Turning down Harvard to go to Brandeis?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>My D is interested in biochemistry and molecular biology, has SAT of 2390, 3 SATII(s) at 800. </p>

<p>She has been accepted by Harvard, Brown, Tufts and Brandeis, not to mention 5 more.
At this point with three days to go we are deciding between Harvard and Brandeis. </p>

<p>Brandeis has been her target for a while since we did not seriously count on a Harvard acceptance, but since her acceptance and especially after the April prefrosh weekend we are very much confused.</p>

<p>Brandeis gave her 10K merit scholarship and most importantly accepted her into a highly selective fellowship program which accepts about 20 students a year and provides its own additional seminars, courses and lectures. It also assigns a personal faculty mentor and has its own staff adviser. Here are more details:
Lerman-Neubauer</a> Fellowship Program | Brandeis University</p>

<p>This sounds like an incredible undergraduate opportunity at a very strong school. </p>

<p>She at this point is hoping to go on to graduate school with Harvard Grad as the ultimate coveted goal. I have heard that Brandeis students are welcome applicants there, but who knows if we will be so lucky with acceptances to grad school.</p>

<p>I would appreciate any comments about comparison of the Harvard's undergraduate system with this scenario. I know all about prestige, please keep it out of the equation. </p>

<p>I realize that the thread may promptly be drowned in a general choir of pro-Harvard responses; please take care to look into the details of my question and answer if you are familiar with Harvard's inner workings, preferably in the life science, since this is what she will most likely be studying.</p>

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<p>I’m a PhD student in the BBS (biological and biomedical sciences) PhD program at Harvard.</p>

<p>Over the past several years, my program has admitted a few students from Brandeis, but has admitted many from Harvard College. Harvard College is actually the second-largest feeder into my program, behind MIT.</p>

<p>To get into graduate school in the life sciences, it’s important to have a very strong undergraduate research background. This Brandeis program seems to be a great way to get research experience, but keep in mind that Harvard undergrads will have these experiences without needing a special program to do it – they have access to all of the biology labs in Cambridge and at the medical school, and there are many stipend-granting programs as well as summer residential programs for students engaged in research.</p>

<p>Ultimately, graduate school acceptances in the life sciences depend on a student’s work and initiative. But it is easier to assemble a record of high-quality research and a set of strong recommendations from high-profile professors when coming from one of the top programs in the field. That’s not to say that Brandeis is a bad choice; it’s just that Harvard is a safer choice if a great PhD program is her ultimate destination.</p>

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<p>…</p>

<p>This would be a huge mistake.</p>

<p>Plus, Brandeis is in the middle of some serious financial problems. Its boosters got killed by the Madoff thing, and there are going to be a slew of lawsuits if they try to sell of their art gallery in order to get its endowment back.</p>

<p>Look, call me crazy, but as far as I’m concerned, if Harvard offers you admission, it is generally understood that you will accept it, save possibly for the Yale/Stanford/MIT EA people who have already fallen in love with their school.</p>

<p>Brandeis is a fine place, but don’t have your daughter turn down Harvard for it. Any class there is going to feature people probably more impressive than the 20 in that special program as Brandeis.</p>

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<p>I’m a graduating senior at Brandeis so I can only give you the Brandeis perspective. First, Amadeuic is right–your D will probably shine more at Brandeis than she will at Harvard, which can be a good thing. Would you D like to be just another smart student at Harvard or would she like to be a superstar at Brandeis? Yes, obviously Harvard is more selective than Brandeis, but Brandeis’ undergraduate program was ranked #15 by Forbers and we are ranked 31st by US News and World Report (ahead of NYU and BC), so Brandeis students are not slouches in the classroom. I’m not a science person, so I can’t speak first hand about the life sciences, but I do know that Biology is among the most popular majors here. I don’t know if you’ve seen their Web site with faculty contact information. [Life</a> Sciences at Brandeis University](<a href=“http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/]Life”>http://www.bio.brandeis.edu/) </p>

<p>It may also help us if you gave us information about what type of social life she is seeking. You mentioned the Brandeis open house left you more confused. Why is that? Did she find she fit more with Brandeis students than Harvard students? Did she like that Brandeis is on a safe, suburban campus (but only a 25 minute shuttle bus ride away to Cambridge and Boston)? What clubs would she be interested in participating in? </p>

<p>Also, to be blunt, what is your family’s financial situation? Will the 10k savings improve your quality-of-life?</p>

<p>If your D truly fell in love with the Brandeis community, then I think her idea to obtain her graduate degree at Harvard after thriving at Brandeis as a Lerman-Neubauer fellow is a good one.</p>

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<p>I’m not a science person. I know by reputation the Brandeis Life Sciences faculty to be excellent and committed to undergraduate education as well as cutting edge research and graduate education. It is the nurturing quality of that faculty and their mentoring that attracted and benefitted Rod MacKinnon, an undergraduate and a classmate of mine at Brandeis in the late 70’s. He returned after medical school to pursue post-doc studies there. In 2003 he was awarded the Nobel Prize in Chemistry. Undoubtedly, the available training at Harvard in the life sciences is excellent. But is it the nurturing, undergraduate-oriented atmosphere that may make the difference in a student’s future? Is it the right fit for your D? You will of course need to determine that for yourself.</p>

<p>On a related note, Edward Witten, the Fields Medal winning Physicist (sometimes called “Einstein’s successor”) was an undergrad at Brandeis and went on to take his graduate training at Princeton. Perhaps another example of how a small, nuturing undergraduate program can lead to great success in science.</p>

<p>One other thought. There are a number of Brandeis grads that have gone on to teach at Harvard. Some never have taken even graduate degrees from Havard–e.g. Michael Sandel, another classmate of mine, who took his doctorate at Oxford. He is one of the most effective and popular professors at Harvard. (teaching the Government department’s “Justice” course). So it seems success in life, and even at Harvard, is possible without any Harvard degree. </p>

<p>As for the financial picture at Brandeis, the reports of its budget issues lack context and have been overblown due to the administration’s inartful handling of its proposal to sell a few paintings from its world-renowned Rose Art Museum–which has caused international attention to be focused on this issue. Brandeis is hardly alone in this economy. According to news reports, many universities, even Harvard, are making budget cuts in response to severely diminished endowments and donations. Brandeis has pledged to maintain financial aid and maintain, or improve, its world-class education by resisting the type of budget cuts that could undermine its core mission. The art-sale proposal is just one way it is considering to fund that pledge. The key here is that Brandeis is prioritizing students over things.</p>

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<p>Go to Harvard. Seriously. I doubt you’d ever regret it.</p>

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<p>Hi tot_enot,</p>

<p>Congratulations to your D on her impressive acceptances!</p>

<p>I’m a senior at Harvard (and I’ve loved it here), and I also have a close friend from high school who goes to Brandeis (and loves it there), so I’ve spent some time on both campuses.</p>

<p>I think you’re right to think carefully about this decision - just because US News likes Harvard’s stats, doesn’t mean Harvard is the right place for everyone.</p>

<p>If your daughter is driven, self-motivated, able to blaze her own path, then Harvard is incredible. The opportunities here (for research, jobs, clubs, teams, etc) are really unparalleled, so long as you seek them out. At Brandeis, with the scholarship, there’s a bit of a path already cleared for her.</p>

<p>If your daughter likes an incredibly diverse, incredibly talented student body, then Harvard might be the best place for her. Brandeis is certainly full of wonderful individuals – don’t get me wrong. But most of the students there come from very similar backgrounds (i.e. middle-upper class Jews, immigrant/international asians, etc), and on the whole, may not have the crazy accomplishments or academic background as their Harvard counterparts. At Harvard, almost everyone says their favorite part of the place is their peers - I’m not sure a more diverse group of ~1,700 exists anywhere else on earth.</p>

<p>If your daughter wants to be in a bustling urban environment, then she might want to come to Harvard. Harvard Square is certainly accessible from Brandeis’s campus (I’ve ridden the free shuttle multiple times!), but it’s not very convenient (only runs every hour and a half), and there’s really something to be said for having the city as part of your campus, rather than somewhere you have leave your peers to travel to. Just like I wouldn’t tell someone to come to Harvard if they really want to spend lots of time in Boston, I wouldn’t tell someone to go to Brandeis if they want to spend lots of time in Harvard Square or Boston. In both cases, the places are accessible, but given a busy schedule and lots of events on campus, you just won’t go there as often as you’d like.</p>

<p>One last thing to keep in mind - make sure your D has been in touch with current students who have the fellowship she received. I know (from experience) that sometimes things like this look great on paper but don’t end up being very meaningful or helpful in practice, so just be sure to check!</p>

<p>Good luck & congratulations again!</p>

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<p>tot-enot, on the core issue of educational environment in the Life Sciences, if you haven’t seen it, you should watch the interview on the Brandeis website with Greg Petsko, Professor of Biochem, who left MIT to come to Brandeis. He discusses his reasons as to why he found Brandeis to be, in his words, “a better place” to teach and for his students to learn. Here’s a link to the “video tour” page which you may need to paste into your browser: [url=<a href=“http://www.brandeis.edu/admissions/videotour/]Tour[/url”>http://www.brandeis.edu/admissions/videotour/]Tour[/url</a>]. Then, you may need to click through to the faculty interviews to find Petsko.</p>

<p>As for just_forget-me’s point about comparative diversity, it does appear from the stats that Harvard’s diversity does exceed Brandeis’ at least in terms of its Asian population. However, at approximately 25% minorities/internationals, Brandeis is considerably diverse. I would suggest that the comment about “middle-upper-class Jews” at Brandeis is based more in sterotype than reality. In fact the comment that people of the Jewish faith plus internationals and minorities, including Asians, somehow should be considered as coming from “very similar backgrounds” and, therefore, demonstrates a lack of diversity, simply doesn’t make sense since such people are in fact from diverse backgrounds. Moreover, Brandeis was founded on the very principles of non-discrimination and is a very welcoming, inclusive environment for folks of all backgrounds. It has a strong international flavor (in fact the majority of The Brandeis International Business School is international students). </p>

<p>As you must know, Brandeis is a small liberal arts school matched with a first-rate research university. The net of it is you get high-powered professors who actually teach undergrads in small classes. And the research opportunities are tremendous. </p>

<p>I find that it has an exciting intellectual environment that I would compare to its UAA sister school, U of Chicago (FYI its President is a Brandeis alum) only Brandeis’ is more relaxed and more undergraduate-oriented. Despite their intellectual bent, Brandeis students are down-to-earth, friendly and non-competitive with one another. Plus, if your D has any interest in the theater/music/arts or political activism, those scenes are great with tons of opportunites</p>

<p>Given Harvard’s prestige, a Brandeis over Harvard decision for undergrad obviously is a difficult one. But it would not be the first time that such a decision favored Brandeis. Again, the right fit for your D is the crucial question.</p>

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<p>Is Brandeis actually cheaper after the $10K scholarship? In my experience, Harvard generally underprices its competition after aid by significant amounts. My Ds go there for less than it would have cost them to attend their in-state public flagship AFTER full-tuition scholarships.</p>

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<p>please, please do NOT murder your daughters already bright future by making this decision. Im sorry, it sounds very very bad, but thats how it is. Its Harvard. You cant turn down Harvard unless its for a similar school. Harvard for the win, IMHO.</p>

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<p>Thank you very much for everyone who has replied so far, I was keeping quiet to avoid steering the conversation.</p>

<p>I would love to her more opinions of course, but let me answer some questions:</p>

<p>Brandeis does come out about 40K cheaper to us (but everyones math is different) and given that we pay most of the rest - we would not mind avoiding 40K in debt. It is about 20 minutes from home by car so living at home in senior years is a possibility and D is not opposed. Harvard is on direct bus route home, but from what I gather it is not feasible not to live on campus for both social and time constraints. </p>

<p>My D graduated near very top of the class from a public high school, so Harvard’s “small fish in big pond” concept will be a novelty to her and even though it is probably very useful life experience, I am not sure how ready she is for that. She is definitely ready for hard work, but not at necessarily to climb over others who work side-by-side with her. She is self-motivated, but will still needs guidance, ie, she does not need to be reminded of due dates or managing her time, but will probably need career/course guidance and may not have a ready-made idea of a project to work on.</p>

<p>The fact that there are more Harvard and MIT people entering grad school is hardly suprising given how selective they have been to begin with, question for me is how many Harvard’s “small fish” did not get in? Is Harvard’s B student favorably compared to Brandeis A one? </p>

<p>She has been in touch with current fellows of Brandeis program and they are ecstatic about it.</p>

<p>Thank you again for the constructive discussion!</p>

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<p>tot_enot: It appears like you are trying to word your posts neutrally but it seems to me you are very strongly in favor of Brandeis. The basic thrust of your argument seems to be: “My daughter will need close mentorship and nurturing and she will not find it as easily at Harvard as she will at Brandeis”. </p>

<p>The problem is, none of us knows knows your daughter so it is not really possible to say how much to weigh that factor against all the others.</p>

<p>What we can say is that there is no contest…NONE…between Brandeis and Harvard when it comes to Biochemistry and Molecular Biology. </p>

<p>If she chooses (and I hope she is the one choosing, not you) Brandeis over Harvard she will be choosing an academically inferior option because she wants a more nurturing environment. Do not kid yourself into thinking that Brandeis will provide an education comparable in quality to the one she would get at Harvard.</p>

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<p>No matter what happens, please don’t let your daughter live at home for her senior year…</p>

<p>I came to Harvard four years ago from a small pond (a small, public Midwestern high school), and I’m so incredibly glad that I came to a big pond. Being surrounded by people smarter + more accomplished than me has been so inspiring (certainly frustrating at times as well). And here you will inevitably experience some sort of rejection, failure, or disappointment (I certainly have), and learning how to cope with this and move on is one of the most important things I’ve learned at Harvard.</p>

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<p>I totally agree with just<em>forget</em>me on both points.</p>

<p>Learning to be a small fish in a big pond is an absolutely crucial life experience, particularly for someone who wants to go on to a PhD program. I am a postdoc at Harvard in the life sciences, and being able to learn from big fish is one of the greatest privileges of being involved in academic research. Most people struggle with adjusting to no longer being the star at some point in their academic career, and I think the earlier you do this, the better. I was an undergrad at MIT, and by the time I started grad school, I was able to enjoy and appreciate the incredible people around me without being intimidated. I saw others go through this process in grad school, and they inevitably had a much harder time. As an undergrad, there is a huge support system to help you transition, whereas as a grad student you are mostly on your own.</p>

<p>Best of luck with your decision!</p>

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<p>If we are to take the last three pro-Harvard posters literally, there never is an advantage to choosing an excellent but smaller, more nuturing educational environment over a more cut-throat and intimidating context. I understand that this is the Harvard forum, not the Amherst, Williams, Swarthmore, Brandeis or other excellent small college/university forum. So you’ll have to trust me that there are students that have made that very choice of a smaller, more nuturing environment over the larger one and have been extremely successful and happy. I mentioned some in my earlier posts as illustration–Nobel Laureate, Fields Medal winner and, yes, even Harvard professors, all of whom flourished at Brandeis. Examples from the other smaller schools I mentioned plus more would fill out that picture. Also, I referenced a distinguised Brandeis Biochem provessor who switched from MIT to Brandeis. Harvard prestige is not a substitute for the right fit for each person. Just my opinion.</p>

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<p>If the choice was Amherst or Williams, it might be a closer call. Brandeis is a fine school, but it’s really in a different league. The difference in money is significant, but not huge.</p>

<p>As far as the idea she would live at home her senior year, that is very, very unlikely, whichever school she goes to, after three years on campus.</p>

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<p>B77: None of the three posts you referenced in your last post said anything about prestige. Prestige has nothing to do with this discussion.</p>

<p>As I said in my post, none of us knows the OP’s daughter. She may be someone who benefits from the more nurturing, but yes, academically inferior, environment of Brandeis. Is it possible that Brandeis would be a better fit for a given student? Most emphatically yes. But the student should know that she is making a trade-off.</p>

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<p>@B77 - My brother turned down Harvard for Williams. I encouraged him - it was a better fit.</p>

<p>That said:

  1. Williams is ranked higher than Brandeis - has a stronger faculty, more competitive admissions.
  2. My brother still have up quite a bit, in terms of opportunities, diversity, and surroundings to go to Williams. For him it was worth it, and it may be worth it for the OP’s daughter to go to Brandeis - you just need to make sure you understand what you’re getting and what you’re losing when you make your decision.</p>
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<p>Brandeis has a distinguished science faculty and research facilities (including a brand new $200 milion science center). Unlike Williams or Amherst which are liberal arts colleges, Brandeis is a nationally-recognized research center as well as a small, nuturing liberal arts college. Your allowance for Williams and Amherst and the bald statement that they are in “a different league” continues to suggest that your positions are based not on quality or fit but on a personal definition of prestige. Forbes recent college rankings placed Brandeis in the top fifteen national research universities based in part on its undergraduate focus and successful alumni. many larger institutions, including some in the Ivy League, did not fare as well. See: </p>

<p>[vedder</a> / 28 / 08 / 2008 / Views / Home - Inside Higher Ed](<a href=“http://www.insidehighered.com/layout/set/print/views/2008/08/28/vedder]vedder”>http://www.insidehighered.com/layout/set/print/views/2008/08/28/vedder)</p>

<p>Of course, you can reject these rankings out of hand to support your own view, or you can recognize that all rankings, including USNWR, and notions of prestige are subjective and should be considered as one factor, not the controlling one. Of course Harvard’s prestige is based in large part on its quality. But that does not make it everybody’s cup of tea nor the right fit for everyone.</p>

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<p>“And here you will inevitably experience some sort of rejection, failure, or disappointment (I certainly have), and learning how to cope with this and move on is one of the most important things I’ve learned at Harvard.”</p>

<p>Well said and very true.</p>

<p>OP: If you are measuring bus routes and car time home (both schools clearly being very closeby) and considering having your daughter live home senior year … there are probably more factors than the posters are aware of. Harvard is indeed a place where there is little hand-holding. One of the parents who posts frequently on this board lives in walking distance of Harvard, and I believe she rarely sees her son during the school year. I don’t think one can truly anticipate grad school acceptances at this time. Your daughter, being who she is, is likely to do well wherever she winds up. The question is, where will she be happy … and how independent does she want to be?</p>

<p>Also, (not to sound rude as I truly don’t mean it that way) … her SATs no longer have any bearing on anything. They will never be brought up again at Harvard and probably not at Brandeis either.</p>