Truth Behind Horror Stories in Big Law?

Graduate School Law School
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<p>So many forums, sites, and articles seem to give personal anecdotal types of stories of the "horrors" of big law work. I'm not sure I could get much different here either, but why not give it a shot and ask, right?</p>

<p>Is big law really that "awful" (as they say) a place to work? </p>

<p>From what I've read, it requires 60 to 100 hours of work a week and a great deal of nastiness from superiors. </p>

<p>Now, I've also read about medical doctors experiencing a lot of harassment during residency from their superiors and a lot of arrogant doctors who go nuts over mistakes. I've just never been able to tell how accurate of a picture these sorts of stories painted and know if they were more on the biased side from disgruntled workers only. Doesn't every field have its horror stories? Is big law really that bad through and through?</p>

<p>What objective view of this world of corporate law can we trust?</p>

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<p>Think about it. Do you really believe that they would pay a liberal arts major (with three more years of schooling) $160k salary for only ~40 hours per week?</p>

<p>So yes, Big Law requires very long hours.</p>

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<p>There are many associates in Biglaw who are afraid to turn off their phones at night in case they get an email from a superior.</p>

<p>In medicine, bullying during medical school and residency is common, especially in surgical residencies.</p>

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<p>Not sure what you’ve read, but yes, it’s a major-league grind. These are the highest paid entry-level positions in law and it’s extremely competitive to get an associate job. The work hours are tremendous, and everything is tied to the magical “billable hour”. All that said, not sure what else anyone could expect for $160,000 per year.</p>

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<p>I’ve observed biglaw and residency from up close, working alongside young associates and young residents, although I have never been an associate or a resident.</p>

<p>The two jobs are vastly more similar than they are different. In general, the stories you’re telling do occur but are not the norm. Most partners at law firms, and most attending physicians, are relatively nice folks. They are serious, authoritative, very smart, and often not particularly outgoing, but they are basically decent people. Even the difficult ones are not truly nasty so much as they are self-important. Harassment occurs but is relatively rare, and law firms and major hospital systems have HR departments to speak to in such an event.</p>

<p>The hours in law are maybe a little longer than residency, but the real difficulty is that they are vastly vastly more variable. Most of the residents I know generally work 60-90 hours a week, every week. (There are some months that are lighter.) Most of the attorneys I know have roughly the same average – about 80 hours a week or so – but their hours fluctuate greatly. I’ve seen the same attorney work 25 hours one week, then suddenly get called in on a last-minute deal and work 120 hours the very next week with no warning whatsoever. I’ve known some attorneys to work for four days straight (naps in office), which medical residents are no longer permitted to do.</p>

<p>And, unfortunately, those times are also the times when partners get most upset and impatient. The lawyer is working those extremely long hours because something important and time-sensitive is happening, and the partner is often frustrated and anxious about it as well. So these times, when the associate is most fragile, are often where the partner has highest expectations as well.</p>

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<p>The financial stressors are similar despite being opposite. Both professions face extraordinary amounts of debt and are very concerned about paying it off.</p>

<p>Young attorneys have relatively little job security – although more than most blue-collar jobs, I should note – and are often fired with very little warning. Bouncing back from a firing can be very difficult, with legal unemployment being as high as it is.</p>

<p>Young physicians, on the other hand, are simply not paid very much. $50,000 is a fine income, but not for 80 hours a week while trying to service $180,000 worth of debt. On the other hand, they have excellent job security and are generally not fired for performance reasons; residents are only ever fired for major behavioral breaches. In fact, if a resident is performing dramatically under par, the usual remedy is not to fire them but to hold them back – that is, to keep them in the job for EVEN LONGER.</p>

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<p>A very informative post. Thank you for your perspective, bluedevil.</p>

<p>I actually wonder why it wouldn’t be a health hazard for lawyers to work four days straight. That does truly sound awful. I can see how in medical care that it could be an enormous liability if a tired resident or doctor made a mistake that would have otherwise been prevented (when well rested). </p>

<p>I can’t help to also just ask…were you being literal (no hyperbole at all?) about four consecutive days straight? <em>eek</em> Sounds not only unpleasant, but also for physical hygiene reasons a bit “nasty.” LOL I’m sorry, it just does. :slight_smile: Not meaning it in a personally offensive way to lawyers. Just seems quite an awful work circumstance.</p>

<p>How often would you think these consecutive all nighters take place in biglaw? More on the rare side or something like every few weeks (which would to me seem more frequent)? </p>

<p>Again, an interesting snapshot of some things I had wondered about. Appreciate the insights and comparisons very much.</p>

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<p>This is a serious question, but what of things like religious observances? Could this be allowed in biglaw if one is, say, a Catholic and believes in one day off (a week) for the Sabbath?</p>

<p>That being said, I would also imagine that having a good home/family life would be tough if always under constant “on-call” status like that.</p>

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<p>I do know someone quite well who took a big law job right out of law school. And yes, he slept on a couch in the office for sometimes up to a week at a time- showered at the gym in the building. He was absolutely miserable and had no time to spend that awesome salary. About two years in, he started trying to find another job that would let him have a personal life. He had a very difficult time finding one as when he could get an interview, people couldn’t believe he was a serious candidate- as in he was willing to take a pay cut of 50%. He finally landed a job as general council for a smaller corporation- still has very heavy hours, but was able to take a vacation with him family for a week in December (family being parents and siblings- hasn’t had time for a romance yet since GF dumped him during his big law days)- and this was his first vacation with more than 24 hours without a conference call since he graduated from law school</p>

<p>The bright side of this story is that he finally loves what he is doing, saved most of his salary from his big law days (as he had no time to spend it) and is drawing a comfortable salary now. My son is half way through law school and has NO intention of even interviewing for big law having seen all this unfold up close.</p>

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<p>It depends on the associate and the firm. My friend’s daughter is treated very well at her big name law firm. She is one of the favored ones due to the fact that she had clerkships with two judges and spent a lot of time with those ofices and was much admired there. One judge has been her personal mentor. But the usual case is that this is a culling process and the firm is only going to pick a few to move up in the firm, and they want the ones that will benefit the firm the most. </p>

<p>Getting the work done, and making the commitments are very important Ksannyu, as many othodox Jewish employees as well as devout Christians and those with other issues in their lives have found. If you are very good, so that your personal obligations and desires can be put into the big picture and you are still a better contributor, fine. But that is something such workers may have to compensate for.</p>

<p>I was an emotional wreck after a bad miscarriage. DH had a crucial presentation with a client and they flat out refused to reschedule when the situation was explained. He left and presented, the company got the account and DH made partner within the year. Had he left them hanging, he would have likely been out the job and the company out the account. I won’t forget that—I’ve seen the very people involved in this over time. That’s the way they operate and we all know what the golden rule is. When you are involved in jobs that have the most basic tenets of capitalism in place, you should know exactly what to expect. If it is repugnant to you, look elsewhere. There are fields where there is more leeway.</p>

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<p>Those are the exact types of things that make it sound unattractive to me as well. </p>

<p>I did ask another poster above too, but how often do you think those really awful awful consecutive all nighters take place? Are they just rare occurences or possibly more frequent like every other week? </p>

<p>To me, a rare occurence wouldn’t be pleasant, but possibly still something I could put up with. If a regularity, I would probably feel the same as your friend above!</p>

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<p>I can ask him- I am not sure how often he slept in the office but do know of three different instances where family flew across the country to visit him and he got called in to work. In all three cases he had the vacation scheduled and the family ended up touring the city on their own. And this was three times in only three years. We are in the DC area and he is in CA, so not like they can just go back next week. And no guarantee even if they could, that he wouldn’t get called in then.</p>

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<p>From what I’ve observed, it depends quite a bit on the group. I know some attorneys who have never done four days straight. I know some who have done it once or twice in ~5 years. I know a rare few who do it once every few months or so, maybe two or three times a year.</p>

<p>I have never asked what they do about showering, come to think of it.</p>

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<p>Back during the dot-com bubble, they were common. The last few days before filing an IPO is all hands on-deck, all night, and it can be several nights. We had attorneys, i-bankers, accountants and senior management working around the clock for 3+ days. The I-bankers napped and showered at the Ritz. The accounting junior slept in her car. :)</p>

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<p>“All that said, not sure what else anyone could expect for $160,000 per year.”</p>

<p>Um, to be paid handsome sums of money for their magical special specialness? </p>

<p>Sorry for the sarcasm - well, sort of sorry. I have no idea why a 25-year-old with a liberal arts degree, a JD, and no job skills would think that he is worth that much, let alone worth that much at 40 or 50 hours a week. People are paid well when they have scarce skills (or hard-to-obtain skills, such as being a physician), work extraordinarily hard, or take a lot of physical risks. Cushy office jobs in an overcrowded profession don’t pay well.</p>

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<p>There isn’t any way to generalize. It depends on the city, the firm, the partner, the client, and the individual. It also depends whether you’re trying to make partner or just trying to get by for a few years to pay off your loans. The horror stories are true, but not universal. If you want to be in biglaw with a slightly smaller salary and a more humane culture, you may find it in a smaller city. They spend a lot fewer nights on the office couch in Minneapolis or Phoenix as compared to New York.</p>

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<p>When you tour the office and they show you where the showers are, and show the employee cafeteria where you can buy your dinner every night, and tell you about the receptionist who can get a car for you at 3 am, don’t think “cool”…think, why do they have all this?</p>

<p>If you are young, no spouse or kids, and want to work on the deals that you read about in the Wall Street Journal, by all means, try for Big Law in Big City. But don’t get used to the money. You will learn as much in 2 years as others at smaller firms in smaller cities learn in 5, and your skin will turn gray because you will never see the sun. </p>

<p>In smaller cities, you can have a life. And really, doesn’t $110,000 in Houston buy more than $160,000 in Manhattan?</p>

<p>No matter what kind of pressure cooker you find yourself in, after around 2 years the headhunters will start calling and then you can bail, as long as you don’t need the same income as you had at Big Law.</p>

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<p>Thanks for the information, Vukwagon. I’m sure the biglaw young associates with 80-hours-per-week schedule could use a few more of those in their offices…</p>

<p>On-topic: Anyway, I don’t think it’s entirely true. If that’s the case for the majority, then there wouldn’t be too many people in big-law. It’s in the small minority of cases that are often talked about and exaggerated, and blown out of context sometimes. It’s like watching the news–a lot of bad news and not so many good news.</p>

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<p>Darn, my message didn’t post – sorry if this becomes a duplicate somehow.</p>

<p>Agree with the comments above about life as an associate in NY City. The challenge (and reward) of big firm practice in NYC is that it feels like you are in the center of everything. However, the client is not paying for good, or even very good work, they are paying for flawless work. That ups the ante on everything.</p>

<p>Firms have showers for a reason, and yes, lawyers keep a freshly drycleaned shirt in the office. I kept new stockings and complete make-up in my desk. While I pulled lots of all-nighters at a big firm (far more than college, that’s for sure), I had many more middle-of-the nights when I would finish at 3 or 5 am, get a car ride home, shower, sneak an hour or two of sleep if I could, then be back at the office for another 18-20 hour day. Once, in the middle of a deadline, I was in a car accident on the way home from work (I was passenger, seat-belted, in a taxi), no cuts but bruises and yes, whip lash actually is quite painful. I called my doctor, explained I could not stay home, and he said to take 4 Advil. I did, and continued to work through the project. </p>

<p>When you are in the middle of it, it is like a drug, or an alternate reality. Everyone else is doing it, so it feels normal. I was most miserable when I came back from vacation, having realized that my life was horrid. On the plus side, I had superb training, paid off my loans quickly, and moved onto great jobs. I was young, newly married, no kids, it was a trade-off that made sense in my life at the time. </p>

<p>So, while there may be some exaggeration in some of the stories, this is how it works. Agree that, why else would a 25 year-old, novice get paid an obsene amount of money. There is a cost to it, not just a benefit.</p>

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<p>The target or required billable hours for most biglaw firms is 1900-2000 hrs. Many biglaw firms have structured their bonuses according to hours. If you’re not billing 2000 hrs a year and up, you may not be bonus-eligible. If you expect to move up on partnership track, you should be bonus-eligible. Do the math on billing more than 2000 hrs a year and you’ll get a picture of the lifestyle. The operative word is “billing.”</p>

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<p>The thing you have to remember is that billed hours do not equal worked hours. Worked hours are almost always substantially more than billed. However, the $160,000 salary is deceptive. There are bonuses for passing the bar, bigger bonuses for having been a clerk, summer bonuses and year-end bonuses. A brand new clerk can make $200,000 in many large law firms because they are so desirable.</p>

<p>Being a junior associate is hard, tedious, exhausting work, no question about it. But there are worse jobs for far less money.</p>