Turning down P S U Honors for Swarthmore?

<p>I think you should choose Swarthmore. While I’m not in college, I’m a non-degree high school student taking classes at PSU, two of my sisters go there, and most of my immediate family teaches there.</p>

<p>If you think that it is likely that you will fall into “mediocre obscurity” at PSU, then maybe Swarthmore is better. Not to mention, it is excellent and has a smaller environment. At PSU, a lot of the classes are large and/or frequently taught by TAs - the professors often care more about research (although there are some excellent professors there).</p>

<p>I don’t feel that Schreyer’s has the same lazy attitude as PSU as a whole. What I mean by that is that going to PSU doesn’t guarantee that you will be the smartest in the class and going to Swarthmore doesn’t mean that you’re doomed to being average. [But yeah, generally, PSU students party and don’t focus on academics - and to the poster above, PSU students also become alcoholics not because they are pushed academically, but because binge drinking is everywhere…so that’s not a good reason to go for PSU]</p>

<p>Swarthmore sounds better if you are less likely to burn out or slack off. Also spectator sports are huge at PSU, but there are quirky and artsy people at PSU, too, they are just in the minority. Good luck with your decision.</p>

<p>I think it would be helpful to hear from people at Schreyer’s. I am not convinced that it is the cakewalk you make it out to be. I am admittedly not familiar with the program, but I think it is made up of students with stats well above the “typical PSU” student. It may not be just an extension of high school after all.</p>

<p>my s is at schreyer. These kids are top students, and some of them are quirky and artsy. The college makes it very easy to mix - some stay within that mix - others don’t. It’s really up to you.
From our experience, most of the honors kids take two or maybe three honors courses each semester in the first couple of years. These courses are small, pretty intense and taught by top profs. The non-honors courses can be large…but get smaller in junior and senior year (when most kids also take less honors courses). All in all though, it’s not a cake walk, especially in the tougher majors. Study abroad is encouraged (with grants), advising is better, and there is a real community of exceptional students if you care to join in.<br>
I’m not sure why you didn’t attend one of the Schreyer accepted students sessions. They give you a good feel for the types of kids in the program and the opportunities available. There are MANY very impressive kids in this program. And the Dean is a great (and very smart) guy who loves to reach out and get to know the students.<br>
All that said, Swarthmore and Penn State are about as different as night and day. The honors college DOES make a difference but PSU is still a big bustling school with lots of school spirit and LOTS of focus on the football team. Some might think that’s fun (my s does) but I guess some might gag at the thought of shouting “we are…”
In any case, yes, it is certainly possible to slip down to a level of mediocrity at PSU. There’s plenty of company there. Not so many in the honors college though…for sure.
But it really is your choice. For a 100k towards law school, I think I might try to figure out how to use the resources of the honors college to ensure that didn’t happen. Again, a visit would have been helpful. Talking to your friends is NOT enough.
100K is a LOT of money - wow that’s the cost of law school right there.
Good luck to you.</p>

<p>I would go ahead and plan a visit to Penn State if you have time left. The honors program has the best students and if you attended you will most likely be surrounded by them and they will motivate you. Also, maybe at Penn State, you can learn to self-motivate yourself(that would be a good experience in itself). Also, Penn State may make you want to work harder so you wouldn’t be in “mediocre obscurity”. I would say go to Penn State and make your motivation to get into a good law school. Besides, Would you rather shell out an extra 100k so you can be motivated? </p>

<p>In the end, it’s all up to you,</p>

<p>Good luck with your decision!</p>

<p>I would visit Penn State if you can. I would choose Penn State because Schreyer is one of the best honors colleges in the country. I heard that 800 were accepted out of 2400 that applied this year. (I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure they are the numbers) I was rejected from the Honors College, but I am still attending Penn State. Penn State has approximately 660 different clubs with everything ranging from the Monty Python Society to Greek Life. </p>

<p>In the end, it all comes down to where you will be happiest. </p>

<p>Good Luck with your decision.</p>

<p>ee33ee- About your idea that you’d get more attention as a top student at PennState- See, the great thing about Swat is that teachers don’t give attention based on grades. You don’t have to be a top student to talk to your professors. One of my friends had a class of 3 students as a freshman. You definitely get to know professors like that.</p>

<p>But, yeah, you should visit Penn State. Even though I couldn’t imagine turning down Swat, it’s all about YOUR fit. Swat can be potentionally incredibly stressful and it’s really for people who LOVE learning, so if that’s not the kind of environment you want, that’s okay. Visiting Penn State would be good- and while you’re there, eat some ice cream! That’s what I did, haha.</p>

<p>D got into PSU and Swartmore so I understand your choices completely. (although for us, there was truly no choice).</p>

<p>The schools are very different, and not to be preachy because I dont know you and I do not presume to know who you are, but I think you should figure out what you are about first and the schools will fall into place. </p>

<p>You are obviously an extremely intelligent person and it come down to whether you are happy living in mediocrity because of fear or whether your quest is a courageous one towards personal excellence (even if you do not end up #1 in your class).</p>

<p>I hope that makes sense.</p>

<p>It sounds to me that your struggle is “big fish/small pond vs small fish/big pond”. You think at PSU you will be a top student with little effort and at SC, even at your best, you will be average. </p>

<p>Truth is, ee33ee, it doesn’t really matter as long as you are at your best! </p>

<p>It sounds like you dont want to be challenged at 100% effort - whether at PSU Schreyers or SC…neither of which is a walk in the park. And I will venture to say that you will stand out in either programs and you will get the attention of the professors as long as you show effort and a passion for learning. </p>

<p>You should see your years in college as preparing to make a diference in the world - not just as an execise in “getting by”. That, to me, is the sad definition of mediocrity.</p>

<p>Good luck in your choice - and who knows, you may be sitting next to D next year! (she also plans to go to Law school - that’s why the choice was an easy one).</p>

<p>“You are obviously an extremely intelligent person and it come down to whether you are happy living in mediocrity because of fear or whether your quest is a courageous one towards personal excellence (even if you do not end up #1 in your class).”</p>

<p>I wouldn’t characterize students at PSU Schreyers as “living in mediocrity” and I know Swarthmore students who aren’t pursuing “personal excellence.” I think a student can live in mediocrity or pursue personal excellence at both schools, and the choice is up to each individual student. </p>

<p>I think $100,000 banked for law school mitigates any perceived edge Swarthmore might have over PSU Schreyers. Admission to law school is largely a matter of GPA and LSAT scores, and PSU will prepare a motivated student for law school as well as Swarthmore. Check some elite law school websites and you can see that students come from a wide variety of schools. Their common ground is high GPAs and top LSAT scores.</p>

<p>Yeah, joix, why was the choice an easy one because your daughter is going to law school? Maybe S is cheaper than PSU for you? I assume she chose S. Hey for 100K in the bank for law school, I would think PSU Schreyer would be the “no brainer” - unless of course, the overall environment there is a horrible match.
PSU Schreyer kids who do well get into awesome med and law schools - for that matter there are plenty who are not in the honors program who do just as well. You’re right though, it’s what you make of it. This applies in some measure to ALL schools.</p>

<p>I vote swarthmore. If you are quirky and intellectual, and aren’t into the typical college preppy experience with bigtime spectator sports, then it is head and shoulders above Penn State. Plus, it is an amazing place to go academically (I can’t see Penn State, honors or not, being at the same level), and from what I understand (I have a friend there now) it is just awesome.</p>

<p>is it not true though, that going to swarthmore (or any school for that matter) and finding a possition in a firm could get you through law school. My cousin in fact when to UPitt, and had her law school (At Upenn, not PSU) payed by her employer. In graduate studies, loans and grants are much larger in most instances too.
it seems as though money is not much of an issue, and in that case I would choose the school you really like most. Who cares about ranking when both schools have names that can easily help you out. go where you like the most.</p>

<p>again, many people on CC are current students and have not gone through the hiring process. Your college name will have some impact, but the alumni networks, professors you meet, and post college education will have quite the impact as well.</p>

<p>Swarthmore seems like a great place, and knowing the types of people who go to penn state (at least 30 kids from my class of 180 went there), it is a jockey/party/Lions pride sort of place, but it also comes with an absolutely enormous alumni record, especially in Pennsylvania.</p>

<p>just some stuff to think about.</p>

<p>I’m a big believer that “personal fit” should come above anything when it comes to college decision. It sounds like you think Swarthmore would be a good fit for your personality while Penn State will not. That alone, I believe, should determine your choice.</p>

<p>Now, academically, I think there’s no question whether the “average” student at Swat or Penn gets a better education. When it comes to the question of whether you’d get a better education by being among the best at Penn State or fairly average at Swat…well, that’s somewhat debatable. For what it’s worth, even as one of the best students at Penn State, you won’t get more professor attention than at Swat (although you may get as much). IMO, even for the best students, Swat is a better option; your out-of-the-classroom-community will shape your learning almost as much as your in-the-classroom-community, and there’s no question at which college is this academic community more vibrant. Regardless, this is somewhat debatable, and as other posters brought up, it sounds like you’re more likely to academically excel in an environment where you’re driven to success (like Swarthmore) than in an environment where you can easily slack off (like Penn State). Given this, I think Swat is easily the best academic option for you.</p>

<p>Professionally, some posters have alluded to the fact that law schools care mostly about GPA and LSATs. That’s partially true, but you get a pretty respectable bump from going to the top schools–if you look at Harvard Law School or Berkeley Law School and compare matriculated students…the average GPA of law alumns is pretty significantly lower than the average GPA of Berkeley alumns–there seems pretty clearly to be a “Yale” bump in law school admissions. Swat is regarded as highly as Yale in professional circles, while PSU is not as highly regarded as Berkeley–you can count on a pretty substantial GPA “bump” from attending Swarthmore over PSU. Additionally, as has been mentioned earlier, there’s an initial Pass-Fail period at Swarthmore. As most students get their worse grades in their first several semesters, this period tends to be incredibly helpful, GPA-wise. Finally, you seem like the sort of student who will work up to a challenge, but maybe not necessarily past it (I am like this, most of my high school friends are like this). My GPA in college matched almost exactly the GPA I earned in high school. My friends’ GPAs in college almost exactly matched the GPAs they earned in high school. We went to schools ranging from Cornell to University of Maryland and worked about as hard as these colleges required us to in order to earn the grades we have always gotten. It sounds like you will most likely be like this as well, and in that case, there is no question that professionally Swarthmore would be a better option. </p>

<p>That leaves us with the financial question. Ultimately, I agree with one of the earlier posters that this is your parents money and as they seem able to afford it, you shouldn’t stress out about it. Law school is expensive, but most law schools give a fairly significant amount of loans (and even grants) out. Even more crucially, even if you go into public interest (or some other form of relatively low paying) law, you’ll still be making more than enough money to pay back your loans. $100,000 is a lot of money, but I think you’ll find that paying it back over 30 (or 5 or 10) years at a lawyers’ salary isn’t as difficult as you may think. However, the biggest difference is what that $100,000 could get you. It could easily be the difference between you going to a top 15 law school or going to your regional mediocre law school. It could easily be the difference between four enjoyable years of college (what should be some of the best years of your life) and four fairly mediocre years of college. Obviously, it could also not…but in your case, it sounds pretty clearly like Swarthmore–even at the extra cost–is the better option.</p>

<p>“However, the biggest difference is what that $100,000 could get you. It could easily be the difference between you going to a top 15 law school or going to your regional mediocre law school”.
Overstating the case here IMO. And scare tactics like this might actually work on young impressionable minds.<br>
Schreyer kids in particular do VERY well with graduate admissions. Why? Self selection just like Swarthmore. These are top kids. Regional mediocre law school? Come on…
Again, if PSU is a poor fit, go ahead and spend the extra $. But it is the OPs money, not the parents since they are willing to put it away for law school. Graduate school debt is any better than UG debt.
Finally, I don’t see how the OP could be clear about anything since he never even visited PSU and their honors college. Check it out and then decide. Swarthmore may indeed be a better fit but the OP needs to go in with eyes wide open on both choices.</p>

<p>@ dntw8up - mmm…just goes to show how much can be lost in transltion. I never said PSU students are living in mediocrity. I said that ee33ee has to decide whether he/she wants to live in mediocrity - with the reference being that mediocrity is not meeting your personal best (wherever one attends). I am surprised how you misread my comments. Speed reading, maybe?</p>

<p>If you had read my post carefully, you would have seen where I wrote that neither school is a walk in the park. It is unfortunate that you read my comments the way you did. I want to say emphatically that I do not believe that PSU students are mediocre - I would not have let D apply there if I thought so. </p>

<p>For the person who asked, it was an easy choice for us because D got more aid from one school over the other. So with the knowledge that more was yet to come it was a no brainer for our family that she go where we had less financial burden at the undergraduate level.</p>

<p>I dont think I disclosed in this thread which school D chose - all of you assumed Swarthmore for some reason. </p>

<p>If you read my post to ee33ee you will see that I was not telling him/her where to go…I was telling him/her to do some introspection and not get caught up in which school he/she can sail through and then the choice of school will come easily.</p>

<p>since it will be law school, what major are you planning to take? probably it will be better to compare what both schools have in terms of the major you’ll take. in my understanding psu has more courses of study to choose than swarthmore, but swarthmore is probably better in the liberal arts.</p>

<p>Sounds like chameleon syndrome. You tend to mirror the people around you. My brother went to Penn State, my brother-in-law to Swarthmore, and from talking to them, I’d bet it’d be easier to slip into mediocrity at Penn State than Swarthmore. And just by your writing (“spectator sports has always puzzled me”) you sound like the typical Swarthmore student. The cost savings of Penn State won’t help much if you don’t excel there. I say you’re better off at Swarthmore. Let the high caliber of students there rub off on you. It’s worth the money.</p>

<p>I don’t offer advice when there is a financial aspect to the college choice because I can’t possibly evaluate the impact of the additional cost on someone else’s family. If I were to offer advice, I think those who know how thrilled I am with my daughter’s experience at Swarthmore can probably guess how would answer. There is no better undergraduate academic experience.</p>

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<p>I cannot let this comment from another poster pass without saying it is complete, unadulterated, rubbish. Swarthmore has one of the lower student “binge drinking rates” in the country. Towards the low end of the scale nationally. It’s one of the characteristics of Swarhmore that relates to an unusually high level of academic engagement (although I’m not sure if the academics results from moderate drinking or the moderate drinking results from high levels of academic engagement.)</p>

<p>Penn State has one of, if not THE highest, survey binge drinking rates in the country. Off the charts high. Breath-takingly high. “Makes many famous party schools look like temperance societies” high. Never seen another school even close to Penn State’s binge drinking rates. Double-digits ABOVE the national average. Basically blotto.</p>

<p>Anyone who suggests that you will encounter more heavy drinking at Swarthmore than at Penn State is just feeding you a wagon-load of horse manure, to put it bluntly. In fact, the insane levels of surveyed binge drinking at Penn State would be the #1 reason I would discourage a child of mine from attending. Those levels of binge drinking are highly corrosive to the academics and the overall campus culture at a college or university and it is the non-drinkers and moderate drinkers who pay the price for it.</p>

<p>interesteddad and I rarely agree but I think we can agree on this–Swarthmore might have some drinking and drugs, but everywhere does. Without a doubt, Swarthmore is on the low level of substance abuse compared to, well, any school you want to compare Swat to. </p>

<p>Penn State, on the other hand, is a party school for the ages. That is not to say that there aren’t tons of non-drinkers at Penn State (and unlike interesteddad, except in special cases, I would hesitate basing your decision entirely on that, especially given how large Penn State is and consequently how many non-drinkers there will be)…but you can count on encountering more substance abusers at Penn State than at Swarthmore.</p>

<p>Ee33ee, remember to post your choice! It’s a pretty interesting decision.</p>

<p>I was stunned when I stumbed across Penn State’s binge drinking rate. Usually state universities (even notorious party schools like Florida State), don’t have binge drinking rates much above the national average – probably because high rates of binge drinking correlate with high income, high-socio-economic students and state universities cover a broader spectrum.</p>

<p>BTW, there are many schools with binge drinking rates 10% or so below the national average like Swarthmore. From published reports I’ve come across, all of the womens colleges, Pomona, and several of the better midwestern LACs all fall in the same range.</p>