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Well, I didn't want to say it so explicitly, but, basically, yeah. Seriously, if you've been at Berkeley for awhile and you haven't noticed some undergrads who just aren't serious about becoming educated, then I would have to say that that may be because you don't WANT to notice them. It's like somebody from East Oakland claiming that there's no crime there.
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<p>I do think that there are students at Berkeley who don't want to become educated, and I bet there are more of them (both in total numbers and percentage wise) at other top schools, but I do think you make it seem like 1) they are everywhere at Berkeley, 2) they don't exist elsewhere, and 3) they're somehow different than those at other schools. I think these are false, and the last one is the most important here. I think many students at other, so-called (and perhaps even actual) better schools are lazy in the same way that some Berkeley students are lazy- they work when they have to work. Those that don't work when they have to work often flunk out at Berkeley and often elsewhere.</p>
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Oh, come now, Drab. You are falling into the trap of articulated rationality. Just because a phenomenom cannot be defined to the point of perfect scientific precision doesn't mean that the phenomenom does not exist. Like the famous legal saying regarding the definition of obscenity as "you know it when you see it", the fact, is most social categories cannot be defined absolutely. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Just because not even our best legal jurists have been able to cleanly define the line between obscenity and art doesn't mean that obscenity does not exist at all. Similarly, just because nobody can give you a precise definition of laziness does not mean that laziness does not exist. In fact, most of the social sciences (of which I would include the field of education) are inundated with terms that have never been truly precisely defined on a purely numerical level.
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<p>Sakky, I'm falling into no trap. I'm a philosophy major. I deal with complicated concepts in often non "absolute, precision, scientific" terms, but when I do, I still define them, and more so than just "y'know what I'm talking about." I'm not asking for an absolute definition, I'm not asking for complex studies, but I am asking for some working definition. </p>
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This is what you tell prospective students: there are 30,000 people here. You have choices. You can find your niche on this campus, and there will be a dozen kids there right with you, no matter how obscure the niche is.
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<p>As long as you tell them 23k or so undergrad and 10k or so grad/professional students.</p>