<p>The truth is that Notre Dame, like many selective private schools, is a much better school than it was when our generation of college parents were undergraduates. The admissions standards are higher, the faculty has better credentials, and the university as a whole has a much higher ranking.<br>
And I'm not sure why the Dean of Engineering was "very sad" about his students working for defense contractors. It's my understanding that such jobs are, or were, considered plums by many engineering grads, and certainly it can only be a good thing that employees of such firms include the graduates from the top Catholic school in the country.<br>
It is sad when any student incurs sizable debt and then cannot find employment, but that happens to students attending public universities as well, especially those who major in fields such as anthropology or communications. All the more reason to take finances into account when choosing a college.</p>
<p>yes, I do admit that I would not have gotten in now, much more difficult. But what was nice back then (late 70's) is that there was no such thing as a USNWR ranking, and you decided to go to ND mostly based on the fact that you were Catholic and that is was your parent's "dream" for you to attend.</p>
<p>As compared to choosing a college that best fits you or something like that, that does sound very "nice."</p>
<p>All of the top tier universities have lost touch with reality. I am an ND grad ('82). The cost of an undergraduate degree is up approx 5x in the last 27 yrs. While, it is difficult to place a value on an eduction, one way is to look at opportunities upon graduation. A business major in 1982 landed a job at a starting salary of $20,000. While the business college has improved its standing among business schools in the last 27 years, I doubt that recent graduates are commanding $100,000 starting salaries.</p>
<p>My S has applied to ND. Fortunatley, we can afford to pay if he gets accepted and wants to go there. On the other hand, he has been accepted to an in-state school's honors program which will be difficult to pass up I do not think an ND education is worth 4-5x the education he would get at the state school.</p>
<p>It is a choice to attend Notre Dame and in these economic times, one that must be evaluated carefully whether one can indeed afford it or whether it is indeed worth it to the individual.</p>
<p>the issue of the tution increase will come to a crisis point this August, when kids who were accepted at ND decide to back out because of their parents job loss. ND is not going to issue a lot of emergency aid for them, since they will tell the parents to drain their safety cash funds, then they can get aid. I was at lunch with a friend who has a daughter at U of Michigan and she told me a lot of kids were not coming back even there, and they pay in-state costs.</p>
<p>But the private schools do need to be "shocked" this year with dramatic drops in their yields (except HYPMS will be OK unfortunately), then they will get serious about these high costs.</p>
<p>MiPerson80 can 100% predict the future it appears.</p>
<p>but also, if this year's ND class graduates and a good percentage cannot find jobs , then have too much debt to go to grad school, or find they cannot find fully funded PhdD programs(which are drying up becasue of government funding is gfing down), and the yield goes down for the class of 2013, then the USNWR ranking declines (remeber the uproar at the ND Law school with the ranking drop recently...this hits the starting salary), then maybe ND will realize they need to change their business model, stop focusing on research (which is just an attempt to get their ranking up) and go back to the days were ND grads were solid students from middle class families(who cannot afford ND), and realize the students should come first, not all of these "extra's" to keep their ranking up.</p>
<p>I think I can predict the future here, based on sampling of families that have kids that wanted to go to private schools and cannot now.</p>
<p>It is a choice to attend ND if one can afford it! Just as it is a choice to attend HYP, etc. We all have choices when it comes to spending money....</p>
<p>My dtr. is a junior at Notre Dame and I agree with just about everything that MiPerson80 has written in this thread. I was at Junior Parents Weekend last week and tuition was a big topic. My d has a lot of friends who are quite concerned about the economy into which they are graduating. She knows a couple of students who are thinking about transferring. I think there is a lot of cynicism among a lot of students about the ND administration. For example, they told me that Fr. Jenkins sent out an announcement that he would have "office hours" but that students needed to make appointments ahead of time. The "office hours" were a joke-- a few windows of time over a couple of days. Please. I know he is a busy man and doesn't have a lot of time, but he needn't make such a show of being accessible to students. I don't know that many were buying it. Another complaint (which I share) is that ND does not take into consideration the fact that the parents of many of their students have already spent a lot of money to send their children to Catholic schools. Given how ND is constantly stressing how Catholic it is, I think they should give financial consideration to families who have truly supported Catholic education over the years. My children's Catholic HS has traditionally sent a couple of students to ND each year; however, the cost has become a real obstacle. Other Catholic colleges have been much more generous with financial aid (Creighton jumps to mind) and our state has two good state universities. With tuition increases continuing to outpace inflation, a lot of families are asking themselves if it worth it. </p>
<p>And, of course, it is a choice. So what? Because we made the choice, then we have no right to criticize? Sorry, but I don't see the logic there.</p>
<p>my criticisms is not just specific to ND, but more on the complaint of the costs and the rentless increases. I like ND, I am an alumni, I have gone to most of the 5 year reunions, I have donated money every year (above the football minimum), I go to a home game at least once a year. I now I have a son that has been admitted EA for 2013. </p>
<p>But I do recognize when an organization appears to have a business model that is squeezing every penny they can out of thier customers. We are in the situation where we are above the cut off (just barely), where we will not get any FA, but expected to pay the $49K/yr, where the state school will be only $20K/yr. But when I run the numbers, this still means us taking on substantial debt if we sent him to ND, and now we can expect 4,5% increases per year?</p>
<p>I just believe every business or school can hold a budget flat or even reduce by 5% when they have to, even without lay-offs, especially in this environment (they blamed some of the increase on the cost of food?). </p>
<p>The only way ND, and other private schools will back off on the price increase is when they see they are being counter-productive and hurting their yield rate, thus lowering their rankings. Also, when the public ivies like UC Berkley, UVa, U of Mich,. go up in rankings, becasue kids will be flocking to the lower cost schools, this will drive home the message about the exorbiant costs of these top private schools,</p>
<p>As a purely practical matter, how do you propose that Notre Dame "take into consideration" Catholic school tuition in determining financial aid awards? How does the university distinguish between those families who have "truly supported Catholic education over the years" from those who sent their kids to nominally or even heretical Catholic schools for the prestige or in order to escape a low-income public school community? Should the university also take into account contributions to the local parish and diocese that help subsidize Catholic education? Anyone who contributes to a parish with a parish school is helping to support that school, whether or not their children are able to attend it. Surely you see the problems with this approach.</p>
<p>As for students being cynical about the administration, that is, for better or for worse, what college students do. It's less a reflection on the competence of the administration than the immaturity and life-stage of the students. The same students who complain now about parietals and single-sex dorms will, in 25 years, morph into alumni parents (especially fathers of daughters) who will object to any change in those rules. </p>
<p>And as for Fr. Jenkins' office hours -- clearly, he cannot be available at the drop of the hat to every student who might want to pop in for a chat. Given that reality, having limited office hours is certainly preferable to having none at all. Those students who really want to speak with him can do so -- the Observer published an article just this week by a student who was willing to take the trouble to make an appointment. </p>
<p>It will indeed be interesting to see how the acceptances shake out this year, but you might be surprised at the number of families who are still in a position to send their children to an expensive private school, either because they saved the funds over the years, or because their jobs are insulated from the current economic difficulties.</p>
<p>Yes, one can criticize; but we all know the tuition when we sign the dotted line. We knew the cost almost 3 years ago--we also knew that there would be increases in that tuition. As I mentioned before, there are few private colleges that have a fixed rate tuition plan (Geo Washington U is one). We are not surprised by the increases. Do I condone it? No--but if my student were attending HYP, we would be paying just as much. Do I think it is worth it? I don't necessarily think ANY private school is worth the $45,000+ that they charge (note "any"). But, we knew this when student enrolled and have planned accordingly. In addition to aid to Catholic families, I would like to see PURE merit aid be handed out regardless of financial need. How about rewarding those students that work hard thru HS and reward them no matter what their finances are? Pure merit aid does not exist at most private instituitions; there are a few but by and large, most tie it to the financial need of the student. In terms of tuition, we would have been faced with this price tag no matter what private institution our student chose to attend. We are, by no means, happy about the cost of higher education (esp private schools) in this country. But, at this point, we are just looking for student to complete an education at ND and hopefully, with one more year to go.</p>
<p>PS-Exactly what should we do about this high cost of tuition? We are not going to boycott the school with just one more year to go. At this point, you have the "choice" of boycotting if you are indeed shopping around for an institution that is affordable for your student or current students can transfer. Our student will not be transferring. The only other alternative, that according to previous poster is futile, is to contact Fr Jenkins.</p>
<p>The real problem Notre Dame and all the top private schools have to deal with is this reality-At $50K per year or about $230K for 4 years (factoirng in increases), the economic model of this degree no longer works for the careers the majority of the class are going to pursue. If you are going to become a corporate controller at a mid-size or even large company, a partner in a mid size CPA firm, an engineering manager in the Fortune 500, a professor at a mid size college, a deputy school superintendent, a reaserch scientist, a pharmacist or just about any highly trained professional job that falls short of the top 10 MBA , top 14 Law school and Medical School tracks, economicially you are much, much better off going to the Virgnia Techs, Illinois, Wisconsins, Cal Polys, Ohio States and Penn States of the world rather than spending the huge amounts of money needed for a place like Notre Dame, Emory or Vanderbilt. For most professions, the extra cost and debt of the private school, now that it is in the $50K plus range simply do not pay out if you run the numbers, and you don't need the additional presitge of the private degree to have these careers.</p>
<p>And the only way this financial commitment makes sense non-economically, is the school having a truly priceless experience. By that I mean, having Nobel Laureates and former Heads of State and cabinet members leading classes and there are only a handful of those kind of places.</p>
<p>Oh, we happen to think that student chose the right fit in attending ND. There are no complaints in terms of university experiences and we feel that wonderful ops have come because of being a ND student. There are other reasons that students attend ND at this price tag; and more importantly, reasons that posters in this forum want their students to attend ND. The balance between reasons for attending and finances is a delicate choice in this economy. Sometimes, we can't always get what we want--and attending a private institution at this point may have to be re-evaluated by many. I highly doubt that ND is going to "lower" its tuition at this point, just as I doubt that HYP will. </p>
<p>Again, instead of criticizing--what can we do about the high cost of tuition at private colleges? Anyone??</p>
<p>First thing we do is stop the help campus labor movement... mostly led by children whose parents are paying for their peace of mind.</p>
<p>Ctric--don't know about that movement! I do remember, however, when we visited colleges with our student, Swarthmore had a very similar movement and very vocal! Needless to say, we did not return to that campus nor did student apply...Must be something about college campuses and labor movements??</p>
<p>We also attended JPW a few weeks ago but our experience was different than what Gracemom reported above. Although I remember hearing a few good-natured grumbles about the trials and tribulations of doing the FAFSA paperwork ‘one last time’, tuition was not a topic among the junior parents with whom we visited. Neither does my S know of any student among his circle of friends and acquaintances who is talking about transferring. Not to say there won’t be a spike in transfers this year in response to the economy. Transferring into a new school as an incoming senior is more problematic, however, so I expect most ND transfers will be from the current freshman and sophomore classes. Maybe that is why my S has not heard the transfer talk. He has freshman and sophomore friends, but fewer in number than his junior peers. </p>
<p>There may also be a drop in yield at ND this year, but I expect it won’t be any different than other top, expensive private universities. All of us expect, I think, this will be a very unusual year or two (or three) in college admissions across the nation. My prediction is ND will fare no better and no worse than their peer institutions. And, it doesn’t really matter to me if a few of the public schools rise in some publication’s artificial ranking system as a result of yield calculations. I know our state flagship U is looking at a 20% increase in tuition next year with major cuts in staff and programs. They took no spring admits this year and despite increased demand, say they are looking at a cut in admissions for fall 2009. Public school fees are lower because these schools are supported by state subsidies and those are drying up. Public or private, all universities face problems in the next few admission cycles.</p>
<p>Our situation is this: full pay after saving for college since before our kids were born, no trust funds or rich grandparents, S has worked every summer since his freshman year in high school, has an on campus job, he has no car, he has never taken a Cancun type spring break and will spend spring break looking for a summer job (his previous employer has had to lay off staff and won’t be hiring summer help). Our next kid is still in high school; my H has just recently returned to work after a lay-off in the fall but we still feel a bit unstable income wise looking into the immediate future; and we took a significant hit, like most, in our investments over the last year. Despite that, if it turns out that our high school kid is admitted and wants to go to ND, we will do all that we can to make it happen. Time will tell if we will have the resources to choose ND again…but if we don’t, he won’t be going to any other peer/expensive university either. As others have said, high tuition costs shutting out middle class families is not a problem limited to ND. It is what it is, and I suspect the system won’t dramatically change in the next year or two. Much of the huge endowment funds that allowed the Ivy schools and Stanford to offer tuition support to more middle class families this year appear to have been very riskily invested . It will be interesting to see if theses schools are able to continue their middle class tuition relief at the current levels over the next few years.</p>
<p>When the time comes for us with our high school kid, we will know what the tuition is going in, know what the yearly increases are likely to be based what has happened in the recent past, and will make our decision accordingly.</p>
<p>Thanks for a great post!</p>