busy. I just want to say for all the kids who are currently or will be making college decisions – THIS IS NOT A PENN BASHING PAGE. </p>
<p>I created this post because I don’t feel I fit in well with Penn’s culture, not because Penn/Wharton is not a good or happy place to be. I would not be surprised to find that Penn is the happiest ivy league campus. We’ve got parties, a great city life, doable classes, nice people, a beautiful campus, an excellent education both for business and the liberal arts, top notch professors, etc. etc. etc. I personally know several kids who turned down HYPSM and every other ivy league school to come to Wharton. Heck-- five minutes ago I talked to a girl who said she turned down MIT and Stanford because she liked the fact that Penn has dual degrees.</p>
<p>I talked to someone in the undergrad office, and they said that only a few others (<5) are transferring out of Wharton this year. They see virtually no kids transferring out. My guess is that if you gave every Wharton student acceptance letters to every school in the country, >80% of them would still end up at Wharton. </p>
<p>My experience is just that – it’s <em>my</em> experience. It doesn’t mean anything about the 10k other undergrads on this campus. </p>
<p>I made this post because I don’t think I fit in well at Penn. I’m more academically focused and less social. In high school, I was always focused on extracurriculars, and I chose Penn because I thought it was a “practical” or “working” school. I didn’t factor in how much I liked just learning for learning sake. And I think Penn’s culture is more on the “practical” and “social” side than the “thinking/theorizing” and “introverted” side. I did not make this post to discourage people from applying to and/or going to penn/wharton.</p>
<p>i agree that there are people on both ends of the spectrum here at Penn, and I should probably do a better job to find more intellectually curious people at Penn. I’ve found its kind of tough and the culture just doesn’t match me well. From what I’ve heard, I would fit in better at other schools. I disagree with posters who say that there is no difference in culture between schools: look at Brown and Penn. Are you going to say that these schools have the same culture? </p>
<p><em>Too long, didn’t read:</em> Do NOT take this post to mean that Wharton is a miserable, knowledge-hating place. Its a personal issue; I don’t fit in well. But I’m one person out of thousands, and basically everyone else loves it. If you want a top notch business education, a great social scene, city living, etc. come to Wharton! </p>
<p>Also, to return to the origin of the post, has anyone actually transferred out of Wharton? If so, can you tell me a bit more about why, whether it was a good decision, and how you did it (i.e. what makes a good transfer applicant coming from a business school to a liberal arts school)?</p>
<p>Just to reinforce what Poeme and I have been saying, you’re still viewing Penn from the perspective of a Wharton student (and one who’s only been there one year). Keep in mind that the overwhelming majority (6,400) of undergrads at Penn are in the College, pursuing majors and taking courses in the many “intellectual” (for lack of a better term)–as opposed to “preprofessional”–fields found in the College, many of which I’ve listed in my posts above. And when you consider that those 6,400 students in the College also are involved in a wide variety of “intellectual” and cultural ECs and activities (e.g., Kelly Writers House, Penn Humanities Forum, Philomathean Society, Performing Arts Council and its more than 45 performing arts groups, etc.), the 30-plus noncredit Preceptorials each semester, and the many research opportunities in virtually every department in the College, you have the same type of liberal arts community in the College that you’d find at Penn’s peers. In fact, Penn’s College is one of the largest undergraduate liberal arts programs and communities in the Ivy League, with as many liberal arts undergrads as there are at Brown. So it’s not that the “culture” at Penn is the same as it is at peers like Brown, but that Penn’s overall culture INCLUDES that substantial liberal arts component (which again is as big as it is at Brown), PLUS the added ingredients of Wharton, SEAS, and Nursing.</p>
<p>So what we’re saying is that you shouldn’t overlook the wonderful liberal arts community, culture, and experience that’s right there in your own back (front?) yard, and just assume that you have to transfer to one of Penn’s peers to find it. Not to mention that transferring from Wharton into the College would be SIGNIFICANTLY easier than attempting to transfer to another peer university. In other words, you might want to explore the College–and all of the academic and extracurricular opportunities it has to offer–before deciding to undertake the significant effort of attempting to transfer to one of Penn’s peers.</p>
<p>But whatever you decide to do, good luck with finals and the rest of your college career! :)</p>