<p>With the economy in its current state and after reading some of these posts, would this mean that it is nearly impossible for students with low EFCs to attend Notre Dame? I understand that they are still meeting 100% of the need...but does this mean there will be more loans offered than in the past or smaller packages in grants?</p>
<p>I would contact the financial aid office to ask that question, rather than rely on the info that is posted on this thread. I certainly would not let this economy keep one from applying. It is the financial status that needs to be carefully evaluated by students/family that should help to determine if one can afford ND. And, it is indeed a personal decision.</p>
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..but does this mean there will be more loans offered than in the past or smaller packages in grants?
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</p>
<p>I have not seen, nor have I heard, anything from ND that would suggest financial aid packages this year will have more loans and less grants. For all we know, they could be offering the opposite. As notre dame AL suggested, do not rely on information presented in these forums. If the information is important to you or critical to a decision, you need to verify the information with the school; in this case, contact the ND financial aid staff.</p>
<p>One fact I would like to find out is if there has been a significant increase of students transferring out of ND after this spring semester.</p>
<p>I do not doubt that there will be some students transfering out of ND after the spring semester but I don't believe that it will be significant. People plan for their children's education - and although many families have been hit during this recession, there are many families who are still OK and will continue to send their children to Notre Dame.</p>
<p>MiPerson80 --
I have been keeping up with this thread and I don't mean to sound disrespectful, but you seem very bitter about the Notre Dame tuition situation. It sounds like, based on your last comment, you almost hope that ND's yield will go down and that the percentage of transfers will increase just so you can "gloat" - It seems like you want Notre Dame to fail. Why would you want to send your child to a school that you seem to be so unhappy with - regardless that you are an alum?</p>
<p>MiPerson80 is actually performing a real service by focusing everyone's attention to these costs and I don't think he has any specific animus toward ND. It has always amazed me how people who will bargain in the auto showroom for hours over a a couple of thousand dollars, or hold up the closing on their house because of a higher than expected appraisal fee or haggle over the channel package for their cable TV will blindly spend a quarter million dollars for a private college. These costs no longer mean that the family just gives up vacations for four years or gives up eating out for everything except the 30th wedding anniversary. These costs are life changing events that will extend the working life of both parents by years and undermine the core financial security of the family. You need to buy a fully loaded minivan each and every Fall and Spring for four years for just one child! How do you realistically "plan" for that? As I have pointed out in my previous post, a front end load of $250k (versus say 60-70K at a top state school) will lead even highly successful professionals into a constrained and tough lifestyle during their professional lives.</p>
<p>Unless you are going to be having class with Jeffrey Sachs or Henry Kissinger or Alan Blinder, the whole private school thing in 2009 doesn't make sense in my opinion.</p>
<p>I am not bitter but am upset , not just at ND, but the cost of college, especially for the elite private schools. But taking a step back and looking at the upcoming fall season, and considering the economy is so bad, it will be a tipping point to see if these schools's yield's will stay up. If they do go down, I won't gloat, but this will force the schools to lower their costs.</p>
<p>I do think ND is at a critical juncture, with Father Jenkin's drive toward a research university, this is financially risky for ND with it's lower endowment, that they need more science facilities, more funded Ph'D programs, and more professors doing research rather than teaching. I beleive the university is bettng this will pay off , and they will keep their prices up and hope the economy gets better in the next 9 months (I doubt it).</p>
<p>I guess I am skeptical when we get brochures's from ND for my son, telling him about undergraduate research opportunities. I was an engineer major at ND, and I work in a science based company and on new technologies brought out by our research group. But undergrad research as a freshmen or a sophmore? I would just want my son to get a decent GPA those first two years, so he could go to med school or grad school, he can do some research senior year. Being at ND , with him being a good student, but all the kids are, so it will be quite competitive-so let these kids just master the academics. I think this undergrad research ploy by the university maybe impresses some parents, but I am skeptical that kids need this in undergrad. Actually, it would be much better (and impress employers), if ND had an intern program for engineers.</p>
<p>Toast eater -</p>
<p>It's not like anyone of us were not aware of these costs. No one needed to bring them to our attention.
If the whole private school thing doesn't make sense to you, then just don't do it.<br>
And believe it or not, people do "realistically plan" for their children's education at a private school (if that is their choice) - It is not like they don't know the costs upfront - but it is their choice and it doesn't matter to them whether it makes sense to you or not - They will still be sending their child to that school regardless if "Jeffrey Sachs or Henry Kissinger or Alan Blinder" aren't in their class!</p>
<p>toasteater had a great post!</p>
<p>ND is great but if my son went to Yale, and took a course taught by Tony Blair (who is teaching there), maybe that is worth the extra $$$</p>
<p>I officially joined the CC forums in 2007 but lurked for at time before that. I can’t fathom that there has been a single day where there isn’t an active discussion somewhere on CC where parents and students are confronting and discussing the harsh reality of tuition costs and/or the lack of financial aid at today’s colleges and universities. </p>
<p>These type of threads do seem to ebb and flow with the admission cycle as parents and students come to the realization that they maybe cannot afford their, or their kid’s, dream schools. Our family will be close to heartbroken if it turns out that we cannot afford ND for kid #2. We planned ahead with every intent to give them both the same opportunities. We just did not anticipate a worldwide recession/depression between kid #1 and kid #2. </p>
<p>But, we don’t lay the blame on ND for the current state of the economy, nor do we blame ND for the overall high cost of education. And, I think it is simplistic to think ND is going to be priced lower relative to their peers. There is a possibility the top schools that are not offering merit aid (or financial aid to middle class families at a bit higher income levels) may adjust their pricing in reaction to this admission cycle, especially if there are increases in transfers and no-shows, as MiPerson80 seems to hope. I guess I would be surprised to see that reaction, really. But if I am wrong and there are downward adjustments in tuition, there is just no way they are going to be so significant as to bring top private tuition levels down to public U levels, nor even to ‘LAC with merit’ school levels.</p>
<p>So, I guess I don’t see the point of repeatedly ‘dissing’ ND for the cost of tuition or the way they spend their money on this discussion board unless the intent is to try to discourage students families away from ND? Does anyone think the ND administration is monitoring this discussion and what we say here will make any difference in tuition, financial aid or policy? Do you think what we are saying here isn’t anything they are already well aware of and are most likely trying to address if they can? The CC discussion forums are a wonderful tool for both students and parents. Yes, we can gather to grumble about tuition, share our concerns about campus issues, try to help each other out when we can, and generally get educated about the college application process or specific schools. But what we say here is not going to change policy or tuition at ND or any other school. If you want to accomplish something like that, it seems your energies would be better spent going directly to the ND administration.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth: our family has a lot of respect for Father Jenkins and what he and his administration are doing at ND. We support the campus building projects that are both underway and planned in the near future. Capital projects are funded by major donations. You can’t argue that those donations can be used for tuition assistance because those same donors are not going to give money to tuition assistance. </p>
<p>I really am not trying to be a cheerleader here. The school is not perfect. No school is. Like Heycow, I just don’t understand the point of repeated negativity that has been expressed on this topic, so just thought I would share a different point of view. (And I am usually a ‘short answer’ poster. Sorry for the length of the last two.)</p>
<p>it is not negative to disagree about the costs, just a discussion that needs to occur now.</p>
<p>What do you anticipate the results of this discussion to be??</p>
<p>No, we don't disagree about costs. The costs are a factual number. We disagree in how we respond to that number and apparently, we disagree on what we think our discussion of that number in this thread will accomplish. </p>
<p>MiPerson80, have you decided the cost is too high for your EA admitted S to attend ND, or are you still thinking about it? Will it possibly depend on his admittance to Yale and their financial package? You can come back and gloat if it is a good one, we promise.</p>
<p>Discussing it is not solving the problem as I suggested in an earlier post. MiPerson, as an alum, I challenge you to speak to Fr Jenkins about the very issues that you seem to think he is wasting money on thus causing the tuition to spike. Surely, as an alum, you would have some pull w/regards to discussion with him. If not him, how about contacting board members that are in part, elected, I believe by alums. Not being an alum, I feel I have a somewhat limited voice by only having a current student enrolled. You have offered no advice/suggestions as to how this issue might be solved in a pro-active manner; you have only continuously voiced what I consider most negative posts about ND. As I also mentioned, are you also complaining about the tuition costs of Yale and Duke to which your student seems to have interest? Duke most certainly has a lot of research at their institution as well as Yale and there costs are nontheless cheaper than ND. I propose that you offer up the same negativity on those sites as well for the very reasons that you feel ND is wasting the tuition money that those of us who have planned for our student's education are indeed satisfied thus far. As Greta mentioned, NO school is perfect and when you opt to consider private schools, you are somewhat agreeing to their rules and practices whether it be the cost of tuition or parietals in the dorms. If you don't like it, then I suggest you consider what is affordable and a school to which you are comfortable with their policies. Let it go or try to offer us some sound solutions to this issue.</p>
<p>yes, my s did apply to Yale and harvard, etc.... but we are realistic about the chances , so I really think this has a very small chance of happening, but I knew he would get into ND, he had the scores, grades, EC, etc.... to get accepted (EA is pretty much 90% grades and scores).</p>
<p>But in some way I hold ND to a higher standard, and try to keep their base to middle class kids, and have it so they don't have to graduate with debt. I think if Father Hesburgh had been in charge, the costs would not have sky rocketed. (when i graduated the cost was $7K/yr, if your factor in the CPI, it should be $17K/yr , and let us grant some premium here, but now it is $49K/yr instead?)</p>
<p>I think ND has changed. I saw something that bothered me in the South dining hall, when we visited las fall, a bunch of Asian kids were sitting all together, this struck me as not being very inclusive, something you would see at MIT or even the ivies. I didn't expect to see this at ND.</p>
<p>Claremarie, I want to address a couple of your comments. You posited certain problems that you see with ND taking into consideration what parents have already spent for Catholic education, specifically how ND could distinguish those “who sent their kids to nominally or even heretical Catholic schools for the prestige or in order to escape a low-income public school community” from those whose motivations met some undefined purity-of-motivations test. I just don’t’s ee that as a problem; the FAFSA doesn’t delve into whether families have frittered their money away, remained purposefully underemployed, etc. and I would simply give families who have had their children in Catholic schools the benefit of the doubt. And I think the distinction between parishioners who contribute to a parish with a parish school and parents who have spent thousands of dollars in tuition is fairly obvious. It is the tuition-paying parents that keep the Catholic schools in this country alive. </p>
<p>I don’t think you read my comment about Fr. Jenkins office hours carefully. I never said he should be available at the drop of a hat. It is disingenuous, however, to tout one’s availability to students and then announce office hours that are so ridiculously limited that the announced “availability” is essentially illusory.</p>
<p>Your dismissal of student cynicism as a product of “immaturity” is condescending and not well-founded. I said nothing about parietals or same-sex dorms (in fact, my d rather likes both of those institutions for a variety of reasons). Here is an example of something that breeds cynicism: at JPW I went to the Arts and Letters presentation Saturday morning. It was very good and I enjoyed it quite a bit. One thing nagged at me, though. There was a discussion of the preparation of ND grads for the job market and statistics were thrown out (and I can’t find the handout now so these figures will be approximate) along the lines of 92% were on a career path within 6 months of graduation. But the breakdown was more revealing. It was something like a third had employment, a third were in grad school and a pretty large number (20some%) were doing “service”. I know a lot of kids doing internships or service because they can’t find jobs. Ditto with grad school. My d has several friends who are looking at those options because of how bad the current job market is and worrying about the loans they have to pay off. A little more honesty about real-honest-to goodness-paying-employment statistics would be appreciated. Constantly painting everything touching on ND in rosy tones breeds skepticism— and cynicism.</p>
<p>The problem of overselling the value of a college education in terms of future earnings is common to all members of the higher education establishment in the US. But ND consistently sells itself as being special because of its Catholic identity. So, I expect more from ND. As a Catholic institution that relies on its special place as the preeminent Catholic university in the United States, I think it should do more than just charge what the market will bear. Particularly to the Catholic families that have been its lifeblood for decades and who have supported the Catholic educational system in the United States. Frankly, I don’t quite understand why a family with two or more children in college will get a tuition break, but a family that has spent 12 years paying Catholic tuition doesn’t. </p>
<p>You write that I “might be surprised at the number of families who are still in a position to send their children to an expensive private school, either because they saved the funds over the years, or because their jobs are insulated from the current economic difficulties.” Maybe so– we’ll see what it looks like in a couple of years. I have posted very little on these boards but I have read a lot and it seems that whenever a complaint is made about tuition there is a response with an implied criticism of “you should have saved” or “you should have planned”. We have saved. However, believe me, it is impossible for most families, even with two working professional parents, to raise three children AND sock away the approximately $200,000 each for four years at ND. Moreover, in the current economic environment, there aren’t many people who feel “completely insulated” and, even those who do have seen significant hits to their retirement (and, in many cases, their college savings)..</p>
<p>I think toasteater hit the nail on the head when he wrote that “the economic model of this degree no longer works for the careers the majority of the class are going to pursue.” The tipping point is coming– don’t know if it will be $50,000 or 55, 000 or 60,000.</p>
<p>Foe the record, my d isn’t going to transfer and she has had a lot of wonderful experiences at ND. I think she has made the most of what ND has to offer and it has been a good “fit”. I enjoyed JPW– the gala and dinner were fun, the mass was beautiful, Lou Holz was entertaining, it was great to meet her friends and their parents; JPW is the kind of thing that ND does extremely well. The current tuition is our “tipping point”, however. Our second child has decided to take a very different college path next year and I don’t know what the third will decide, although I doubt it will be ND. If it is, and ND continues with the tuition raises, he will have to take significant loans to cover what we can’t and I would caution him strongly against it. As I said in my prior post, I am hearing from parents at our Catholic high school that more and more families are taking a harder look at the cost-benefit of the ND experience and, regretfully, concluding they just can’t afford it.</p>
<p>Notre Dame Al asked for a call to action on how to address these costs:</p>
<p>-request more transparancy on the state of the endowment</p>
<p>-a letter writing campaign to Senator Grassley of Iowa on private college costs. Government investigation on price fixing for these top private schools.</p>
<p>-a clear statement of the ND fianancial aid formula when you are filling out the ND supplement for the common application</p>
<ul>
<li>a "truth in employment" statement, track the starting salaries, % of student that found jobs in their fields, etc... for every major. </li>
</ul>
<p>-a bell curve showing the the distribution of debt for kids graduating (they say the mean is $20K/yr, but what about the worse off 10% for example)</p>
<p>-students protest the increases, maybe boycott the opening 1st quarter of the opening home football game this fall?</p>
<p>-ND give fixed rate loans to students, then they have some skin in the game.</p>
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[quote]
I think if Father Hesburgh had been in charge, the costs would not have sky rocketed. (when i graduated the cost was $7K/yr, if your factor in the CPI, it should be $17K/yr , and let us grant some premium here, but now it is $49K/yr instead?)
[/quote]
</p>
<p>If I remember correctly, we junior class parents joined the ND family the same year Fr. Jenkins took over from the retiring Fr. Hesburgh. The tuition numbers our freshman year were right in line with all the other expensive, no merit aid universities. Fr. Hesburgh's administration was keeping up, along with everyone else. The ND tuition numbers did NOT suddenly jump when Fr. Jenkins took over. And, Fr. Hesburgh is 93 years old. Do you think he should still be the president of ND? He has earned his (very active, lol) retirement.</p>
<p>MiPerson--take the call of action plan to Fr Jenkins or a board member. We that post on the board cannot change the rate of tuition/policies of the school.</p>