Wesleyan v. Swarthmore

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
1

<p>Hey there,</p>

<p>I was planning on applying ED 1 to Swarthmore, but I've kind of fallen in love with Wesleyan -- or at least their website -- over the weekend and I'll be visiting Wes on Tuesday. I'm sure that things will be much clearer once I've officially seen Wesleyan, but I'm worried that it might make me question my previous conviction. I mean, if I really love Wesleyan, then I'll really have to think again about applying to Swarthmore ED. </p>

<p>But anyway. I was just wondering if anyone could offer up the significant differences/similarities between the two schools. </p>

<p>Thanks so much!</p>

2

<p>Both are politically & socially very liberal schools with highly intelligent students. A significant number of Swarthmore students seem headed for careers in academia, probably as college professors & researchers. Wes tends to be a bit more varied. A visit to Wesleyan will probably make your choice much easier. For an interesting read try The Big Book of Colleges '08 by College Pro wler.</p>

3

<p>By the numbers:</p>

<p>Undergrad enrollment:
1491 Swarthmore
2817 Wesleyan</p>

<p>Diversity:</p>

<p>


Swat      Wes<br>
 8%          7%        African American
17%       11%        Asian American
10%         8%        Latino/a
 7%          6%        International
**56%       68%        White**

**Per student endowment** $985,795 Swarthmore $220,600 Wesleyan

**Per student endowment spending** $35,284 Swarthmore $10,200 Wesleyan

**Total spending per student (not inc fin. aid)** $78,427 Swarthmore $52,545 Wesleyan

**Avg total paid per student inc room/board** $30,417 Swarthmore $30,426 Wesleyan

Note: virtually all of Swarthmore's students live on campus. Wesleyan's number includes freebie tuition for grad students. The average undergrad at Wes pays more than the average Swarthmore student.

**Average financial aid (for all students)** $12,838 Swarthmore $11,381 Wesleyan

note: Swat has gone no loan for 2008, which will increase this number by about $4,000 for each aided student or by $2,000 averaged across the entire student body as this number is.

**Fall 2007 acceptance rates:** 17.7% Swarthmore 27.4% Wesleyan

**Fall 2007 SATs:** 1360-1540 Swarthmore 1300-1490 Wesleyan

**Classes under 20:** 73.8% Swarthmore 63.2% Wesleyan

**Classes over 50:** 1.6% Swarthmore 5.5% Wesleyan

By the numbers:

**Undergrad enrollment:** 1491 Swarthmore 2817 Wesleyan

**Diversity:**


Swat      Wes<br>
 8%          7%        African American
17%       11%        Asian American
10%         8%        Latino/a
 7%          6%        International
**56%       68%        White**

</p>

<p>Per student endowment
$985,795 Swarthmore
$220,600 Wesleyan</p>

<p>Per student endowment spending
$35,284 Swarthmore
$10,200 Wesleyan</p>

<p>Total spending per student (not inc fin. aid)
$78,427 Swarthmore
$52,545 Wesleyan</p>

<p>Avg total paid per student inc room/board
$30,417 Swarthmore
$30,426 Wesleyan</p>

<p>Note: virtually all of Swarthmore's students live on campus. Wesleyan's number includes freebie tuition for grad students. The average undergrad at Wes pays more than the average Swarthmore student.</p>

<p>Average financial aid (for all students)
$12,838 Swarthmore
$11,381 Wesleyan</p>

<p>note: Swat has gone no loan for 2008, which will increase this number by about $4,000 for each aided student or by $2,000 averaged across the entire student body as this number is.</p>

<p>Fall 2007 acceptance rates:
17.7% Swarthmore
27.4% Wesleyan</p>

<p>Fall 2007 SATs:
1360-1540 Swarthmore
1300-1490 Wesleyan</p>

<p>Classes under 20:
73.8% Swarthmore
63.2% Wesleyan</p>

<p>% of grads getting PhDs
20.5% (3rd in the USA) Swarthmore
11.3% (20th in the US) Wesleyan</p>

4

<p>interesteddad, what's your point?</p>

5

<p>What do you mean? The "point" is simply posting some of the key statistical differences between Swarthmore and Wesleyan. These are some of the statistical indicators I would look to for comparing any colleges. The diversity and financial comparisons are particularly valuable, IMO.</p>

<p>PS: Sorry for the duplicates. I messed up a cut n' paste. Unfortunately, the forum database errors made it impossible to fix the post.</p>

6

<p>My D is having the same dilemma. For better or worse the overnight to Swarthmore left her with the impression the school boasts heavy drinking as its weekend evening activity, an activity that she is not real interested in. At the visit at Wes, she seemed to do other things and had more fun. Is Swat is a drinkers haven!!?? </p>

<p>Also, I think she did not feel an LGBT friendliness at Swat but did at Wes and that made her more comfortable. Again, is Swat really LGBT unfriendly? Are D's impression right? we would hate for her to miss the wonderful opportunities at Swat b/c she has the wrong impression of the school. She is a smart recruited athlete. </p>

<p>Help</p>

7

<p>Rusha (love your name by the way),</p>

<p>Yikes! Your D definitely didn't luck out on hosts!</p>

<p>Swarthmore is most definitely queer-friendly; I haven't talked to anyone who feels otherwise. There is a lot of awareness-raising on campus (including Coming Out Week and the Sager Symposium, an annual conference on queer/trans issues) and the culture is just generally very accepting, as far as I can tell. </p>

<p>In terms of drinking--for some people, yes, that's the way they like to spend the weekend. They can, and they do. However, I'm not a partier, and I was able to find other people and other weekend activities without much trouble at all. Starting partway through last year, an anonymous donor gave a significant amount of money for dry social life. This translates into twice-weekly (Thurs. and Sat. nights) "Parlor Parties"--dry parties with music, food and games, as an alternative to Pub Nite, Paces and Olde Club. </p>

<p>Some of the athletic teams are really into drinking--so perhaps if your daughter stayed with an athlete she would have been more likely to get that impression--but there are many Swarthmore students (including some athletes) who don't drink, and they do just fine socially. </p>

<p>Good luck, and feel free to ask if you have any more questions!</p>

<p>To the OP:</p>

<p>They're both great schools! I have only secondhand information about Wesleyan, but from what I understand it's bigger than Swarthmore (which means a bit more course selection and variety in extracurriculars, but less tiny-community feel and maybe bigger classes), a bit "crunchier" (ie more hippie types--Swat has some, not tons) and more laid-back academically. That's not to say Wes kids aren't ridiculously smart--but Swarthmore academics are really intense. That can be rewarding, or frustrating, depending on who you are (I'll trust that if you were considering applying ED to Swat, you know that and have thought about it already). </p>

<p>I mean, that's all just stereotypes. But there's usually a grain of truth in there somewhere, right?</p>

8

<p>drink or not drink, it's up to you and NOBODY cares</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
Is Swat is a drinkers haven!!??

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Good lord, no. It has one of the lower binge drinking rates of elite colleges. About a third of the college doesn't drink at all and another third drinks occasionally. Booze is served at all-campus parties on weekends. However, there is also social event programing every weekend with no alcohol. There's a special endowment fund to pay for non-alchohol social events. Did your daughter go to the Parrish Parlor parties on Thursday or Saturday nights?</p>

<p>From this parent's perspective, it's the best scenario. Very low binge drinking rate. Two thirds of the students are non-drinkers or light/moderate drinkers. An average of only 0 to 3 alcohol transports a year (incredibly low). Yet, alcohol is freely available at parties on campus so students don't have to pregame.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Again, is Swat really LGBT unfriendly?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Are you sure she visited Swarthmore and not Skidmore? <grin> Swarthmore is one of the most gay friendly colleges you'll find, in fact, it's kind of a standing joke about rejecting "hetereonormative constructs" and so forth. </grin></p>

<p>It was one of the first colleges to offer insurance and benefits to same-sex couples -- back in 1992. They even have a gay assistant dean to represent the interests of the gay students.</p>

<p>Here's an example of the role gay students play. In the search for a new Dean a few years back, the students derailed one of the leading candidates because he talked about his belief in accepting alternative lifestyles. The gay students at Swarthmore objected to his characterization of "alternative". Both gay and straight students voiced their concerns to the search committee and the search committee responded to the concerns. My daughter lives with a gay Swattie alum who was Class President of the senior class last year. He loved Swarthmore. I honestly can't think of a more welcoming friendly place for gay students. Swarthmore has even had a transgendered professor, with a student art gallery named after him.</p>

10

<p>Swat is definitely really queer friendly (queer is the generally used word at Swat, as an umbrella for LGBTQQIAetc)! While there is no "gay assistant dean" specifically there for queer students (if only!), we are definitely fighting for one, and there are plenty of queer deans, as well as faculty and staff members - and we do have Deans for Multicultural Affairs and Gender Education. This doesn't mean that there isn't administrative support of the queer community, because it's definitely there!</p>

<p>Other key queer-friendly features about Swat include: its large amount of gender-neutral housing and gender-neutral bathrooms around campus and in dorms, being one of the first schools in the nation to allow gender-neutral housing by room; its many closed student groups for queer people, including SQU (Swarthmore Queer Union), COLORS (group for queer people of color), NOTA (none of the above, for people who identify as non-gay and non-straight), Small Group (for questioning students), PersuAsian (for Asian queer-identified students), and open groups like QSA (queer-straight alliance) - feel free to mail me for more info on groups; and its large amount of events focused on queer issues, from the aforementioned Sager Symposium and Coming Out Week to smaller events like speakers and movies. </p>

<p>Homophobic incidents happen, like they would anywhere, but they're rare, and people usually get really upset about them. I chose Swarthmore in large part because of it's queer-friendliness: it's hard not to see it!</p>

11

<p>rusha, there are a couple of teams - not the majority - who feel it's necessary to represent the work hard, play hard ethic, especially if they're off season or if they've just won a big game. I want to underline what other posters have said: There are plenty of other things going on around campus, and plenty of athletes who drink in moderation or not at all. </p>

<p>BTW interesteddad,
[quote]
Swarthmore has even had a transgendered professor, with a student art gallery named after him.

[/quote]
You meant "her," not "him."</p>

12

<p>The "Drinking aspect" of Swarthmore really interests me. S2 has done a number of overnights at colleges and is dismayed by the amount of drinking at every campus but Swarthmore. It was one of the only over nights not to offer alchohol to him or take him to a drinking party. He has expressed to me that he does not want to go to a "party school". It sounds as though Swarthmore has really taken it seriously that there are things to do there other than drink. Is this really the case?</p>

13

<p>(Hi! Swatmom's daughter posting.)</p>

<p>There are tons of other things to do if you aren't a partier. I'm definitely not a partier, and I've found ways to have fun every weekend, whether it's just dancing it up at the parties sans drinking, chilling at a Parlor party, or watching a cheesy musical with my hallmates back at my dorm. I haven't been pressured into drinking at all, either. It's a really relaxed environment; people manage to have fun in whatever fashion they choose. So, jollymon, I'd agree that Swat definitely believes in other ways to have fun. (On the other hand, they're relaxed about drinking, as well- they realize that some students are going to drink, and they put their faith in the students' responsibility to keep things safe.)</p>

14

<p>jollymon, here's my take on the drinking aspect at Swarthmore:
People here do drink. People everywhere drink. Now, the question is how many people drink? I don't have any statistics to back me up, but based on my experience at Swarthmore so far, it seems like over half of the student body here drinks. I mean, pretty much everybody in my floor of my dorm drinks and have gotten drunk at parties. Jollymon, you mentioned that Swarthmore didn't offer alcohol to him at an overnight stay. To be honest, the idea of offering a visiting student alcohol at a party is kind of strange--also, if your son went to Discovery Weekend, note that during Discovery Weekend there are fewer parties than usual because of DW. To be frank, a lot of my friends drink, and when they party they can get really drunk, especially my friends in the rugby team.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I don't drink, and I'm not pressured to drink. People who drink here know that some people aren't comfortable with alcohol, and they acknowledge that. And there are always social events going on that don't involve alcohol, so there really isn't a problem, but your son has to be somewhat comfortable with people in his dorm drinking and knowing that some (perhaps many) of his friends drink. That's part of college, not necessarily Swarthmore. I don't think that a higher proportion of students at Swarthmore drink compared to other colleges in general.</p>

<p>Is Swarthmore a party school? NO. But that does not mean that people don't party. Frankly, if people wanted to go to a party school, they would never have applied to Swarthmore in the first place. But it is certainly possible to get really drunk on the weekends but still be an active participant in class and have good grades. </p>

<p>You mention that it seems like Swarthmore has taken it seriously that there are other things to do besides drinking. Well, that stems from the fact that there are people at Swarthmore who don't drink but still want to do things over the weekend. But overall, there usually won't be a ton of activities over the weekend. It's pretty laid back.</p>

15

<p>Ok to clarify a couple things. I don't think he was offered any drinks while staying over, it was that he was brought to parties where there was drinking. I know there will be drinking at colleges and frankly I enjoyed the parties at college. It is just that S2 is a little more serious that I ever was and is not looking at a huge party school. Do I expect him to have a few beers while he is at college? Of course. But he is the one driving this "I don't want to go to a party school" college search. I just got the feeling that he was very comfortable while at Swarthmore and told me the kids there are very much like him. Who knows at this point, but he just keeps comparing all the colleges on his list to Swarthmore. I think that is not only a good thing, but also shows me he has a good head on his shoulders.</p>

16

<p>Drinking at Swarthmore mirrors real life in that drinking helps some of us cope with the stress of the week. To be brutally honest, I believe that the ones who need a drink the most are the ones that don't. All of the worrywarts who "don't want to attend a party school" should investigate an education at their local monastery.</p>

17

<p>This comment is not specific to Swarthmore or Wesleyan which are both schools I really respect.</p>

<p>I think kids have different destinies and this is reflected in differing experiences at the same school. They just sense where they're supposed to be.</p>

<p>One kid feels kids are too preppy at school X, far preppier than at school Y. Another kid has the opposite impression.</p>

<p>They can't always put into words what they do and don't like about a school. I am sure Swat does have less of a drinking culture than most, but something else in the environment might have disturbed the student who objected to the drinking.</p>

18

<p>Wow Duhvinci, great attitiude there. I guess I should apologize for raising a young man who is an elite athlete, has a 4.0 GPA, top S.A.T. scores and is not interested in the drinking or drug scene and is looking for a college that is not a party fest. I am trying to figure out why that is a bad thing, because I don't feel it is. At this point in his life, he is looking for a great academic college and a good fit basketball wise. To say that he should go to a monastery because he doesn't drink at 17 years old is ridiculous.</p>

19

<p>You all need to think about Post #6 a bit more. Clearly some posters "swallowed the bait". Booksmart, yes. Commonsense smart? Sometimes we are all too eager to help. Hats off to Post #6 for outsmarting the intelligentsia!
P.S. Had post #6 written the same info. offered in response to the post, he would have been flamed. (And yes, I'm aware of the pun.)
P.P.S. About twenty years ago I attended a continuing legal education seminar that taught Post #6's technique as a highly effective negotiating strategy; essentially, play dumb, act disorganized & give false/incorrect info. & watch as the other side rushes in to "help" (at their own expense, of course).</p>

20

<p>[block]To be honest, the idea of offering a visiting student alcohol at a party is kind of strange

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Don't kid yourself. My alma mater has had two different visiting high school sports recruits hospitalized with very serious alcohol poisoning in the last five or six years. I'm talking call the parents because they don't know of the kid's going to pull through. Unconscious, Lethal .40 BAC. One was in a coma for a day or so if I recall the news reports. Found outside on the entry steps of a freshman dorm. The other was also a similarly high BAC. Parents had to be called to come pick him up the next day when he was released from the hospital. At the time, regular visiting students had to sign a rules form specifying no drinking, but sports recruits went through different channels and did not. If I recall, Swarthmore makes all visiting prosects sign a rules form specifying no drinking and that violations would jeopardize admission.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I don't think that a higher proportion of students at Swarthmore drink compared to other colleges in general.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The colleges all participate in surveys and know their drinking and binge drinking rates versus national averages and peer groups like COFHE. Swarthmore is at the low end of that scale, below national averages. The women's colleges are low. Pomona is low. Some of the elite schools have historically been very high including Penn, Dartmouth, and some of the very-highly ranked LACs.</p>

<p>Jollymon:</p>

<p>One thing I've noticed is that Swarthmore is pretty conscientious about making events for visiting high school students and freshman orientation dry. And, the older students seem to honor the rules. I suspect this includes the sports teams. The lacrosse team broke the dry freshman orientation rule about five years ago and got sanctions and a feature news article in the paper for their troubles, and it didn't even involve freshmen drinking. I know that when my upperclass daughter and her friends returned to school in the fall and wanted to have a party with alcohol, they had it in one of the "off-campus" dorms with no freshmen so they wouldn't be running afoul of the dry orientation weekend rules.</p>

<p>BTW, the dry party funding stepped up this year. Some parent gave the school a chunk of money for the express purpose of funding alcohol-free weekend social events. That was the impetus for the new "Parish Parlors" parties.</p>

<p>The diversity stats I posted in another thread are a big reason for the low binge drinking rate at Swarthmore. Latino/a, Asian American, and African American students binge drink (4 or 5 drinks on one occasion) at rates as low as half that of white students. So having 45% non-white students has a signficant impact on the drinking scene. The various diversity affinity groups have always sponsored some alcohol-free social events. Swarthmore's location also helps. City schools tend to have less drinking than rural schools.</p>

<p>Harriet Welch: </p>

<p>thanks for the correction on the Kitao gender. I honestly didn't know which direction the journey had gone. Everything written about Prof. Kitao was scrupulously gender-neutral. Of course, I'd have probably gotten it mixed up even if I had known.</p>