Tufts #45 as Feeder School

Colleges and Universities A-Z Tufts University
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<p>"Tufts does not have an undergraduate business major and doesn't attract many students who pursue that route."</p>

<p>LOL, what do you think only people who major in Business go on to professional business programs? Please, that's no different than saying that there's no pre-law program at Tufts so Tufts doesn't attract individuals seeking to go to law school. Your assertion that MIT made the list only because it has a business program is unfounded, proposterous and given that the nature of this board is to provide potential enrollees with the most accurate information possible, malicious. </p>

<p>I think its way WAY, WAAAAAY more likely that MIT was ranked highly because its students are the best in the world with quantitative stuff and quantitative stuff is precisely what MBA's and jobs are looking for.</p>

<p>Engineering, Economics, Mathematics, the Sciences, anything quantitative is good prep for business school. They just want to know that you can handle the course load so no major in particular is necessary for MBA programs.</p>

<p>I'd like to know exactly what you mean when you say "A lot of Tufts students go onto to Ph.D's" as well.</p>

<p>But yeah, I'm sure this entire study is just complete BS and Tufts is unquestionably one of the most prestigous schools in the country and the like. My bad, Go Tufts, lol!!!</p>

22

<p>
[quote]
LOL, what do you think only people who major in Business go on to professional business programs? Please, that's no different than saying that there's no pre-law program at Tufts so Tufts doesn't attract individuals seeking to go to law school. Your assertion that MIT made the list only because it has a business program is unfounded, proposterous and given that the nature of this board is to provide potential enrollees with the most accurate information possible, malicious.

[/quote]

You cannot pretend that Tufts will attract, without a business or an econometrics major, the same statistical slice of students that a school with a business major would attract. Those likely to get MBAs have some interest in business and are likely to be turned off by a school that doesn't even offer it as a major. My assumption stands as valid. </p>

<p>Your comparison to "pre-law" is patently absurd. Students who want law school will seek strong humanities and social science programmes; students who want b-school will seek a school with strength in that area. The only requirement for my argument to work is that schools with strong undergraduate business programmes attract a higher percentatge of students who seek MBAs than schools without undergraduate business programmes would attract. </p>

<p>That is quite a logical assumption and is, really, self-evident. You also must remember that there is quite a lot of self-selection going on at universities. MIT and Williams are top, top schools, by any measure. Yet they attract very different students and have very different profiles of percentages who pursue law, medicine, and business. That does not imply that either school is lacking, or is bad, or that the person who points it out is "malicious." It is merely a statement that people with certain career goals choose different schools. A school without an undergraduate business programme and with every graduate school conceivable, save for business, may not be a logical choice for the person who is headed for an MBA.</p>

<p>Now, if you want to refute the people who did the study and said that MIT's b-school placement was its strength and reason for its high ranking, go right ahead. Just don't tell me that I'm "malicious" while you're doing it. </p>

<p>B-tch slap! :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'd like to know exactly what you mean when you say "A lot of Tufts students go onto to Ph.D's" as well.

[/quote]

Because you aren't exactly a brain trust, lemme spell it out: the rankings were based on attendance at three types of schools: law schools, medical schools, and b-schools. Ph.D. programmes were not included. The people who made up the rankings thought that law, medicine, and business were good proxies for a measurement of quality of graduate school placement. </p>

<p>One flaw: Ph.D.s are not included. An excellent undergraduate school will give its students (who seek a doctorate) excellent placements for PhDs. A hypothetical school could send 100% of its students to Harvard, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, and Princeton for PhDs, but would come in dead last in the rankings. This is a problem. A lot of Tufts students do not seek to go into law, medicine, or business, but rather seek a doctoral degree. I think it reasonable to assume that those who are admitted to top PhD programmes are capable of being admitted into top professional schools. Ergo, the study is flawed in that student self-selection away from professional school and into PhDs is inadvertently used as a proxy for lack fo quality.</p>

<p>RBAY, you are choosing to mis-read my posts. I guess it makes your scorn of Tufts a little more understandable - they did admit someone with your lack of reading comprehension abilities. The "rankings" were not a study. If you advocate for the veracity of any statistics, you should know the methodology behind them. Apparently, you were unaware of that methodology (which included using Facebook accounts, FYI). You then bash those who have the sense to look up the methodology. It is a very, very limited statistical analysis. A college that sends students to Harvard for a PhD does not grt credit for top placement of that student. A college that sends a student to Stanford Law gets no such credit. A college that gets super-talented students who go for econ PhDs instead of MBAs gets no credit for those students. </p>

<p>None of those facts are reflections upon my character. Your response, however, is unquestioningly a reflection upon your lack of character and intellect. </p>

<p>I would find your trashings of Tufts easier to swallow if they were accompanied by thoughtful, insightful commentary. Instead, they are accompanied by groundless arrogance and spite. </p>

<p>I focused on some very large problems with the "rankings." I am sorry that you could not respond with anything that approaches intellectual discussion. If you disagree, there are thousands of better ways to phrase your disagreement. There are intellectual responses. Your choice of the worst possible ways to respond is, again, a reflection upon your character and your brain, not mine.</p>

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<p>"Your comparison to "pre-law" is patently absurd"</p>

<p>It's an analogy. An analogy doesn't have to correspond perfectly to the real world, all it has to do to be effective is shed light on the point I was trying to make which was that a lack of a business program would not cause any huge drop in applicants who aspire to an MBA. Prove me wrong.</p>

<p>Most applicants to MBA programs do not major in business. You make it sound as though business was almost a requirement. Engineering, Economics, Mathematics, etc. all produce huge numbers of applicants to MBA programs. Business schools just want people who can handle quantitative courseloads. </p>

<p>Given this, there is no basis for assuming that the number of students at Tufts applying to MBA programs relative to the size of the graduating class is drastically different from that of the vast majority of the other 50 schools in the survey especially given Tufts HUGE number of engineering students (800) as well as Econ being the second most popular undergraduate major. </p>

<p>"One flaw: Ph.D.s are not included. An excellent undergraduate school will give its students (who seek a doctorate) excellent placements for PhDs. A hypothetical school could send 100% of its students to Harvard, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, and Princeton for PhDs, but would come in dead last in the rankings. This is a problem"</p>

<p>I'll agree that the study is incomplete. But flawed? No, sorry. A study is not flawed merely because it doesn't include Ph.D's. I mean, it would be flawed if the study was done under the banner of "Best Education in America." But this clearly demonstrates the top professional programs only. You're asking the study to include information that isn't even relevant to it's objective.</p>

<p>I see no basis for the conclusion that alot of Tufts students go on to Ph.D's, much less Ph.D's at Princeton, Stanford, MIT, etc. like you seem to be suggesting here. </p>

<p>"I guess it makes your scorn of Tufts a little more understandable - they did admit someone with your lack of reading comprehension abilities"</p>

<p>Blah, blah, blah RBAY you hate Tufts.</p>

<p>Psh, where have I ever once bashed Tufts? Show me. I do however question the dollar value of the education here. Am I a complete stain on humanity for thinking that Tufts might not be worth $40,000? I don't think so. I'm not looking for your approval though. If you want to attack my character and intelligence in a very deep way merely for holding this opinion than you're doing a greater disservice to this institution than anyone with an actual dislike of Tufts could ever hope to.</p>

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<p>Tufts has 170ish engineering students per class. Most go onto master's or PhD. Ergo, no business.</p>

<p>Most people I know from Tufts who went onto masters or PhDs are at Yale, CalTech, Berkeley, Stanford, and MIT. I don't have statistics, but I do know who of my friends went where. You don't have statistics, either. </p>

<p>
[quote]
You make it sound as though business was almost a requirement.

[/quote]

Never did. Again, your reading comprehension issue.</p>

<p>YOU are the one who thinks that this study shows that a Tufts education is not worthwhile. My point is that the study is very limited and doesn't take into account the value of the education for a lot of people who are doing PhDs. </p>

<p>Personally, if actually think that Tufts puts out the same number of MBA applicants as does MIT, that's your problem and your statistic to back up. Tufts simply does not attract that many business candidates. We get a lot of students who go to med school; some 1/5 of the class goes to law school; and we get a lot of IR people who don't want medicine, law, or business. I'm in touch with a bunch of grads, and I cannot think of a single one who is applying to or at b-school. MIT has a slew of people who go to business school. It doesn't, however, have our numbers for law school. </p>

<p>I love the way you backtrack. </p>

<p>There's nothing wrong with not liking Tufts. There is something, however, fundamentally wrong with someone who hates it and makes it his mission in life to trash it. "Like, omigod, Tufts only sends a few dozen kids a year to fifteen professional programmes. It totally s-cks as a school, man!" </p>

<p>I thought that Tufts was worth every cent. I've been very happy with my experience as an alumna. I know people who had never heard of the school - but there are a lot of people who only know Harvard, Yale, and football schools. I would have encountered the same problem had I gone to Williams or Amherst. Mostly, though, I meet people (in all parts of the country) who have heard of it and are very impressed with my education. It's never held me back and it's opened doors for me. There are a handful (two dozen, maybe) of schools in the country that do that for their alums. Those schools are not limited to Harvard and the "H-bomb." You go to one of those schools.</p>

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<p>Look, you might as well stop moaning about my reading comprehension. It's plainly obvious that I'm not stupid. The fact that I've been mopping the floor for the past week with some of what are probably the smartest students at Tufts, some of whom are undoubtably smarter than I, only proves that. The fact that I can hold my own in a discussion with someone that is a bachelors degree in Engineering and a law degree ahead of me in life while refraining from personal insults just proves that further. So please, you just might as well drop it. </p>

<p>There is no way you're ever going to be able to convince anyone here that I'm not intelligent, outgoing and abnormally good looking. It's just not going to work.</p>

<p>"There is something, however, fundamentally wrong with someone who hates it and makes it his mission in life to trash it. "Like, omigod, Tufts only sends a few dozen kids a year to fifteen professional programmes. It totally s-cks as a school, man!""</p>

<p>Oh brother, again, where did I say Tufts sucked? </p>

<p>I said it's not worth $40,000 a year for a middle class student. It isn't. Frankly I don't need this study to know that it isn't but I think anything that provokes impressionable 17-year old applicants to reflect on their decisions is a good thing. </p>

<p>If it could be shown beyond your word that a considerable amount of Engineering students don't go on to business then I'd concede the study is stacked against Tufts' favor. But all you have is your word. I know two individuals last year that went on to business programs from the engineering department. A relative did the same. It can't possibly be THAT uncommon...</p>

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<p>All right, kids, stop. Agree to disagree. </p>

<p>Let's talk about somethign new -- for example, check out my thread on ED II. I'm REALLY interested in hearing what other people have to say about it.</p>

27

<p>I for one don't know any engineers who're planning to go to business or med school, and only one who's planning to go into law. In fact I don't think I know anyone at Tufts who's planning to go to business school. I know quite a few ppl who plan to go to law or med school though. </p>

<p>All the Tufts alums I've met are happy and prosperous, and have only good things to say about their time at Tufts. Although admittedly none of them attended any of the professional schools in the study, they still seem to have done very well for themselves.</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
The fact that I've been mopping the floor for the past week with some of what are probably the smartest students at Tufts, some of whom are undoubtably smarter than I, only proves that. The fact that I can hold my own in a discussion with someone that is a bachelors degree in Engineering and a law degree ahead of me in life while refraining from personal insults just proves that further. So please, you just might as well drop it.

[/quote]

Haha! Sorry, I couldn't help but laugh. Here's something to consider: it's not a meaningful victory/holding your end of the argument if you're the only one that thinks so. Oh no! Did I just make an appeal to the imaginary masses?! I'll give you a headstart on your next reply - "wow such immature responses."</p>

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<p>If you are really concerned with impressionable students and whether Tufts is worth $40,000/year, you are setting yourself up for other questions. Are you presuming that some school would be worth $40,000/year? If so, which ones? What if you aren't planning on doing grad school? What if you are? What if you don't have any other good options - consider that most private schools cost at least $30,000/year? If you're from, say, Virginia, yes, you should probably go to UVA and save a pile of money. But I would say that even if Harvard were an option, because it's an excellent education and the differential in quality is questionable, so you would be paying a zillion dollars more for prestige only. </p>

<p>You aren't really refraining from personal insults, now are you? You've called us all sorts of names. </p>

<p>I am, door to door, at least ten hours away from Tufts. You claim to go there. Why don't you meander into Dowling and find out how many engineers go onto business school? Between about four people here, we know of, according to you, exactly two people who did business school. </p>

<p>I've mentioned the input/output issue before, and it has been mentioned many times on these boards. Different schools have different raw material to work with. I happen to think that Tufts students are, on the whole, extremely bright people. (Consider that Harvard claims that it can accept its class three times over of identically intelligent and capable students. Those virtually identical students are going to school somewhere. Not that Tufts is necessarily filled with them - the schools do look for different things in applicants - but Tufts students are freakin smart.) It is difficult to disentangle the quality of the sudents who are incoming with their successes later in life - and almost impossible to tease out the contribution of the school to those successes. </p>

<p>I'm still floored that the study went about its methodology in that way. No Stanford Law??? Um, hello! I'm also blown away that they didn't seek the information from the professional schools themselves; they used things like Facebook accounts. They admit that they could not account for every student - not by a long shot. It also really favours schools whose students go straight to professional school. </p>

<p>Still on that Facebook thing....</p>

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<p>"Are you presuming that some school would be worth $40,000/year?"</p>

<p>I think so. Not more than a handfull though.</p>

<p>I think it might be worth paying $160,000 to go to Yale or MIT. Realistically I don't think that paying $160,000 to go to Tufts or Bates would be a wise decision for folks who have money issues. </p>

<p>"You've called us all sorts of names."</p>

<p>Again, show me where I've called anyone a name. </p>

<p>Why don't you stop just making things up just because I accidentally opened up some deep emotional pain of yours by saying Tufts isn't prestigous. Thanks :)</p>

<p>"it's not a meaningful victory/holding your end of the argument if you're the only one that thinks so"</p>

<p>I'm sorry you don't think so, but there's no other way this discourse could be read. Tufts most likely isn't worth $40,000 for a middle class student. I've yet to see a single shred of evidence that would suggest otherwise.</p>

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<p>I'm 100% behind rightbackatyou. It's mind boggling how touchy the Tufts kids are here. Apparently they don't understand that this is a <em>discussion</em> board and that from time to time, some people will have opinions and thoughts that actually contradict what they think. Heaven forbid. Perish the thought! I love the Emperor's new clothes!</p>

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<p>Wow, Defender's first post on CC is to defend Rightbackatyou. Interesting...</p>

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<p>See, I disagree that MIT or Yale would be worth $40,000 and Tufts would not. Hate to break it to you, but, unless you're going to be an investment banker or an engineer, you aren't going to make more than $30,000/year when you graduate. Prestige doesn't mean that your local newspaper will pay you more money. Your engineering firm won't pay you more money. It might help you get your foot in the door, but you're still getting your foot in the door on an entry-level job. Face it. </p>

<p>If you go to grad school, then you're silly to pay $160,000/year for ANY education if you have money issues. Grad school is so expensive, and merit aid at professional schools is so limited (i.e. virtually non-existant), that it doesn't make sense to put yourself in the hole for undergrad. It really does not matter which undergrad school you go to. If you want merit aid, you have to have done really really well wherever you went, and it's hard to stand out at Yale.</p>

<p>For me, Tufts was worth the money. I woul d not have been able to have my combination of majors at many other schools; I would not have been able to be in such a good environment for women in engineering. I certainly would not have been able to do both majors and graduate in four years... so the fact that I got out in four, IMO, saved me a fifth year of tuition. Mostly, I see the difference between a private school education and a public school education, and I don't think it would have been worth it to pay $60,000 for UMass Amherst. (Tuition waivers for top students cover only about 7% of the cost.)</p>

<p>The thing is, it's not like there's a Tufts equivalent school that only charges $20,000/year. There are worse schools that charge just as much. Your argument about Tufts "not being worth the money" is actually pretty senseless. In a free market, things are worth what people pay for them. You will get a fantastic education. You'll get small classes. You'll meet professors who are tops in their field. You'll have really nice job opportunities when you graduate. </p>

<p>You seem to think that going to Harvard or Yale is writing your ticket to life. No. You don't get to become a doctor or lawyer straight out of HYPSM. You still, like the unwashed masses, have to go to graduate school. You have to pay for graduate school. You will still start on the bottom, like everyone else. </p>

<p>If you have money issues, you shouldn't pay $160,000 for college, period. Even if you're an engineer at MIT, you could go to UMass Lowell, be an engineer there, and have nearly the same job opportunities and the exact same salary. Except for the few folks who will end up working at Microsoft, there isn't much disparity in salary. Even then, go to graduate school. If you're smart enough to get into MIT, you would do extremely well at ULowell and would have plenty of opportunities for graduate education. The grad school will trump the undergrad. </p>

<p>Dirty little secret about college costs: they are very often worth ONLY what you can afford to pay. </p>

<p>I know a lot of HYP AWS grads. Their lives are not blessed from the heavens because they are graduates of those schools. They don't touch things and have those things turn to gold. They don't have an aura or their own personal groupies that follow them around. You are substantially overestimating the "value added" of the prestige of a school. Those kids are freakin smart anyway. Having "Harvard" on a diploma doesn't help as much as you think it does, nor does having "Tufts" on your diploma hurt as much as you think it does. </p>

<p>You've seen evidence otherwise; you just ignore it, because it doesn't fit in with your 'tude. Face it - you have done NOTHING on CC except to say that Tufts is overrated, that it's not worth the money.</p>

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<p>The hole you've been collectively digging just keeps getting deeper...</p>

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<p>Thank you for blessing us with your wise and deep thoughts, Oh Brilliant One.</p>

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<p>"Wow, Defender's first post on CC is to defend Rightbackatyou. Interesting"</p>

<p>LOL, it is pretty weird I'll give you that, but it's not what you're suggesting. Look, dude writes in a totally different style. C'mon now, I'm not nearly as caught up in this prestige battle as you all are...</p>

<p>"Having "Harvard" on a diploma doesn't help as much as you think it does, nor does having "Tufts" on your diploma hurt as much as you think it does"</p>

<p>Yeah, like I've ever said having Tufts on your diploma would hurt you. Look if you're willing to admit that no education is worth $160,000 if you're either a. going to grad school or b. have money concerns than that's fine. That's all I've ever wanted anyone here to admit to because frankly I couldn't care less about the Harvard-Tufts thing. So thank you.</p>

<p>However, outside of this board (the Tufts board) there isn't a soul on earth that would back you in the claim that a Tufts degree is worth as much as a Harvard degree. Somewhere deep down inside in places you don't like to talk about at parties I think you know that, but do what you gotta do to keep appearences up around here ;)</p>

<p>That's not a reflection on Tufts not being great, that's a reflection on Harvard being amazing.</p>

<p>Again, Tufts is a great school but in my own experience the education I was receiving at my state honors college was at least equal if not better than what I've received here. I'm sorry, but I really don't know what all the fuss is about Tufts or what any of you have to compare it to. I mean, I'm not saying it's not a great education but I expected it to be phenomenal. </p>

<p>I didn't expect to come here and see so many students who either don't care or only care a little. Several students in my class just the other day were rolling their eyes and moaning 'gross' as our professor read to the class. He was reading from a little book called "The Iliad" and it really hurts to see that type of **** going on, you know? It hurts to hear professors (again just this past week) saying that they think the material is boring. It hurts when I get back papers whether it's an A or a B with two and three word responses from the professors...</p>

<p>...I'm no expert on colleges but these experiences, while subjective, cannot simply be washed away with "luck of the draw." </p>

<p>Perhaps my expectations were to high but why shouldn't they be. You get into one of the better schools in the country and you're paying $40,000 I think it perfectly reasonable to expect to be blown away.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
LOL, it is pretty weird I'll give you that, but it's not what you're suggesting. Look, dude writes in a totally different style. C'mon now, I'm not nearly as caught up in this prestige battle as you all are...

[/quote]

Bait and switch. Question: are Defender and RightBackAtYou the same person? Answer: No, RBAY isn't as "caught up in the prestige battle." Um, no, babe, that isn't a good answer. </p>

<p>
[quote]
However, outside of this board (the Tufts board) there isn't a soul on earth that would back you in the claim that a Tufts degree is worth as much as a Harvard degree. Somewhere deep down inside in places you don't like to talk about at parties I think you know that, but do what you gotta do to keep appearences up around here

[/quote]
As an engineer, I heartily disagree. As an engineer who double-majored, which Harvard would not have let me do, I further disagree. It has nothing to do with keeping up appearances - I really think that I got a fantastic education that could not have been better. I would not have gotten my engineering job if I were a Harvard grad; they didn't hire people from Harvard, believing that it wasn't "real engineering." </p>

<p>
[quote]
Perhaps my expectations were to high but why shouldn't they be. You get into one of the better schools in the country and you're paying $40,000 I think it perfectly reasonable to expect to be blown away.

[/quote]

Well, my law school costs about that per year. There's definitely upsides and downsides to the education; I have a few (really big) complaints about my school, but, for the most part, I think it was worth it. Most of that is because I did NOT go to other schools that are equally ranked - didn't even apply - because I know that they would not provide me with what my school has. We get small classes. We get professors who care and stay after class to talk to us. We get an administration that runs smoothly and works with us. Then again, not all schools do that - some of them cost a ton more money and don't do that - but I sought that out with my law school. </p>

<p>It is, in many ways, comprable to Tufts in that regards. Most of my Tufts professors were excellent. Most of the students (engin. and classics) were extremely intelligent, hard-working, ambitious, and passionate people. </p>

<p>I did have a few large problems with professors (two profs, to be specific). I do think that some of what I went through could have been avoided if I did things differently (I had difficulty getting a prof to work with me when I was very ill and had to miss class for doctor's appointments) - I should have gone to a dean and had the dean wave a magic dean wand. (I do advocate that parents with sick kids go over prof's heads, immediately, and talk to the administration for this very reason.) </p>

<p>Nevertheless, college should have been a nightmare for me. I was stalked, attacked, abused, had a tumor, was hit by a car, had a family member attempt suicide and went into rehab for psychatric issues, had chronic pain, and a few other things that I'm forgetting at the moment. Those are the lowlights. Despite that, I had professors who worked with me so that I could make up my work, learn the material, get both my majors done on time, and helped me with career advice. I had profs who invited me over to their houses for dinner. After graduating, I still went out to lunch with some of my professors and kept in touch. The pre-law advisor opened her doors and helped me with my law school applications, even though I had graduated. My friends are wonderful people - for some reason, I found friends better than I deserve. College should have been hell, but I loved every second of Tufts and know, unquestionably, that it would have been a worse experience anyplace else. I managed to get an education even as I single-handedly drove up the cost of healthcare. </p>

<p>Yes, I have a few complaints. But I'm not sure what else that Tufts could have done that I felt like I was missing.</p>

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<p>You guys, please. All right. Rightbackatyou has not had as great of an experience at Tufts as he expected, so he wants to transfer. Understood. Ariesathena had a great experience at Tufts and wouldn't change anyhting. Understood. Let's talk about something more constructive, and help kids considering Tufts by answering their questions, giving information on our personal experiences (positive and otherwise), etc. as this is the main purpose of CC.</p>

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<p>"Um, no, babe, that isn't a good answer." </p>

<p>Fine, go ahead and assume we're the same person for all I care. I simply don't say things like "I love the Emperor's new clothes!"</p>

<p>And did you just call me 'babe?' God I love that. I'd be lying if I said your sass over the past few days hasn't been extremely appealing to me...</p>

<p>I guess what I'm trying to say is will you marry me?</p>

<p>"and a few other things that I'm forgetting at the moment"</p>

<p>You forgot to mention 'the tractor incident,' the race riots and getting mauled by a circus lion.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Fine, go ahead and assume we're the same person for all I care. I simply don't say things like "I love the Emperor's new clothes!"

[/quote]

Why not? Channel your inner Valley girl. Extra points if you can squeal at the end. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And did you just call me 'babe?'

[/quote]

Fine. I'll call you "dude" and grunt in your general direction while scratching my she-man balls. Would that make you happier?</p>

<p>
[quote]
You forgot to mention 'the tractor incident,' the race riots and getting mauled by a circus lion.

[/quote]

  1. I might say y'all, but I'm not a redneck. Redhead, not redneck.<br>
  2. Not all Southerners are involved in race riots. Really, they interfere with drinking mint juleps, shooting, and horse races.<br>
  3. No circus lion maulings yet. I haven't had animal problems since I was bitten by a mouse, in my sleep, while living on College Ave, which, aside from the threat of rabies, it isn't worthy of note. The closest animal that's come to killing me was a portuguese man-o-war that stung me when I had pertussis.</p>