<p>NYU</p>
<p>Personally, I agree with you on Tufts vs Penn. However, I suspect these days that Tufts may be a lot closer than either of us think it is.</p>
<p>Honestly, given that the two schools offer considerably different atmospheres and would provide different experiences, I think they’re close enough that choosing Tufts over Penn based on the intangibles would be the right decision for a lot of students.</p>
<p>As I stated previously, you have ever write to critique the methodology that any of these links derived their conclusions. </p>
<p>The links do provide rankings (not all) but they also provide “overlap schools.” That’s the key thing.</p>
<p>Let’s go through each one you critiqued -</p>
<p>Newweek/ DailyBeast: You focused on NYU which it didn’t list overlap schools. It did for Tufts (check it again). I would assume “overlap” and peer mean the same thing.</p>
<p>Princeton Review: I assumed that suggested colleges meant ones that were similar. I can’t verify that. But I would be surprised if they recommended Liberty University while looking at MIT. But your argument, NYU, I think is fair to make. But that’s why I provided multiple links, eh?</p>
<p>Parchment: I think you didn’t look hard enough here. You said “The parchment ‘ranking’ has nothing to do with being peer institution.”</p>
<p>It actually says at most right hand column “Peer Colleges.” I am pretty sure “Peer Colleges” and “Peer Institutions” mean quite the same thing. You probably focused on the ranking aspect of my links. I was just highlighting where these things share overlap / peer schools. I think this speaks more to the idea that people focus so much on rankings that they miss some of the nuances that such data sets try to communicate. </p>
<p>So it’s not about the rankings, but rather multiple sources of what is considered overlap / peer institutions. But I also agree that like rankings, these can be arbitrary (hence why I provided multiple ones - though it’s fair to say that all are arbitrary). </p>
<p>Obviously anyone can critique the methodology, the way people derive overlap schools, etc. And that’s fair game. But to claim that it’s not a peer institution to ANY ivy (what informative stated - keyword, any) seemed a little far-fetched to me. So I highlighted different places which highlight ivies as overlap to see if I ‘far-fetched’ in that thinking (that is, if I was alone in thinking that). It’s very reasonable to critique the rankings itself. Yet I was merely pointing out the overlap schools.</p>
<p>Are these perfect? No. Are they subjective? Of course. But to the reason I listed many is that you see some names pop up that belie informative’s assertion. Obviously there exists inconsistencies, outliers, etc. I think that speaks to the highly subjective nature of all of this. And that’s just the basic level. From there you could separate it in regards to specific niches like what a person wants to study (e.g. in this instance the OP was wanting to study IR). The arbitrariness doesn’t end!</p>
<p>As for the strawman claim, as silly as this is to answer, it was in reference to utilizing my past posts as an implicit argument to belittle evidence I had provided that countered the claim tufts isn’t a peer to ANY ivy. Maybe you shouldn’t rely on wikipedia when you try to point something out like a strawman argument. ;)</p>
<p>I totally agree with you, zephyr15. Cheerio.</p>
<p>Just pointing out that I would have chosen Tufts if not for the money. I didn’t want to start out a career in non-profit work with $24,000 in loans hanging over my head. I really loved Tufts, enough that I really wanted to choose it over UPenn I just couldn’t afford to.</p>
<p>If I were to start at Penn over again, I’d opt for housing of any type in the Quad.</p>
<p>@buzzers</p>
<p>Listing school as ‘overlaps’ merely means that students who usually apply to X also apply to Y.</p>
<p>Why isn’t Tufts a peer school of UPenn? </p>
<p>Penn’s research output and research impact is greater than that of Tufts’. </p>
<p>Penn’s academic reputation exceeds that of Tufts’:
According to USNews Penn’s peer score is higher than Tufts.
According to QS Penn’s academic reputation is 98.5, while Tufts’ is 27.4
The USNews high school counselor ranking puts Penn above Tufts as well.
The Time’s reputation ranking puts Penn at 18, while Tufts is not in the top 100. </p>
<p>Penn’s employer reputation exceeds that of Tufts’.
According to QS Penn’s employer reputation is 96.2, while Tufts’ is 23.6.</p>
<p>Now, in regards to the straw man fallacy. Yes, I did copy paste from wikipedia because I didn’t really feel like typing something out. But you definitely should have looked up what a straw man fallacy <em>actually</em> is before claiming informative’s post committed a straw man fallacy - in fact, it did not. </p>
<p>Informative drew attention to your post history and gave that as a basis for questioning the potential biases in your post - that’s blatantly not a straw man fallacy. The closest to a fallacy you’re going to get is a red herring called ‘poisoning the well’, but I assure you it’s not a straw man fallacy. </p>
<p>Please don’t accuse someone of making a fallacy when you’re not actually familiar with the type of fallacy you’re trying to accuse them of making. Indeed ‘straw man’ is two words, not one.</p>
<p>“I think they’re close enough that choosing Tufts over Penn based on the intangibles would be the right decision for a lot of students.”</p>
<p>Agreed. Penn is a stronger institution. But the deep-in-the-city location, big Greek life, and preprofessional atmosphere at Penn are not for everyone.</p>
<p>@eveiveneg you should be happy and calm, you made a great decision :)</p>
<p>@NYU</p>
<p>This will be my last post on this because this is getting pretty futile.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>You completely ignored everything i said. I was referring to the idea that informative said wasn’t on par to ANY ivy. You just isolated Upenn.</p></li>
<li><p>All of your sources go back to what I was saying - I am not referring to rankings; rather, to see if other entities believe it is similar to those schools.</p></li>
<li><p>Even if i buy your argument that ‘overlap’ meant people also applied to other schools, that’s a pretty weak argument. Especially when you see what’s listed for other schools. And also considering the definition of overlap (hint: use a dictionary and see the entry “to have in common with”). But even if I fully buy into it, you still ignore the parchment data which actually says peer colleges.</p></li>
<li><p>Let me repeat this since you ignored this - the parchment says peer colleges and it lists ivies. Which coincide to other links. Ironically, your response was more of a strawman than I would have expected. ;)</p></li>
<li><p>Your links are funny and miss several things. For example, ,QS, Times, etc. utilize graduate school programs. Tufts is well regarded in medicine and IR for grad school (and the op was going for IR). It’s more of an undergraduate focused institution (it has liberal arts roots). Sooooo…not sure what you are trying to prove. That penn has better graduate schools? Tufts doesn’t even have a business or law school! And Times is really weird. It also isn’t consistent with your other sources. For example, Times rankings has Dartmouth at 124 while Tufts is at 87 (this is their regular rankings). Again, I was refuting the ‘no ivy is a peer.’ But more importantly, this isn’t an apples to apples comparison. Tufts is undergraduate focused. Most would contend Tufts has a great undergraduate focus. And that it’s highly regarded in IR. You also miss the point that i wasn’t focusing on any kind of rankings, especially ones that include graduate schools.</p></li>
<li><p>Then we have US news. Cool - US news peer scores. So I guess Penn is better than Caltech? And G-town, Carnegie Mellon, and Upenn are on the same level (based on high school counselors)? And you know that those are heavily done by secretaries, right (google this and you will find an interesting article in the chronicles of higher ed)? But this goes back to you focusing on rankings. The peer score is also weird because Tufts traditionally does poor in this. But it’s not based on a 1-1 way (e.g. not head-to-head). And there is another inconsistency: the college counselor and the actual peer score are vastly different. It’s also arbitrary in the way you measure peer schools (which I alluded to) - to we do it based on student scores? Perhaps starting salaries? Maybe how much they volunteer?</p></li>
<li><p>And, if you want to talk about specifics, we could talk about IR. Is penn a peer to Tufts in IR? I don’t know. Again, you are trying to say I was talking about penn when I clearly was answering any Ivy (straw man, eh?) as well as contending that you have to contexualize things (e.g. going for IR or Business or whatever) .</p></li>
<li><p>The strawman I was referring to is considered a sub-strawman argument. See Edward Damer’s book. But the fact that you actually did the traditional straw man with your own post and spent the rest of your time on this is hilarious. In fact, I am just going to say you are completely right 10000% on the this straw man logical fallacy point because the irony is just priceless (e.g. that is, assuming I meant only penn, bringing in graduate schools, excluding the nuances (like IR), etc.). And I will end on that note.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Cheerio</p>
<p>@ buzzers</p>
<p>(1) Really? You’re going to try and alter your argument so you don’t look wrong? Let’s quote you “That’s why a lot of people view Tufts and Upenn as comparable schools”. Your claim was clearly that Tufts and Penn are peer schools. I ‘isolated UPenn’ because that was the relevant ivy. So your claim that I have committed any type of straw man is, yet again, false.</p>
<p>(2) I think you need to learn how to use a dictionary - overlap “to have in common with” YES! VERY GOOD! They have the same applicants in common! That’s like looking on collegeboard.com and looking at their “overlap” schools. Collegeboard says “overlap” schools are merely the top 20 schools students most often viewed if they also viewed Tufts. </p>
<p>(5) I realize that what I’ve provided includes graduate schools… Thanks for letting me know something I already knew? Again, you’re attempting to alter your argument. You’ve gone from the claim ‘they are comparable schools’ to ‘the undergraduate focus of Tufts, etc.’. You’ve attempted to make your argument more specific to refute information which contradicts your original statement. </p>
<p>(6) Do you not know about own your sources which you’re trying to cite? Parchment ranks schools based on cross-admit battles. The ‘peer schools’ of Tufts are those which are ‘peers’ from the perspective of students in different geographies based on student selection in cross-admits. Apparently graduated seniors are in a position to know which schools are ‘peers’? </p>
<p>(7) While Tufts is well-reputed in IR, that doesn’t mean that, on the whole, Tufts is a peer of Penn, (or any ivy). Since OP wanted to study IR, Tufts certainly would not have been a bad choice. But, this argument that you have to contextualize things isn’t your original claim. Sure, if you want to do a breakdown by subject Tufts will be beat Ivies and even Penn for some subjects, for others it wouldn’t. I studied at NYU, which for my subject is ranked #1 in the world, but I don’t claim ‘NYU is a peer of Harvard’. The claim that ‘NYU is a peer of Harvard for subject X’ is a qualified claim which lacks the same generalized meaning of the first claim. This claim is not the original claim you were making, so an attempt to ‘refine’ your claim to this qualification is only a move someone makes when they’ve been shown contradictory information. </p>
<p>(8) Do you study philosophy? It doesn’t appear that way. Simply looking at Damer’s book he defines a straw man as “misrepresenting an opponent’s position or credible argument, usually for the purpose of making it easier to attack.” A straw man is classified as a ‘fallacy of diversion.’ Again I reiterate, what informative did was not a straw man. Even Damer’s book will tell you that - see ‘poisoning the well’ (as I told you before) which he defines as “Rejected a criticism or argument presented by another person because of his or her personal circumstances or improper motives.” Indeed, informative questioned your assertion based on your personal circumstances, which seemed as though you have a relationship to Tufts. That’s a textbook case of poisoning the well. Please, like I said, before you criticize people of committing fallacies learn what a particular fallacy actually is rather than vaguely thinking that you know and throwing around a clearly inaccurate accusation.</p>
<p>Regardless of whether or not you were saying Tufts is a peer of any Ivy or UPenn neither statement would be true.</p>
<p>Is it a peer school if you are talking about specifically IR? Maybe</p>
<p>Whew, after trying decipher all this back-and-forth, all I can say is it seems the
well has been poisoned by both parties. Having a “relationship” with a school can also include having been denied admission from it. Any sour grapes from either party tainting the running argument? </p>
<p>The obsession with peer status, schools’ reputations vis-</p>
<p>@ gondalineNJ </p>
<p>Having never applied to either school as neither was good for my undergrad area of study, I’m indifferent to either. Both are excellent schools.</p>
<p>The only way to try and judge a school’s ‘caliber’ is using quantifiable metrics - e.g. peer assessments, citations, reputation, etc. so I fail to understand how it supposedly ‘doesn’t reflect well’.</p>
<p>How are reputations “quantifiable”? And where is the “metric” that supports your first comment that opportunities are likely greater for a Penn student since Penn is the “top” school in the area (take that, Swat and Haverford!), while those for Tufts students are diminished by sheer dint of being a lowly #3 or #4 or thereabouts among Boston schools? </p>
<p>Seems the hackles are raised on CC whenever any school is claimed to be a peer of another more-perceived-as-prestigious (or actual? again, metrics?) school. And the narrower the gap between the schools, it seems the more vehement and desperate-sounding the dialogue. </p>
<p>Heck, the OP triggered the argument, since his original question expressed concern over prestige, so guess his questions are being answered?</p>