<p>Our S is a HS junior hoping to attend a program where he can either (1) double major in music (trombone performance) and languages or science, (2) obtain dual BM/BA-BS degree, or (3) major in languages/science with music minor but have access to excellent trombone instruction. He has read about programs at Oberlin and Bard but we do not know much about quality of trombone instruction at Oberlin and faculty member listed for Bard, while well-known and highly accomplished, is primarily a bass trombonist. Northwestern, U. of Michigan, and Indiana University have well-known faculty but faculty instruction is primarily limited to music majors, and to our knowledge double majors/double degrees are not highly supported in these institutions (please correct us if we're wrong!). We would appreciate any suggestions re: these and other programs to consider.</p>
<p>tbone18, welcome. I’m not much help on trombone, but here’s a few titled threads to look through. You don’t specify a jazz or classical preference, and there’s some jazz specific threads that might be useful in his preference is for that genre. A couple of the programs mentioned such as Eastman/Rochester, Hopkins/Peabody, Depauw might work from a double major standpoint. Minors and teacher access/ensemble opportunities for non-majors are really all over the board, and you have to dig deeply to see the specific policies are. </p>
<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/691669-trombone-basic-advice-needed.html?highlight=trombone[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/691669-trombone-basic-advice-needed.html?highlight=trombone</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/524736-trombone-performance-school.html?highlight=trombone[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/524736-trombone-performance-school.html?highlight=trombone</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/313473-trombone-performance.html?highlight=trombone[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/313473-trombone-performance.html?highlight=trombone</a></p>
<p>The poster Running the Basses has a son that’s an MM student in 'bone perf at Mannes. Our sons were BM classmates at Hartt. You may want to try a pm if RTB does respond within the thread and see if you can get some input on specific faculty. </p>
<p>If you haven’t looked through it, there’s the thread here for general suggestions.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/6280-suggestions-colleges-music-majors.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/6280-suggestions-colleges-music-majors.html</a></p>
<p>The double major/dual degree question comes up frequently. Within the current thread here <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/844626-dual-degree-music-engineering.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/844626-dual-degree-music-engineering.html</a> and post #2 has some past thread links to those topics. </p>
<p>The link here specifically addresses music and a science.
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/72531-schools-have-strong-music-science-programs.html?highlight=music+and[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/72531-schools-have-strong-music-science-programs.html?highlight=music+and</a></p>
<p>Of those you mention, Bard mandates a second non-music major for all performance candidates. The poster N8Ma is Director of Conservatory Admissions and can answer any questions. Oberlin is very supportive of a dual pursuit, and BassDad is particularly knowledgeable when it comes to Oberlin. Northwestern if I recall will allow a dual pursuit, but I think the process is very selective above and beyond the admissions/audition process. The Hopkins/Peabody joint route is also very competitive. You may want to pm team_mom, whose son (horn perf) was admitted to both those programs with a double degree path. For UMich, you may want to pm kmccrindle. I’m not sure about IU/Jacobs’s policies.</p>
<p>And some past threads on a performance minor for general info:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/624789-what-exactly-music-minor.html?highlight=minor[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/624789-what-exactly-music-minor.html?highlight=minor</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/574858-music-minor-double-major.html?highlight=minor[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/574858-music-minor-double-major.html?highlight=minor</a>
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/388847-flute-minor.html?highlight=minor[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/music-major/388847-flute-minor.html?highlight=minor</a></p>
<p>I do not know anything more about the classical trombone teacher at Oberlin than is listed on the website. The facts that he is a former principal in the Cleveland Orchestra and has taught both at CIM and Oberlin suggest that he probably knows how to play the instrument pretty well and should be able to teach it too, but that is part of what sample lessons are for. The jazz trombone teacher there is pretty well-known in the jazz world. From hearing the ensembles there, I would say that both are attracting and producing some very capable students.</p>
<p>At Oberlin, your scenario 1 would be possible by obtaining a BA with a major in Music (with performance emphasis) and a second major in either a language or science. That would be done entirely through the college, but the principal applied teacher would be from the conservatory. Admission to the Music major would be by application at the beginning of the second year and admission to the studio would be by audition at the start of any semester. The disadvantage of doing it this way is that you have to commit to going to the school without knowing beforehand whether you will be allowed into the studio or into the Music major. The advantage is that it can be completed in four years if you have a plan going into the program and stick to it.</p>
<p>Your scenario 2 is their standard 5-year dual degree program in both the Conservatory and College. In this case, if admitted, you are guaranteed a spot in the teacher’s studio and get advisers in both majors. There is broad institutional support for the double degree program, with large numbers of students both starting and completing it. The current Dean of the Conservatory is an alumnus of the program, with degrees in Tuba performance and English lit. A science combined with music performance would be more difficult than a language, mostly because labs and ensembles both compete for the late afternoon time slots, but still possible.</p>
<p>Your scenario 3 is also a possibility there, but once again he would have to audition for a slot in the teacher’s studio once there. Most non-majors who take this path would be getting secondary (half hour per week for 2 credit hours) lessons rather than primary (full hour per week for 4 credit hours) lessons, but it is not entirely unheard of for a gifted non-major to be able to get primary lessons. Also, it is rare but not unheard of for a non-major to audition into the main conservatory ensembles. There are other ensembles in which he could participate, however. Also, if he were to be denied a spot in the teacher’s studio, he would have the option of studying at a very nominal charge with a third-year or fourth-year student who would be teaching with the guidance and support of their teacher.</p>
<p>Hi tbone,</p>
<p>As violadad mentioned I work at Bard. My guess is you already have all the basic information about our program; I just wanted to flesh out the picture a little bit more for you, with things not found on our website.</p>
<p>Rojak is a wonderful guy. I mean that sincerely. I do think it matters when someone is both accomplished as a player and has some human qualities to recommend. I really enjoy working with him, as do the students. In addition to teaching trombone, he coaches brass quintets (naturally) as well as teaches a “brass class” which mainly covers important orchestral literature, mock auditions, that sort of thing. </p>
<p>But I do know sometimes tenor players are a little leery of studying with a bass player. (A similar situation with singers–males studying with females or vice versa). I think a sample lesson would be the easiest way to clarify whether your son feels it will work or not.</p>
<p>We essentially have one brass section here, and they then play in everything. There’s no tiered orchestra system, or rotations in and out of ensembles, with graduate students getting the lion’s share of the best opportunities. Some brass players like having all the attention, others prefer larger schools where there’s 15 other trombone majors. Something to consider.</p>
<p>Currently we’re three horns, three trumpets, two tenors and a bass trombone, and a tuba. So we’re almost where we want to be in terms of numbers–a few more horns, and one or two more trumpets and tenor trombones ought to do it. Mind you, this is not due to a lack of interest–but as our program is so new, we prefer to grow smart rather than fast, and as I’m sure you well know the right kind of brass players are key. It took us four years to find a bass trombone player we really really wanted, and now that he’s here we know we made the right decision to wait. We hire professionals to cover extra brass parts as needed (this year we’re playing La Mer, Mahler 4, Tchaikovsky 4, Dvorak 9, and other big pieces like that, so it’s not limited by our current number of students). My guess is in 2011 we’ll have an opening for one or two, possibly three tenor trombones. </p>
<p>Interaction with other brass faculty occurs mostly in chamber music coaching and in the brass class. Rojak coaches one of our quintets, Carl Albach is handling the other this semester. Julie Landsman is retiring from the Met this year and she plans to be much more involved (above private lessons) starting next year. </p>
<p>As we are very ambitious, we recognize the need to recruit the most talented students with generous financial aid packages. So our aid is both merit- and need-based. </p>
<p>Ours is a mandatory double degree. The advantage to this is that the achiveability/comfort level of the double degree is shifted from the individual student to the institution; since we’re requiring it, it’s now our responsibility to ensure it works. And so far it has been very successful. Our students have a real sense of shared purpose, there’s no divisions between the “real musicians” and the double degree students, studio teachers aren’t asking “what the hell’s this chemistry thing you do?” around the time of the junior recital, and it’s the school’s job to work out ensemble requirements with the academic course schedule. Furthermore, a traditional liberal arts curriculum is deliberately free of huge time constraints. (I sat on a panel a few months ago with admissions folks from Harvard, Swarthmore, and Amherst, and when Harvard mentioned they were proud that their students only spent 12 hours a week actually in class, the others were quick to “me too” that sentiment). The idea being that all the free time in the week could be spent reading, working on your own projects, finding things to do of your own free will like make a film or write a novel, or invent Facebook. So in all honesty building a conservatory curriculum on top of a liberal arts curriculum isn’t quite as daunting as, say trying to merge it with an engineering or architecture degree, or a combined performance/music ed track (we offer an MAT degree for teachers but no undergrad discipline). So as far as the academic load is concerned, your son would be only marginally more “busy” than he would be as a music major at a top academic university with a rigorous general education curriculum like Northwestern or Michigan or Rice. I say might as well earn two degrees while you’re at it! And we fully support the endeavor, instead of adopting a “good luck with that” posture.</p>
<p>But I believe it’s worked because the students who choose to come here are 100% committed to the endeavor beforehand. I think some people wisely self-select out of applying to Bard because they’re not completely certain they’d like to earn a double degree. In this case I’d say the flexibility of Oberlin’s program would have appeal, as well as Lawrence University. </p>
<p>So that’s more about Bard at least. </p>
<p>How important is a school-supported ensemble? Your son could wind up at in a big city where it could be possible to arrange top-notch (out of pocket) instruction with a teacher, and then could find opportunities playing in any number of pickup or community orchestras, some of which could be quite good. The other route to consider would be simply to look at which universities appeal to him for their other language/science programs, knowing that by and large they all have orchestras. Heck, Michigan even has its on Life Sciences Orchestra, just for people in that school. You can find Cornell University’s orchestra on InstantEncore–they have a pretty nice sounding Shostakovich 10. </p>
<p>Some LACs have outstanding orchestras as well, that mix professional players with whatever students happen to be enrolled at the time–Williams and Vassar come immediately to mind. Amherst manages a formidable ensemble made up of just students. But know that any large university will have a “non-major” orchestra of some quality, even those that have schools of music. So in that case you could put the music question a little on the back burner, knowing it’s going to be taken care of, and investigate the strengths of various programs based on their majors. (I’m saying all this in case your son decides not to go the double degree route. And if you’re not certain yet, try reading this from David Lane at Peabody, it’s very useful: [Peabody</a> Institute - Conservatory Admissions: The Double Degree Dilemma](<a href=“http://www.peabody.jhu.edu/doubledegree]Peabody”>Double Degree | Peabody Institute))</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
<p>I don’t know where you get the impression that dual degree/double major is not highly supported at UMich. To my own experience, I can’t think of other school that is more supportive of these programs than UM. D’s former roommate is in cello and Environmental Science, current roommate is in bassoon (or clarinet, not sure) and Physics. A friend of hers went in as clarinet and Math. Although not a music student, I personally know a young man who is in Business and EE. There are a few string and voice double performance major as well. D is also a double performance major. I am sure there are more that I am not aware of.</p>
<p>I agree with pointegirl’s comments about Michigan, and I wanted to add that Northwestern also has a history of supporting double major/double degrees for music majors. For example, a year or so ago, I read an article about a Northwestern student who won a Rhodes Scholarship. She was majoring in piano performance, biochemistry, and the history of and philosophy of science and logic.</p>
<p>Thank you for your very helpful replies, violadad, BassDad, and N8Ma. We look forward to reviewing this information with our S. As relative newcomers to CC and the music exploration process, we appreciate the wisdom which you have so generously shared in this and your other posts.
Thank you very much for your reply as well, pointegirl. Our information re: double major/dual degree options involving music at U. Michigan has been limited, and it is helpful to learn that double major pursuits are well supported.
Thank you as well for the information re: Northwestern, rigaudon!</p>
<p>tbone, I sent you a (lengthy) PM.</p>