"Twenty colleges are too many to apply to"

Parents Forum
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<p>This topic is also being discussed in the "would you restrict your child from going to a school because of distance" thread in this forum. IMO, if you can't narrow your list down to about 10ish well thought-out schools, you haven't done your HW in "College App. 101". Sending out 15-20 is absurd (not withstanding the ease of applying to all the UC schools with one mouse click). The only ones who win in this nonsense are CollegeBoard and ACT,who make a fortune sending out scores (and that thought ruins my appetite).</p>

<p>BTW, Epiphany, I thought your post was funny. Well... is that addict.... YOUUUUU????????</p>

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<p>
[quote]
IMO, if you can't narrow your list down to about 10ish well thought-out schools, you haven't done your HW in "College App. 101". Sending out 15-20 is absurd

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So, with WashDadJr at 13, we must be semi-absurd?</p>

<p>His list contained:</p>

<p>Three reach dream schools
Two in-state publics
Two private safeties with high chance of scholarships
Three private reaches, with great academic fit
Three out-of-state publics with very high chance of scholarships, and good academic fit</p>

<p>As of today he's heard from:</p>

<p>Rejected by one dream school
Accepted by one in-state public
Accepted by both private safeties, with 25% and 50% scholarships
Rejected by one private reach
Accepted by two out-of-state publics, with a 65% and 75% scholarships</p>

<p>I would probably have eliminated the three dream schools, but even I can be tempted to buy a lottery ticket once in a while. As a total, 13 still sounds high, but there were good reasons for every school and I'm still happy with how Jr's applications are coming in.</p>

<p>He also mixed two ROTC scholarship applications in here. One of his private safeties is an AFROTC school where he would be on a total free-ride (tuition, fees, room and board) by combining school scholarships with AFROTC. One of his dream schools would probably take an ROTC scholarship to attend, as well as the private reaches. It was part of the application planning process.</p>

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<p>Washdad-
So which half is he-- the "abs" or the "urd"? So far he's juggling 5 acceptances and he's only about 1/2 way there (six still to hear from, right?). I understand when you want to/need to play the scholarship game you might put in an extra app or two, but if he really had to, could he have eliminated one each from the private safety, in state public and in state publics, without even risking any of his 6 reaches? Or could he have just applied to 4 or 5 reaches, and, as you said, forego one or more of the dream schools? Does he really love them all equally? That would give him about 9-10 good options. Is the 10% difference in out of state public $ really going to push you to one or the other of those schools? </p>

<p>I was having a tought time makeing a decision recently, with several very different options available to me. I finally looked at it in reverse-- if one of the options were to slip away, which would I be most upset about? that helped me put my priorites in perspective. What might your son eliminate if he used this strategy?</p>

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<p>Jym, it is NOT absurd when money is a huge factor. </p>

<p>I think that those who can afford to pay private tuitions fail to appreciate that for those who cannot, college selection is a two-step process: First, the kid has to get into the college; then the kid needs to choose based largely on financial aid offers. If you don't have at least 3 offers from roughly equivalent schools, you don't even have the information needed to know a good offer from a bad one -- especially on the first time around. A spread of 5 offers is nice -- easy to identify the outliers, and negotiating room around the middle. </p>

<p>There are kids who are so amazing that they will win full tuition merit scholarships to colleges like NYU or Univ. of Chicago -- but most of us don't have kids like that. For us, it's more of a gamble -- and so when the kid is aiming high and money is a huge factor, multiple applications can be pretty important. </p>

<p>I really think it is in individual thing. I think students should do their research, and I do think that many students hurt themselves by applying to too many schools without much thought. I am especially suspicious when the kid applies to the exact same 10 colleges that are ranked 1-10 on the US News list. Applying to more super-reaches really doesn't increase one's chance of admissions. The multiple-school, let's hunt for money strategy is best served when most of the colleges are matches or matchy-reaches -- places where there is a reasonably good chance of getting accepted, but the money question is more of an unknown. (Safeties can generally be counted on to be more generous with merit aid -- and in-state public safeties of course are available at in-state rates).</p>

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<p>If it feels good, do it.</p>

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<p>calmom-
You are arguing both sides of your argument. I am familiar with the scholarship strategy, but if you do your HW correctly, you do not have to apply to 15+ "equal" schools (if there is such a thing) to come away with 3-5 relativley comparable, good offers. If money is really the major focus, then yes, you aim more towards the safeties for the bucks. If you are unlikely to get into, let alone get $$ from a reach school, why would you put too many of these on your list? To me it is worse to get into a school you can't afford (even if you try to negotiate based on other offers) than to be rejected. Now yes, we know things can come through , like your Barnard situation, but it doesnt still doesnt take applying to 15 or so schools to get such a fortuitous result. I agree with you-- throwing too many things at the wall to see what sticks is a bad strategy whe it comes to the college app. process.</p>

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<p>You miss my point -- I didn't say that the kid should "aim more toward the safeties" -- I said that for a kid who wants money but has high aspirations, the goal has to be a the reachy-matches (or matchy-reaches?). I am defining that as a college where admission is realistically possible, even if not all that likely. The safeties are just that: safe. But a kid looking for academic challenge, or one like my daughter who simply wanted some sort of academic focus that most colleges down the ranks of the selectivity ladder don't offer -- may have to put out more in order to end up with acceptable alternatives in the end. </p>

<p>My son originally applied to 6 almost interchangeable LACs, in terms of size and campus culture. 5 accepted him; 2 put forth financial aid offers that were workable, but very different (one weighted more towards loans, but with significantly less out of pocket cost) -- one other offer would have been workable, and the remaining two offers were untenable. One of the best offers came from the college that we least expected to be affordable; the worst offer came from my son's top choice. </p>

<p>My daughter applied to one impossible reach (Brown), and I knew it was impossible, but she got a fee waiver -- so who am I to stop her? The other reaches all accepted her -- but again, the money was variable. In hindsight I just think placing limits would have worked against us. My kid applied to 10 colleges -- 1 was a mistake financially, and 1 was that hail-Mary pass at an Ivy that kids tend to want to make -- and the other 10 were all reasonable options to include. If she had thrown in 2 or 4 or 8 more along those lines.... I guess she would have had more options in the end. She was the one doing the work of the apps, not me. </p>

<p>I'm just glad that my kids got good offers from their 2nd choice colleges, even if their 1st choices let them down. It means I only had to say no once to each kid. </p>

<p>If WashDad's son wants 13 schools, spread among safeties & reaches, publics & privates -- I don't see a problem with that. </p>

<p>You might also consider the fact that with my daughter, there was a very lopsided candidate. Big strengths, huge weaknesses. As it is, results were somewhat paradoxical -- the reachier colleges seemed more focused on the strengths, the matchier colleges less willing to forgive the weaknesses. It's not all that easy to draw up a list with a kid like that to easily predict either chances of admission or likelihood of attracting merit money. </p>

<p>So again.. I just don't think there's a hard and fast rule. My daughter was admitted to 9 out of 12 colleges- but if I had come to CC, posted stats, and asked the collective wisdom on where she would be admitted -- I'll bet the vote would have been for 5 out of 12 (with one being that "safety" we could never afford). There is no guarantee that WashDad's son will have "9-10 good options" when he applies to 13 schools, including 6 reaches. And the 2 safeties that my daughter had that were also assured to be affordable were colleges that she never would have included on her list but for my insistence -- she didn't want to go to either, but understood that is what her option would be if money didn't come through on the others. (Sorry to everyone who focuses so much about "fit".... but sometimes the bottom line is money.) And its easy to be optimistic about chances in hindsight after the kid has been accepted everywhere, but you don't know that until after the decisions are in.</p>

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<p>Many parents I know have trouble getting their kids to get 4 or fewer apps out. Actually many have trouble getting their kids to get 1 app done. But because of the ease of using some of the on line apps that do not even have a fee, it is understandable that kids in general are applying to more schools. Some of the on-line apps do not even require teachers' recs. You just ask the school to send a transcript.</p>

<p>Many public schools we know limit the number of apps to 6-8. I do not feel this is appropriate as there are situations that call for more. Hopefully, they give exception for valid reasons. There really is not much more trouble to send 30 recs and transcript as it is to send 6. The days of the hand typed recs and filled in sheets are pretty much over. Most schools, teachers and counselors alike, send one descriptive page that covers generic questions about an applicant, save that page, and make as many copies as needed. The applicant provides the stamped, addressed envelope, and voila.. all that needs to be done is to fold the copy of the rec sheet, seal and drop off to mail. The pain in the neck comes if the applicant does not give his envelopes in one fell swoop, but keeps coming back for more, something I do not advise doing very many times. </p>

<p>There are a number of situations where many apps are wise. Heavy financial need is one. Particularly with a large EFC that precludes much true aid, with the merit money being the goal. Someone who really wants a selective college has become a common heavy applier. Those with audition type schools or really any highly selective programs are wise to have more than the usual batch of apps. Breaking them down into two time deadlines may be wise, as a bad return on the early ones is a good reason to submit more apps. If you have so many that you do feel uncomfortable or the teacher is getting snappish, it may be wise to get a couple more recommenders. Not much you can do about the school rec. But I think asking for two batches of ten, on batch earlier and then later, makes it look a bit less excessive than coming in with 20 apps.</p>

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<p>Just as an aside, the total apps per student have gone down at my sons' schools despite these online quickie-freebies. So many kids apply early now, and if they get into a first choice school, that is it for them. End of the process. That balances out the few 20 app wonders.</p>

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<p>All of the above is very true for my daughter's situation. She is passionate about music and very successfull in academics, so she thinks about double-majoring in music and something academic at some good university. She is nerdy overachiever ;-), so she, probably, would be happier in academically challenging, intellectual environment ... therefore it might be very important for her to get to some really selective place. And, we are one-incom family from Sillicon Valley, so our EFC, most probably, will be unfavorable for us, as well as our ability to pay the sticker price, without any merit money.</p>

<p>I already dreadfully anticipate next year's application process ... hopefully, it wouldn't be MORE than 20 apps.</p>

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<p>myau, your daughter sounds like my son, currently a college freshman. We are also from SV. He applied to colleges where he could double major in music and geophysics. He applied to 15 schools last year, accepted at 12[ including 2 Ivy's], WL at 2, rejected at 1. Currently attending USC on Trustees scholarship. Pm me if you would like advice . Be happy to help guide you.</p>

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<p>Thanks, menloparkmom. I will. :-)</p>

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<p>Originaloog and others, how do GCs restrict the number of applications any given students sends? Is there an actual limit of applications a counselor will send? NOt sure how this kind of restriction is legal. If a student wants to apply to 20 schools--although I can't imagine doing that--why isn't that decision left up to the student and his/her family? I thought with the advent of online application, the counselors had far less control (and work). </p>

<p>Thought when taking advantage of online applications, all GCs have to do is copy recommendations and forward transcripts--all done by clerical staff at most schools. Guess the GC has to review the packet before mailing, but most of the work is done by the staff, I would think.</p>

<p>I'm curious to know how this works. Thanks.</p>

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<p>calmom-
I didn't miss your point at all--no-- you didnt say it- I am the one saying if you really want to go for the $$ then you should aim more towards the safeties or matches to get it. So if "fit" isnt the best reason for your kid to apply to a school, thats fine. But then don't send out apps to, say, 5 reach schools (making this # up-- don't tell me I am citing the wrong #). Why waste the school's and your time. Sure, there is always a "chance" a school could come through with $, but its just, IMO, selfish to apply to, say 15 or more schools just to see if you'll hit pay dirt with one. Wastes the HS time sending out materials and wastes the colleges time reviewing the apps (and yes, I know that the bigger State schools do it by the #s and dont necessarily individually review each app. ) While I initially thought that our HS 's rule of 6 (8 max before they charge) was harsh, it is doable, and reasonable. If it is about "fit", it is hard to imagine that there are 15 or more schools that are great fits for my s. If its about the $$, then pick 8 schools and go for it. Why does a student need to be holding 6-7 acceptances?? Its silly to me. When I was in HS, I applied to 4 schools, got into 3 and was waitlisted at one. Even with 3 acceptances I had a tough time choosing.</p>

<p>Cptofthehouse. If you have a small, overburdened counseling office in a HS of, say 300 graduating seniors.. if each decided to apply to 15 colleges, thats 4500 reccs to organize, print and get out in the mail. Even if it takes only a minute per recc, thats 75 hours of work! Ditto for the transcripts, etc. This is no easy task. That said, I don't have as much of a problem throwing out an extra one or 2 of the "apply on line- no essay-no recc. needed" applications. I might even encourage my s to do it with one particular school if they offer him one of these streamlined online apps. Hopefully our HS will send out the transcript in a timely fashion. But if not, well, I know their rules.</p>

<p>Bottom line.. I am just one of the folks who feels that this application frenzy has gotten way, way out of hand. We shouldn't complain about it if we are part of the problem. Just my opinion. Unfortunately, at this point, with the competition so fierce, many people will feel they "have" to buy into this silliness or they will be at the short end of the stick. All I can say is that our HS rule, as tight as it is, hasnt kept kids from getting good scholarship $$ and into good schools.</p>

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<p>panhandlegal-
Not sure if this is an issue of what is "legal", but what is "reasonable" to expect from the clerical staff of a college counseling office. Don't forget that the kids are also probably applying for outside scholarships that need reccs and transcripts sent as well. Add to it the other day-to-day responsibilites of any clerical staff person, answering the phone, emails, dealing with the students who come by to address various and sundry aspects of their college app proces, the juniors and their parents who begin to call with questions while the seniors are still getting their apps out.. its a LOT of work. I feel for these people. </p>

<p>My HS is a private HS, not a public one, so they can do what they want. We have to live by their policy. I was aghast at first, but now I get it. By the way, I don't know if I can find the statistic, but I believe the average # of apps that students send out is only like 2 or 3. I believe Carolyn posted that at one time. My older s applied to 2. Thats it 2. Got into both. If he hadn't, he had 2 more he was going to apply to.</p>

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<p>btw calmom- you misread my post #23 about washdads son. What I was trying to say is that he could whittle his initial app. list down to 9-10 good options (meaning 9-10 schools to apply to, not 9-10 schools he would have acceptances to). That said, he's already sitting on 5 acceptances, and will, hopefully, get a few more. </p>

<p>Maybe its a whole societal shift-- we are getting used to having too many choices in life. The supermarkets are full of rows of cereal boxes and coffee flavors. But if we go to the small shops in Europe and they have a few selections. Its still easy to make a good choice from fewer selections.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I am the one saying if you really want to go for the $$ then you should aim more towards the safeties or matches to get it.

[/quote]
That's not how it works with need-based aid. The well-funded, more prestigious colleges generally give better financial aid than the less selective colleges. Merit aid may or may not be available at less selective colleges, but often to get big bucks in terms of merit aid, an ambitious student needs to make some major concessions in terms of the overall level of academic challenge at the school.</p>

<p>If the school is one that guarantees to meet full need, or generally meets need of most of its student, then getting in usually is assurance that there will be some award -- but the need based awards are highly variable, which is why comparison is needed. My own situation is complicated by the fact that I'm self employed, divorced, and the ex is also self-employed -- plus I own a home in California. So there is a lot of room for colleges to manipulate the figures when it comes to figuring out how much I should pay on my ~$50K annual income.</p>

<p>Truthfully, looking at the numbers, it probably would have been best for my kids to apply to more schools than they did -- but my daughter only wanted an urban campus. I wanted her to apply to more womens' colleges (Smith, Mt. Holyoke, Wellesley Bryn Mawr ) -- I figured she'd get in and they all were likely to give good aid. Not necessarily better than Barnard -- but Barnard was a huge reach. Yes, in hindsight it looks like a safety, but I'm talking about what it looked in October of her senior year. Most of the womens' colleges offered free online apps -- so no $ to apply -- and they really looked like her best bets for admission.</p>

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<p>jym626: another factor is that college guidance at private schools may be totally different than at publics. At many privates (perhaps not yours, I don't know), the counselors have close relationships with some admissions officers (see The Gatekeepers). The GCs knows they can get Kid A into Dartmouth and Wesleyan, and Kid B into Tufts and Georgetown, and thus discourage them from applying to many schools. They may have a much better handle on who is likely to get in where than at a public school.</p>

<p>Personally, I think 10-12 schools should do the job; a kid who doesn't need financial aid and isn't wedded to USNWR top 10 could do fewer. What we see a lot of on CC are kids who apply to all the Ivies and then a bunch of other top schools, plus some matches and safeties. And what I saw at my daughter's HS were a lot of students who didn't start the college process until really late, didn't visit a lot of schools, and so applied to 12 or so because they hadn't a clue. (and then there are some kids on CC who, when citing where applying, confess they don't remember all the schools they checked off on the common ap)</p>

<p>When I was a senior, we were limited to 5 applications. My parents insisted I apply to both a SUNY and a CUNY (state and NYC publics), which left me with 3 privates. We were allowed to add one additional school after Jan. 1. I hated it.</p>

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<p>Calmom-
I agree that the calculations are sticky for need-based aid, and there is a lot of opportunuty to play with numbers on the side of the schools. I understand your situation completely, as I too am self employed, but I imagine that, like you, what comes in as revenue vs. what our "salary" is differ. It is not cheap to run a professional business. That said, we have better control over how our revenue is spent. But I digress...</p>

<p>It is reasonalbe to apply to in-state schools where the cost is manageable, and to some match schools that will want your student. I know your dau has strengths and weaknesses, but she was still attractive to many schools and I made the assumption that she would get some merit $. All that aside, I still think you can get good need-based offers from good schools without having to apply to 15-20 schools. I think you can decided if $1000-2000 will make enough of a difference to sway you to select one school over another, to help pare down the list. While you can't know exactly how much aid you'll get, you know what you can afford. I don't care if the chevy dealership offers me a great deal on a winstar van. Doesn't matter how much they offer- I am still not going to buy it. Again, just my opinion.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
If you have a small, overburdened counseling office in a HS of, say 300 graduating seniors.. if each decided to apply to 15 colleges, thats 4500 reccs to organize, print and get out in the mail

[/quote]
A public high school is a different world. My daughter's graduating class had 165 students; I doubt that any more than 30 of them applied to any colleges other than the UC's & CSU's. In any case, the UC application system doesn't entail much paperwork for the g.c. - since no transcript is sent until after acceptance & graduation,and no rec letters are required or accepted. Maybe a dozen kids at most would have been applying to highly selective/competitive schools. </p>

<p>Even with that, my daughter did most of the paperwork involved with mailing the apps -- she was required to provide the g.c. with pre-addressed, pre-stamped envelopes and the forms with the demographic info pre-filled. Of course there still is some work required... but that is what the g.c. is paid to do. At her school there was a college counselor who had no duties outside of college advising -- so it wasn't unreasonable to expect him to do his job. (which he did quite well, in my opinion).</p>