<p>This Youtube video [YouTube</a> - Penn State Fans are Stupid](<a href=“http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inBEd-B7D9I]YouTube”>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inBEd-B7D9I) would seem to support the drinking comments made above - either heaven or hell depending on your perspective…</p>
<p>There is one factor in your equation that you seem to take as known but that is really an unknown – that you will be going to law school. You are 17 or 18 and have not yet even sat in one college lecture hall. Maybe you will wind up in law school or maybe you will end up teaching 6th grade English or you will be the director of development for the symphony of a large West Coast city or you will be a professor of anthropology at a large Midwestern university or you might end up as a writer of organic cookbooks living in a log cabin in Colorado with a cat and a pet coyote. At this point you just have some ideas about what you might like to do. You may (probably will) change your mind many times between now and later. </p>
<p>I don’t know if realizing law school is not a given will tip you one way or the other on the PSU/Swarthmore choice, but it is something you need to take into account in making your decision.</p>
<p>Also, if you don’t want to sink into mediocrity because you would not be suitably challenged at PSU Honors, then don’t. Resolve to push yourself to be the best, to be the #1 student at PSU Honors. I suspect you will find that it will not be as easy as you think, which will push you to achieve and succeed. </p>
<p>Finally, $100,000 is a serious amount of money. As a parent, and a one-time 17-year old who had a similar decision to make (U Penn vs William & Mary as an in-state, albeit some 25+ years ago), you have to ask yourself is the one $100,000 better than the other? Will you get $100,000 more education, maturation, cosmic insight than the other? Would your answers be the same if it was money coming out of your pocket instead of someone else’s pocket? </p>
<p>Disclaimer: At 17, I knew that I would either end up a high-paid lawyer or the editor of Time magazine. I chose the better value but just as good if not better William & Mary (and were my parents relieved and so was I five years later when I didn’t have to spend 10 years paying back student loans). Oh, and I realized about half a semester in that if I pursued the lawyer thing, I would have to resort to taking long (8 inches? No, 12!) sharp spikes and jabbing them repeatedly into my eyes. So, now I teach 5th grade (and a bunch of 10 and 11 year olds dream of jabbing me with long, sharp weapons).</p>
<p>Good luck . . . </p>
<p>K9Leader</p>
<p>Hey guys, I visited PSU this week</p>
<p>First of all, I just wanted to say that maneuvering my way into a top law school is not a big priority for me. I am anything but a hurried pre-professional. I only mentioned it to avoid facing the bigger issues. The financial costs of law school is what I am really worried about. Oh and I know I can’t be sure about law this early, but I’m preeetty sure I’ll be going to graduate school of some sort. So yes I think the extra finances can be taken as a known.</p>
<p>I plan on studying economics with maybe a double major or minor in philosophy - not too outlandish stuff. I was extremely impressed with PSU’s campus and I actually felt a more healthy “vibe” from the open air, wide mountain ranges, and campus sprawl. I prefer a roomier atmosphere with modern facilities, and the campus wasn’t TOO big as I had imagined. And the choices, not just in terms of courses but in terms of entertainment, food, and people, were just astounding (sorry, I’m a huge stickler for food… as much as spectator sports puzzles me, it irritates me far more when people are oh-so-worried about minute differences in academic quality when they happily ignore that diet is a huge factor in academic success).</p>
<p>However, the guides started our tour with “WE ARE PENN STATE”, rounded it out with “Let me guess which other schools [in the Big 10] you applied to…”, and finished it with “Football is, of course, the biggest thing here”. Wrong tour guide, or wrong school?</p>
<p>I actually don’t have an issue with the drinking rates - as long as I can find my niche, I’m not bothered if the rest of the school goes binge-drinking every night. The main reason why I’m inclined to give Penn State a chance is because two of my best friends - one of whom happens to be the most intellectually vivacious person I know, and one of whom happens to have the most unique idiosyncratically pleasing sense of humor - are going to similar schools. The first had PSU Honors as his top top top choice (didn’t get in Schreyers, but got into Cornell…) and the second is going to a state school in Georgia. I hold these two in the highest esteem possible, and if either are at all representative of SOME of the PSU Honors kids… well I would have a great time I think. On the other hand, the only Swarthmore attendee that I know is the archetype of the kind of student I’m afraid I’ll see too much of there - quirky yes, but in a bad way.</p>
<p>Well, I appreciate all of your posts. I know I’m running out of time.</p>
<p>“I actually don’t have an issue with the drinking rates - as long as I can find my niche, I’m not bothered if the rest of the school goes binge-drinking every night.”</p>
<p>I’d be shocked if that turns out to be true - especially when you have to step around the results.</p>
<p>But there still might be good reason to do so.</p>
<p>Yep. It’s too bad more high school students don’t read some of the survey data on just how disruptive high binge drinking rates are on the non-drinkers and moderate-drinkers, who bear the overwhelming brunt of it.</p>
<p>They don’t “go” binge-drinking every night. They do it right there in your dorm. So you have to try to sleep with drunks banging up and down the hall, puking in your bathroom.</p>
<p>Here’s some data from Penn State’s own 2004 survey.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.sa.psu.edu/sara/pulse/120-Drinking.PDF[/url]”>http://www.sa.psu.edu/sara/pulse/120-Drinking.PDF</a></p>
<p>Percent of Penn State Students Experiencing
Consequences from Other Students’ Drinking</p>
<p>Been insulted or humiliated: 32.1%
Had a serious argument or quarrel: 36.6%<br>
Been pushed, hit, or assaulted: 14.7%
Had your property damaged: 24.7%
Had your studying or sleep interrupted: 64.7%
Had to ‘baby-sit’ a student who drank too much: 60.0%
Experienced an unwanted sexual advance: 20.5%
Been a victim of unwanted sexual experience: 5.5%</p>
<p>Binge drinking rates at Penn State</p>
<p>2001 Survey 55.8%
2002 Survey 52.1%
2003 Survey 60.4%
2004 Survey 55.2%</p>
<p>2001 National average: 44.4%</p>
<p>Percentage of all Penn State students suffering
an alcohol blackout in the previous year</p>
<p>2003 Survey: 35.6%
2004 Survey: 33.8%</p>
<p>Let that sink in. One third of all PSU students suffered an alcohol blackout, during which they had no memory of their actions.</p>
<p>But Penn is a very large school, so basically the students will be highly stratified.</p>
<p>I have this dilemma too, choosing between UVA and a cheaper state school (to which I was accepted with an Honors programme). What’s especially kept me thinking so far is that just because it’s a state school with less-than-the-brightest peers on average doesn’t mean that extremely bright people won’t be there and doesn’t mean that you’ll still be surrounded with brilliant people. Just be very discerning about the friends you make, hang with the right crowd, etc. Top faculty exists even at state schools (I speak for state schools in general). Take the hardest classes with the most talented professors. </p>
<p>This is somewhat related thematically to that admissions union thread I made 
along with the question of whether paying top dollar is worth having more bright peers in a school per capita. People have told me very different things – “there’s an advantage to being a big fish in a small pond” versus the idea that the income adjustment your school will yield directly and indirectly will be worth the costs. Can a determined student truly succeed at any school, or will the differential in nurture make a huge difference? </p>
<p>Oh, I’m still drafting a response to the article you gave me, ee33ee. 
It is very pertinent to our current decision problems, I think.</p>
<p>interesteddad: an eye-opener … it’s an unexpected factor unrelated to the central dilemma of “do you have the capability to forge your own success or is it nurtured into you” when choosing a school, but this also reminds me of a friend who went to Penn state. </p>
<p>She was a reasonably bright girl (top 15-25%) who was in my fifth year French class last year. Star athlete. Mischievous but lovable and bubbly. I’d thought she’d do very well. </p>
<p>I’m almost horrified at what’s happening to her. I’m not sure whether it’s an inherent fault of Penn State (she could just be mixing with the wrong crowd), but yes, she’s picked up a drinking habit [beyond just the general “yes I am not against taking a few sips of alcohol at a party” sentiment that I tolerate and that 95% of students seem to share nowadays]. Her attitude to life IMO, changed for the worse [though I’m not that a close friend to tell her this]. The Facebook photos of her drinking are also very telling. </p>
<p>Also have I been really really in the dark, or are there people like me who were previously unaware of the pervasiveness of the national youth drinking problem – up until a month ago I wasn’t aware that drinking habits were a really really common feature even at “top 25” schools. I thought it was something confined to the less-informed, delinquent youth. Maybe it’s because the only people who talk about their drinking in public (on the bus, in class when the teacher’s far away, etc.) tend to be C students (at my school at least). I guess the A-student drinkers keep their habits private.</p>
<p>Just a few quick points here on PSU drinking from the mom of a Schreyer student.
First, PSU is VERY straightforward about tracking and publishing the rates of binge drinking on campus. You might find it harder to find these stats from other schools. They KNOW they have a problem - and they are open about it. We have friends who have kids at other schools who report serious problems, including Dartmouth, Williams, and Vanderbilt. So, let’s not just bash the big public schools here.
Second, being in the honors college can make a big difference as they have dedicated dorms that are filled with serious students. I’m not saying these dorms are quiet (some of the honors kids are drinkers for sure) but they are a far cry from the environment in other dorms on campus. This would be true to of other special living options, including Musical Theatre and Business and Discovery dorms. You CAN get away from living with kids who drink every night. It’s really not that hard.
Last, to the OP, it’s great that you were able to visit the PSU campus. I agree that it’s beautiful and not at all as large as some would expect. I was impressed too. It’s a shame that it seems you were not able to meet some of the honors students. They are a great, down-to-earth and very SMART bunch of kids. And they’re doing fine - even though folks like interestedDAD would find that hard to believe. They actually LIKE it there. Wow. Many of them go on to top schools and top jobs. They have figured it out. Do a few go off on the wrong track? Probably, but less than the overall population there. Honors kids have an average GPA of 3.8. Don’t know the freshman retention rate but PSU overall is 94%.<br>
All that said, I know lots of kids and alumni at PSU who had nothing to do with the honors college and they are doing just fine. Good grades, good jobs. Love their school. Listening to interesteddad, I would think they would all be alcoholics. Not even close.
Yeah, go in with your eyes wide open…there’s lots of drinking. But NOT a reason to blindly reject the school. It has warts, but also lots to offer. 100K is a LOT of money and your are very fortunate to have been accepted to the honors college. Good luck to you!</p>
<p>Toneranger:</p>
<p>I agree with most everything you have written.</p>
<p>The President of Penn State has been very upfront about the out-of-control drinking. He’s called it the biggest problem facing higher education today.</p>
<p>I totally agree that schools such as those you mention also have serious problems. I have not seen binge drinking data for Vandy, but Williams and Dartmouth are both above national averages and non-drinkers/moderate-drinkers on both campuses pay a heavy price. As I pointed out, the problem actually may be worse at the ladi-da-da private schools. College binge-drinking is, to some extent, a rich kids’ scene. Lower-income and minorty students binge drink at much lower rates, statistically. </p>
<p>It is certainly possible to work around the cohort of town drunks on any campus. Many students do it every day. But, that is not the same as pretending the disruption doesn’t exist.</p>
<p>The only reason I even brought this up is that someone had the nerve to say that the original poster would find more heavy drinking at Swarthmore than at Penn State. That’s just a load of crap (which is not to say that Swarthmore doesn’t have college drinking).</p>
<p>If you’ll note, I haven’t made a recommendation to the original poster. I can’t when there is a major financial component to the decision. At the same price, it’s a no-brainer (barring some specific need for the breadth and depth available at a large university). You’d have to be nuts to not go to the school with the endowment resources to spend $80,000 per student per year…every dime on undergrad education and quality of life for undergrads. </p>
<p>But, $100,000 is $100,000 and it’s not my place to tell someone else how to make large financial decisions.</p>
<p>“At the same price, it’s a no brainer”
No doubt that Swarthmore offers stronger academics and most certainly carries more prestige. Haverford College is similar. No argument here. But the environment is not for everyone. Way too small and quirky for a kid like my son who loves a big bustling college environment with big-time sports. A place like the honors college gives him some personal attention, smaller classes, priority registration, along with a Big Ten college experience. It has strong appeal for certain kids. Not for everyone though.
And yeah, I find it hard to believe that Swarthmore would have more heavy drinkers.<br>
Bottom line, these schools are REALLY different, honors college or not.</p>
<p>This sounds like one of those math/logisitics problems. </p>
<p>Your parents are willing to fork out X amount of money for honors at PSU + 100K for grad school or X+100K for Swarthmore. So you aren’t making decisions on some one else’s 100K, it’s actually your 100K. </p>
<p>If you go to honors PSU, and don’t do well enough to go to grad school, well, your parents save 100K. </p>
<p>If you go to Swarthmore, and don’t do well enough to go to grad school, it’s a wash. </p>
<p>If you go to PSU and do well enough to go to grad school then you have the the 100K to do that. </p>
<p>If you go to Swarthmore and do well enough to go to grad school you then have to figure out how to come up with grad school costs, through working or something.</p>
<p>However, only you can decide whether you can motivate yourself to do well or poorly in each environment. If you think you could motivate youself to do well at PSU, then you would have no financial worries for grad school. If you think you need Swarthmore to get motivated enough to do well then you would need to figure out the grad school financing, but not for 4 years. Maybe, by then, working for a few years, and then having your employer pay for grad school could be a viable option. Maybe you’ll decide you don’t want to go to grad school at all. And maybe these would be choices you’d also make out of PSU, and your parents would donate the 100K to a downpayment on your first house.</p>
<p>“Also have I been really really in the dark, or are there people like me who were previously unaware of the pervasiveness of the national youth drinking problem – up until a month ago I wasn’t aware that drinking habits were a really really common feature even at “top 25” schools. I thought it was something confined to the less-informed, delinquent youth.”</p>
<p>I think most are “unaware”, or don’t like to think about it, or think it wouldn’t be “their” child, or can’t see how it would affect our own little darlings. The data at PSU are unusually high, but in line with data at schools such as Williams, Dartmouth, Duke, etc. (In fact, the published blackout rate at Duke - from a study done at the Duke University Medical Center, is higher - and among white students, significantly higher still.) This means that one out of every two parents who sends their offspring to one of these schools ends up with a student who binges at least once every two weeks. Roughly a little under 3 of 10 becomes a heavy drinker (binges 3-4 times every weeks, or drinks nearly daily), and of those, about 60% will become either an alcoholic or experience serious alcohol problems in their adult lives (higher for males, and for whites.)</p>
<p>Having said that, it probably IS easier to avoid at least some of this at large state schools where there are specialized dorms or floors, etc., or, perhaps among honors program kids (though college drinking, as ID noted, tends to be higher among high-performing, wealthier, white students at prestige schools, I don’t know if that holds for honors program students). </p>
<p>Still, PSU Honors plus $100k actually spent on education should, at least in theory, trump Swarthmore educationally. But, if being certain of being among like-minded peers is the most important consideration, then Swarthmore will certainly be the more reassuring choice.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>In part because many state schools provide housing for so few of their students that it is debateable whether they even qualify as residential colleges.</p>
<p>I think that if I were an undergrad at a large state school, my strategy would be to set up shop as an off-campus independent young adult as soon as possible and treat the university as a resource rather than a residential experience.</p>
<p>That would likely make more sense at a Dartmouth or Duke and etc. than it would at a PSU. (The more urban state schools generally don’t have drinking rates as high, and there would be more places to escape from it.)</p>
<p>But then folks go to the prestige schools for the “total experience”. :rolleyes:</p>
<p>“I think that if I were an undergrad at a large state school, my strategy would be to set up shop as an off-campus independent young adult as soon as possible and treat the university as a resource rather than a residential experience.”</p>
<p>At any rate, that’s not a bad idea for many students anyway - that’s the way the European universities have done it for centuries.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>But I’m another HS student, though. </p>
<p>I don’t know, it’s just when I see those campaigns against teenage drinking and drunk driving, I go, “this doesn’t really apply to me, my school, or the schools we’re going to …” </p>
<p>Of course, I applied to my schools on fee waiver, but actually it was my impression that substance abuse tended to be more of a “slum” problem. I guess I don’t actually notice the extent of it because according to the others here it actually correlates with people of higher economic classes …</p>
<p>i go to penn state right now and have actually become obsessed with swarthmore (and am anxiously awaiting my admissions decision…).
the attributes of psu discussed within this thread are the reasons why i need to transfer. i really have too much to say, so if you’d like to ask any questions, lease feel free.</p>
<p>let me just say that i have been to swarthmore at least ten times now (crazy, i know) and can confidently state that it is almost the total opposite of psu.</p>
<p>@mini and interested dad</p>
<p>“I think that if I were an undergrad at a large state school, my strategy would be to set up shop as an off-campus independent young adult as soon as possible and treat the university as a resource rather than a residential experience.”</p>
<p>At any rate, that’s not a bad idea for many students anyway - that’s the way the European universities have done it for centuries."</p>
<p>I think this is so interesting. While I am completely familiar with the merits of this set-up, this is the anti-thesis of what most people on this board are looking for. “Fit”, individual attention, school spirit, any of the much-ballyhooed attributes of LACS completely go out the window. How many people do you think would actually go for this?</p>
<p>The vast, overwhelming majority. They do now. The median age of an undergraduate student in the U.S. is 24.5 years of age (half are older). Most do not attend residential colleges, or, if they did, in residence only one or two years. There are schools like the one my d. is planning to attend in DC where the majority of students live off campus after their second year. This is seen as a plus, not a minus.</p>
<p>But the students who travel these boards are usually 17 or 18. They are NOT the typical students. And the pattern set by the prestige colleges are not the typical colleges.</p>
<p>In my experience (my own and my kids), the biggest motivator for the “move off campus” crowd was freer partying and especially drinking.</p>