<p>I turned down Berkeley! I'm still curious, though.</p>
<p>So why SHOULDN'T I have turned down Berkeley (for NYU)?
Convince me that I made a big mistake. :)</p>
<p>And BTW, I'm OOS, if that matters.</p>
<p>Berkeley is a much more active than NYU per se, just an opinion.</p>
<p>Because we are much cooler people than those jerks at NYU, and our football team is better.</p>
<p>Just kidding.</p>
<p>But seriously, I think Berkeley has many world-class professors and is a standout in a great many academic fields, more so than NYU. Our library is one of the most extensive in the country, ranking third out of all university libraries. The bay area has one of the best mass transit systems per capita (while only a quarter of the length of the NY system, BART services only 3 million people while the NY system serves 20 million). There is no grade inflation at Berkeley, which helps out when applying to grad school. Berkeley has some of the smallest class sizes for a public university, esp. in the upper-division level. Our endowment is huge (nearly 3 billion) so we also have state of the art facilities. And finally even OOS I still think (I may be wrong) Berkeley is cheaper.</p>
<p>It's a tough decision but I suppose if your planning on getting a job on the east coast, NYU would be a good choice. Come back to Berkeley (for grad school) if you want a world-class education to go with that east coast degree.</p>
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There is no grade inflation at Berkeley, which helps out when applying to grad school.
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</p>
<p>Huh? It does? What's your rationale?</p>
<p>LOL, I turned down NYU-Stern (they gave me a pretty penny in scholarship cash as well) for the home of the Golden Bear.</p>
<p>I love it here, and that's all I can say. I hope you love it in the Big Apple as well. Send us a postcard.</p>
<p>"Huh? It does? What's your rationale?"</p>
<p>Are you talking about grade inflation in general or its relationship to acceptance to grad school?</p>
<p>Oh, thanks! Yeah, I turned down Berkeley for NYU-Stern + scholarship. I was pretty much split even between the two. Ironically, in the end, I chose NYU because Berkeley has notoriously hard grading, and I just didn't want to be under that kind of pressure and cutthroat competitiveness (which I heard the pre-Haas crowd was known for?). Oh, and also the thought of those weeder classes really scared me. However, Berkeley's top-notch education and beautiful campus and weather was really hard to pass up (esp. for NYC's permanent smoggy days)!</p>
<p>Matt30, you said that no grade inflation would help out when it came to grad school apps, but isn't it just the opposite? No grade inflation would mean that Berkeley students generally have lower GPAs than students from other universities. Most top grad schools focus very heavily on GPAs, or so I've heard.</p>
<p>Well, the only problem is, I don't particularly like NYC. And that may potentially be a really big problem, considering NYU has no campus and is smack in the center of NYC. LOL.</p>
<p>so the only reason you picked NYU is because you were scared of Berkely?</p>
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so the only reason you picked NYU is because you were scared of Berkely?
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<p>I guess... you could put it that way. xP
Both had approximately equally good business programs, so fear tipped the scale. But the thing is, everyone I know apparently thinks that Berkeley is like a BILLION times more prestigious (and better) than NYU. Obviously, that's probably true to some extent, but their business programs are about the same (at least in rankings and job opportunities).</p>
<p>"Matt30, you said that no grade inflation would help out when it came to grad school apps, but isn't it just the opposite?"</p>
<p>Most professional and graduate study schools adjust your GPA on metrics of grade inflation relative to other schools. A 3.3 GPA at Berkeley could mean more to an admissions officer than a 3.4 at NYU. Assuming you would have the same test scores coming out of both universities, the name alone could show the significant difference in performance and work ethic between the two. Berkeley is notorious for having strict grading policies that won't be overlooked. There is a reason Berkeley alumns fill the halls of the nations best grad schools.</p>
<p>omg, go post topics on the NYU forum and get to know those kids... stop bothering us :)</p>
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Most professional and graduate study schools adjust your GPA on metrics of grade inflation relative to other schools. A 3.3 GPA at Berkeley could mean more to an admissions officer than a 3.4 at NYU. Assuming you would have the same test scores coming out of both universities, the name alone could show the significant difference in performance and work ethic between the two. Berkeley is notorious for having strict grading policies that won't be overlooked.
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Can you provide a source to back that up? I don't think that's really the case...</p>
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There is a reason Berkeley alumns fill the halls of the nations best grad schools.
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Berkeley's number of students who go to top grad schools is actually not that high; the percentage is low compared to some other top schools. If there's any reason it's because Berkeley has thousands and thousands and thousands of students, so that even a low percentage amounts to many students.</p>
<p>There are many graduate schools that have applied corrective measures to asses applicants. Berkeleys well know and strong reputation for academic rigor is a benifit, not a hinderance.</p>
<p>"Berkeley's number of students who go to top grad schools is actually not that high; the percentage is low compared to some other top schools."</p>
<p>Comapred to NYU, it's high.</p>
<p>
[quote]
A 3.3 GPA at Berkeley could mean more to an admissions officer than a 3.4 at NYU. Assuming you would have the same test scores coming out of both universities, the name alone could show the significant difference in performance and work ethic between the two. Berkeley is notorious for having strict grading policies that won't be overlooked.
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</p>
<p>I wish that what you were saying was true, but the evidence seems to indiate that it is not. </p>
<p>For example, consider the grade adjustment scheme formerly used by Boalt (Berkeley's own law school). Notice how Boalt does not provide any upper adjustment for Berkeley's own undergrads, yet will actually provide adjustments for grade inflated schools like Harvard, Stanford, Brown, or Georgetown. </p>
<p>Note, as I said before on other threads, this adjustment scheme was not created to deal with grade inflation, but rather to adjust for the entire suitability of a particuar student for law school, which encompasses both the undergrad alma mater's grade inflation and other factors that affect law school fitness. For example, according to the scale, Harvard actually gets a higher boost than MIT, despite the fact that even most Harvard students would agree that the grading at Harvard is not as hard as the grading at MIT. What the scale demonstrates is that while the grading at MIT is hard (and hence MIT gets a higher adjustment than, say, Stanford), the MIT education may not be as suitable to produce good future lawyers as a Harvard education would. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, whether it was because Boalt refused to adjust for Berkeley's relatively tough grading, or whether it was because Berkeley did not do that good of a job of preparing its undergrads for law school (relative to schools like HYPSM), at the end of the day, the result is the same - Boalt did not upwardly adjust GPA's for Berkeley students.</p>
<p>You can also look at the admissions statistics of Berkeley undergrads who get admitted to the top law and medical schools. Often times, you will see that Berkeley students actually require HIGHER GPA's to get admitted than the average admitted student to that school. Yep, that's right, HIGHER. For example, I believe the average admitted student to Harvard Law School (from all undergrad schools) had a GPA of something like 3.8. However, Berkeley students who got admitted to Harvard Law had a GPA of around 3.9. The same is true of even Berkeley's own law school. The average admitted Boalt student had around a 3.7 GPA. However, the average admitted Boalt student who did undergrad at Berkeley had a GPA of 3.85 or so. Yep, that's right, they needed HIGHER grades. You would think that if grad schools were really adjusting for the difficulty of Berkeley, then you should see Berkeley students with lower-than-average grades getting in. In reality, they often times need HIGHER grades. </p>
<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Law/lawStats.stm#school%5B/url%5D">http://career.berkeley.edu/Law/lawStats.stm#school</a>
<a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm%5B/url%5D">http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm</a></p>
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There is a reason Berkeley alumns fill the halls of the nations best grad schools
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</p>
<p>Or take a look at the tally of students at the top professional schools and where they come from. Take Harvard Law. HLS currently has 43 law students who came from Berkeley. Contrast that with the 91 who came from Stanford, and keep in mind that Berkeley has about 23k undergrads whereas Stanford has 6k undergrads. Hence, Stanford is represented more than twice as much as Berkeley is at Harvard Law, despite Berkeley having nearly quadruple the undergrad population, for an overall per-capita ratio of about 8:1 in favor of Stanford. Or take a look at Pomona. Pomona has only about 1500 undergrads, yet still has 14 students in HLS. Hence, Berkeley has 15 times the number of undergrads that Pomona has, yet only triple the number of students, for an overall per-capita ratio of about 5:1 in favor of Pomona. </p>
<p>The same can be said for Harvard Business School. On an absolute scale, there are far more Stanford grads at HBS than there are Berkeley grads, which is, again, even more remarkable when you consider just how much bigger Berkeley is compared to Stanford. Yale Law School shows similar stats - on a per-capita basis, Berkeley doesn't really look that good relative to schools like HYPS. </p>
<p>Now, don't get me wrong. I agree that Berkeley is clearly beating any other public university other than Virginia in terms of per-capita grad school placement, and might even have the edge over Virginia. But I don't know that Berkeley undergrads can truly be said to be filling the halls of the best grad schools. Let's face it. In the case of law, the halls tend to be filled by graduates of HYPS, and in the case of engineering and business, by HYPSM grads. The LAC's also do quite well on a per-capita basis. </p>
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So why SHOULDN'T I have turned down Berkeley (for NYU)?
Convince me that I made a big mistake.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Well, in this case, I think I have to agree with Matt30 and say that Berkeley is probably a stronger overall undergrad school than is NYU. Yes, Berkeley has severe problems with impersonality, and with having students feel like numbers, but the fact is, so does NYU. I believe the faculty is stronger at Berkeley, and I believe the student selectivity is stronger. </p>
<p>Now if we were talking about a school like HYPSMC or perhaps an elite LAC vs. Berkeley, then I think it may be hard to make a strong case for Berkeley, especially if you are OOS. But against NYU, I think Berkeley wins.</p>
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<a href="http://www.businessweek.com/bschool..._8678_bs001.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.businessweek.com/bschool..._8678_bs001.htm</a></p>
<p>There are many graduate schools that have applied corrective measures to asses applicants. Berkeleys well know and strong reputation for academic rigor is a benifit, not a hinderance.
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</p>
<p>This article you cited has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The article has mostly to do with grading policies in MBA programs, and especially regarding the practice of MBA programs such as Wharton and Stanford to practice grade non-disclosure (a policy in which recruiters aren't even allowed to ask for transcripts and students are barred from talking about their grades to recruiters). The OP isn't talking about MBA programs, he's talking about undergrad. </p>
<p>In fact, inside the article is a quote that states that adcoms actually DON'T take rigor into account.</p>
<p>"They discovered that admissions staff, even at top B-schools, take grades at face value, thus MBA applicants are more likely to gain admission if they came from an undergraduate institution that inflated grades. "</p>
<p>Well if you want an opinion from someone who attends Berkeley, but has a sister attending NYU, I'd say that NYU doesn't really have a campus. I mean, it's campus is New York. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. I kind of like being able to see the sun without taking an elevator to a high rooftop. I like some open spaces. I like apartments with reasonable rents, too. Berkeley is definitely a cheaper place to attend than NYU, regardless of being in-state or out of state (though it would change if you received scholarships).</p>
<p>In terms of education, I know NYU has a bunch of strong programs, so in those areas it clearly wins. Berkeley wins in engineering, among our other strengths, naturally. NYU's buildings, as far as I saw, were much nicer inside than Berkeley's buildings (admittedly I only went into the library, but that place was very nice). Berkeley's buildings are old and trashed, while, if NYU's library is any indicator, you guys actually have people that, you know, clean the place.</p>
<p>I'm not going to get into the whole GPA debate. I will say, though, that in light of sakky's statements, one thing is clear: Berkeley is intellectually diverse. Our best are as good as THE best, but our worst are...well, bad. We have as many geniuses as anywhere else, we just fill in the rest of the slots with a lot of other people, too. Percentage-wise, that means we always are behind the privates. Would it be hard to make our admissions more selective and more rigid to boost our rankings and percentages artificially? No, of course not. But that wouldn't be fulfilling the mission of Berkeley, which prides itself on being a public institution and providing more opportunities to more people.</p>
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No, of course not. But that wouldn't be fulfilling the mission of Berkeley, which prides itself on being a public institution and providing more opportunities to more people.
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</p>
<p>While this is going to be an off-topic comment, every time I heard somebody say that Berkeley, as a public institution, can't be highly selective because it has to provide more opportunity to more people, I cringe. That's because Berkeley's graduate programs are all extremely selective, and yet those programs are all publicly funded. For example, the Haas MBA program doesn't see its mission to provide opportunities to lots of people. In fact, Haas has one of the smallest MBA programs, public or private, of any of the top programs. Yet Haas is a public institution. The same is true of the Boalt Law School. The same is true of all of Berkeley's PhD programs. You never hear anybody at Berkeley say that the Berkeley PhD programs have to become less selective in order to provide more opportunities for people to get PhD's.</p>
<p>ive heard different sakky. My org chem prof last year was on the medical admissions board for cornell. He told us that Berkeley notoriously has really low stats in comparisson to the ivies.... he told us that med schools would take this into account. Also when u claim that Berkeley students have to have on average a higher GPA than the ivy students... where do u get this info from. If it is from the berkeley carreer website this info is skewed... as many students do not report thier acceptances and scores to Berkeley.</p>
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every time I heard somebody say that Berkeley, as a public institution, can't be highly selective because it has to provide more opportunity to more people, I cringe. That's because Berkeley's graduate programs are all extremely selective, and yet those programs are all publicly funded.
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</p>
<p>I think you're missing one crucial point. </p>
<p>Berkeley has for long prided itself on providing "more opportunities to more people" as far as UNDERGRADUATE, not graduate education is concerned. (See the California Master Plan for Higher Education, which all UCs follow.) </p>
<p>So, it seems to me that if you have an problem with Berkeley's under/grad admissions, you shouldn't look towards Berkeley but towards Sacramento. All Berkeley is doing is following the law.</p>
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But the thing is, everyone I know apparently thinks that Berkeley is like a BILLION times more prestigious (and better) than NYU. Obviously, that's probably true to some extent, but their business programs are about the same (at least in rankings and job opportunities).
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</p>
<p>Obviously, everyone you know is deeply misinformed: Berkeley is NOT like a BILLION times more prestigious (and better) than NYU. It is only 10 times more better :p.</p>
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Berkeley is intellectually diverse. Our best are as good as THE best, but our worst are...well, bad. We have as many geniuses as anywhere else, we just fill in the rest of the slots with a lot of other people, too. Percentage-wise, that means we always are behind the privates.
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</p>
<p>Maybe we should look at the Berkeleys current situation in other perspective. Lets take Berkeleys engineering program for example. Top 25% students are as brilliant as any student body in any other top private schools. I would bet that if you place those top creams in MIT or whatnots, you would see absolute no difference in student quality/intellectuals. These top creams are usually going into top industry and graduate schools, making Berkeleys name. And yes, and there are bottom 50%- Yet, I think those academically less competent students can also contribute in other ways too: Making Berkeley More Liberal than ever!!! When you go decades back, Berkeley was the birthplace for anti-war protest, womans right, and whatnots. I would bet those students sacrificing their bodies, bleeding heavily left and right against brutal police suppression for the spirit of True Liberty were composed of more of bottom 50% students than top creams!!!</p>