"Twenty colleges are too many to apply to"

Parents Forum
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<p>If your family demonstrates some financial need, it is possible to get more than what your actual need from some of the reach schools with generous endowments and merit within need. If your family has a low EFC, the more selective 100% of need provided schools are a good bet for your best packages. In either of those cases, you should have safety backups as well. That translates into more apps. And you may hit the pay dirt on only one or two. A highschool that limits your kid to 6 schools really drops the chances for these kids.</p>

<p>Realistically no highschool has all of their kids applying to 10 or more colleges. Those schools that have a lot of kids applying to the most selective schools generally have a lot of them going the early route which really reduces the number of apps. Otherwise it seems to me that most kids are applying to the state and local colleges and even 4 is a lot, for them. In our area, some of the local colleges have a day where a kid can bring transcript and test score sheet and get accepted on the spot. As I said in an earlier post, the two schools here where my kids have gone have said that though there are more kids applying to more schools, because of the early programs, the total number of apps have not increased. Having assisted with stuffing and checking envelopes, it is not that time consuming to copy and stuff. And I am talking about a school with 700+ seniors and severely understaffed with the secretary for guidance becoming very ill midseason. If a school feels it has to limit the number of apps, I would hope that it would discuss the matter with the students and parents for exceptions though I would think that is more time consuming than just sending out the extra transcripts. The schools I have known want about a month's lead time to get the stuff out, and from all of the cards that are sent from admissions office with missing highschool documents, they tend to us that time span.<br>
As to barraging the colleges with the extra work, well, they have it coming to them with all of the junk they send to the students enticing them to apply. We already have a pretty good sized box of stuff from colleges, expensive color copy viewbooks, brochures, summer program offers, invitations, etc and my son is just a junior. They bring this on to themselves by the very system they have perpetrated.</p>

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<p>jym, we are not talking about another $1000 here and there. We are talking about $9-$12K differentials in the range of what college costs would be after application of full need based awards. My son had need-based grants from similarly priced colleges that ranged from $9000 to $21,000. My daughter was offered grants of about $18,000 from Fordham & Chicago, and ended up with more than $30K in grant money from Barnard. </p>

<p>There are other parents at CC who report similar ranges from 100% need colleges. It's not unusual -- quite frankly they can probably justify the disparity based on the way they treat home equity alone.</p>

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<p>Jym, fit can also mean more than "I like California more than Indiana, and won't go to a school that doesn't have competitive Pilates." </p>

<p>Jr. applied to both Arizona schools for their NMS scholarships. Applying to both was cheaper than flying there to visit. As it turns out, ASU offered a scholarship $7k per year more than UofA -- a far bigger deal than "$1-2k."</p>

<p>Jr. applied to a small liberal arts college with a 3-2 engineering program, frankly, because they made the application process so easy: no essay, no recommendations, no app fee. It was also very early in the process, and we hadn't narrowed down much yet. By December, he would not have bothered, since his educational goals were much more focused. He also applied to a smallish Catholic college with a fairly good-sized engineering school as the answer to the question, "Is there a smallish college with engineering in the Northwest that is faith-friendly?" So far, U of Portland remains a top choice due to a very favorable campus visit, and a nice scholarship offer.</p>

<p>He applied to Olin, MIT and Caltech because he LOVES the idea of going to one of these schools. Statistically, no one gets into Caltech or Olin, and almost no one gets into MIT. I was willing to support his dream, but we both know that he is at best a one-in-ten shot at MIT, and even less than that at Caltech and Olin.</p>

<p>He applied to UW and WASU because that's what kids in Washington do. It's like a good student from Long Beach applying to UCLA and UCI -- two good state schools, one slightly less selective than the other.</p>

<p>He applied to RPI and Rose-Hulmans because they were both good fits financially and academically (both have ROTC programs -- something he is considering).</p>

<p>He applied to New Mexico Tech because the son of a family friend went there and said he loved it, and that they were generous with scholarships. Frankly, their easy and inexpensive application process was also attractive. This was not a focus school originally, but, ironically, as he's learned more about the school from some other alums and info on the web, it keeps moving up on his list. When he applied, it was my idea, not his.</p>

<p>And he applied at the last minute to Case Western on the advice of someone we respect in the college advising business, and to WPI when they announced their new undergraduate program in Robotics. Since Jr's current career goals involve medical applications of robotic technology, WPI came from not-quite-on-the-list to near the top.</p>

<p>So. Each school made sense to us individually. I can see two or three that I would cut now, having learned more and more over the last five months, but it would only cut the list to 9-10. </p>

<p>If I had all the money in the world, Junior would probably only have applied to 5-6 schools, but since we have to worry about cost, it expanded our universe of applications. Until schools stop lying about admissions criteria ("We don't focus on grades or scores -- we look at the whole student"), and come clean on "scholarships" (aka, tuition discounts for targeted applicants), we are forced to apply to extra schools to increase the chance of getting into a good-enough college for the right price.</p>

<p>By the way, some people can't afford a Mercedes, no matter how much they want one. Sometimes, a Chevy is what a family can pay for. You did come off as sounding like something of an elitist in that comment above...</p>

<p>EDIT: The Windstar is made by Ford. Chevy's minivan is the Uplander.</p>

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<p>Cptofthehouse
[quote]
In our area, some of the local colleges have a day where a kid can bring transcript and test score sheet and get accepted on the spot.

[/quote]
Well that is seriously cool. Wish more places did that!
[quote]
As to barraging the colleges with the extra work, well, they have it coming to them with all of the junk they send to the students enticing them to apply.

[/quote]

Not so sure I agree with this one. Colleges are businesses, and they need to fill their spots. But just because they advertise doesn't mean you have to bite at every offer. Do you fill out every credit card application that arrives in our mailbox? You can chuck the undesirable college stuff as easily as the cr. card apps. My son holds onto college stuff that has a remote possibility of interest, and trashes the rest ( against my wishes, but I understand his reasoning).</p>

<p>sly-vt-
I WISH our colleges counselors had that kind of "pull". I don't really believe any counselor can guarantee that they can get any student into a particular school. Sure, they have relationships with schools and admissions officers (though that is a high turnover job),and personal phonecalls can help, but I don't think any guarantee can be made.</p>

<p>washdad-
Your sons strategies are not unreasonable. The kids who apply to 15-20 schools because of the name and with little regard to why they are applying are the ones that truly burden the system (the ones that apply to the ivys and the top 20 and then throw in a few state schools and a few safeties). There is some kid who just posted his "where are you applying" list, which has schools ranging from Yale to the U of Glascow (and a few others) in Ireland (with lots of schools in between). It is an unusual range of schools. I suspect this person is an international (also applying to schools in Canada) but it was just, literally, all over the map. The colleges that let you apply on line for free with no hassle aren't, in my mind, the issue. As I said above, throwing one or two out there is fine, if the student is really willing to go to the school. If they truly have no intention of going to the school, why bother. (That, by the way, was my intended analogy to the Chevy Winstar. It may be fine for someone else, just not for me, so why bother, no matter how enticing they make it for me. I prefer the Toyota Sienna, so I'll try for the best deal I can get on that car, not the Chevy. And if I cant afford a Mercedes, I won't look into buying one. Pure and simple. If my dream school doesn't guarantee to meet financial need and I cant afford to go there without enough need $$$, I would be less likely to apply, especially if it is a big reach. But, ya nevah know--so if I really want to try to see if I might get in and get enough money, then I might knock a different school off my list. ) </p>

<p>I am not faulting you for your list- it seems well reasoned and I appreciate your explaining how you arrived at each. In fact, I am interested to hear about U of A and ASU, as we might take our s out for a look-see (ass they say). My inlaws are in Tucson, so we can combine visits. I've also heard good things about ASU's honors program, but my s. is currently bucking honors programs and big schools. However, he may change his mind. That happens a lot, for sure. Does your s truly want to go to U of A or ASU, or (sorry this is going to sound blunt) did he apply to see what they'd offer him? I guess it comes back to "love thy safety" . My s will also, hopefully be a NMSF, and we will take these issues into consideration. I am bummed the U of F is giving less $$ to NMF's now, and while it was on my list for my s to consider, its dropped down because it is less attractive if the $$ is less. It was an enticement (and I am a legacy).</p>

<p>Calmom-
My example of a $1-2000 cost difference was my way of saying this could be a way to cut down a students list. If there are several less expensive schools that may offer money but might possibly onlyultimately cost a few K difference in the long run, then one an try to cull the list this way. Of course one cannot guarantee how much $ a school will offer (as washdad also said), but we also know this is negotiable with many of the schools. I think we are talking at times here about the mega-buck privates and at other times about the more affordable publics, which gets confusing. However,when the scholarship offers come in, it is not unusual for the bottom line dollar amount to differ in some cases by only a few thousand when you are applying to 15+ schools. That was my point, and it is one of the ways our school is having us look at our choices.</p>

<p>Enough for now-- must get some work done to pay those college tuitions.</p>

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<p>Calmom-
I forgot to mention- I am speaking from my experience with our local HS's. Very big senior class, and very acdemically competitive. Many, many ,many apply to colleges, and we aren't forunate to have the wonderful Calif state schools at our fingertips, so the range of schools and # of apps can be high, and burdensome for the counselors and admin. staff. Yes, of course it is their job, but it is far froman easy one.</p>

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<p>Agree completely with Calmom, as usual, about the need for more apps especially if financial aid/merit/highly selective meeting 100% need colleges is a big consideration. After 4 kiddos going through this process in the past 5 years I got to be pretty familiar with the LARGE discrepancies in aid packages, EVEN within the same famly, same school (merit fluctautes per individual). Translates into how much do they WANT your kiddo.</p>

<p>Again for our family it was the bottom line financially that ultimately made the decision. Even amongst the schools meeting 100% need there were $10,000 differences between the loans, work study, summer contribution, and grants/scholarships. And if there is only 1 acceptance without a peer school to compare to then there is no room for comparison.</p>

<p>Son last year had offers ranging from large gaps without meeting the EFC to 100% need met with no loans, no workstudy and from some schools where we did not think he would get in and no less with a fab package. He also received aid packages where his workstudy in order to max it out would have required 30+hours p/wk according to the school's FWS pay scale. Not to mention what some schools include in their COA is not included in others, ie. a laptop, travel based on distance, etc.</p>

<p>Again, there was so much disparity but we would not have known it as I am sure most applicants DO NOT. We discovered this through multiple applicants and multiple (numerous) applications and acceptances.</p>

<p>Akin to the car analogy, if you could buy a Bentley for the price of a Schwinn you would need to know that possibility exists. (Or insert whatever "dream" vehicle you desire).</p>

<p>Kat</p>

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<p>kat-
How many schools did your kids apply to? I fully agree that there are lots of variables, but you still have reasons to narrow your list down to the schools they ultimately applied to. There are over 3500 schools out there. No one applies to them all (though I'd be curious what might be the maximum # of schools some poor soul applied to).</p>

<p>And actually, no, I wouldnt buy a Bentley for the cost of a schwinn. I would assume there would be something wrong with it and it would be a bad investment in the long run.</p>

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<p>Well, that's where the analogy fails, because if Harvard decides to give students with family incomes under $60K a free ride, it doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with Harvard -- and it makes sense for a kid with an outside chance of getting in to apply there. </p>

<p>The problem with the financial aid thing is that there is no way of knowing what the aid will be or how it will compare with others until one hears back from financial aid. Thus there is no way to know, financially, which schools to cull from the list. My son's first and second choice colleges were highly similar LACs -- both offered only need-based aid; both statistically met full need of most students, but didn't absolutely guarantee it. The second choice college was more selective at the time -- it seemed from the stats that my son was likely to get into both, but far more likely to get into the first choice. Well - the first choice gave him NO grant aid at all -- they said they were sorry, they were out of money, and he could have a loan and nothing else, and they'd put him on a wait list for aid. The second choice college is the one that offered the $21K grant. If we had been culling, we would have kept #1 and perhaps discarded #2 -- which in hindsight obviously wouldn't have been a smart thing to do.</p>

<p>No one is talking about applying to 3500 schools, but the point is that 20 may or may not be too many, depending on the reason the kid happens to be applying to 20. If it is a C student trophy hunting by applying to every Ivy -- then its just silly - that student has no chance of getting in. But if it is the class valedictorian applying to 4 Ivies, some top 5 LACs, and then aiming for schools where full-ride merit aid is a possibility -- it starts to look more like a strategy that makes some sense, because even class valedictorians are not assured of admission at the top schools.... but it is understandable why they might want to attend. And those full-ride scholarships are often quite competitive -- no guarantee there, either. </p>

<p>One other factor is that kids do not necessarily apply to a homogenous group of colleges -- my daughter's college list was kind of eclectic. Partly this was because there was no way that her safeties would offer the strength in the departments she wanted -- it just doesn't happen. So if she didn't get into reach colleges, it would mean that she would need to consider a shift in focus... and so she had to look to schools that had something entirely different to appeal to her. </p>

<p>I think WashDad has done a pretty good job of describing how such a list might evolve. </p>

<p>I certainly wouldn't want to be the one who was managing 20 applications -- but the point is that some kids do have what they feel are valid reasons. And the colleges do often make it easy with expedited application processes. Plus, we started feeling kind of sorry for Tulane last year -- my daughter didn't apply -- but after they extended the deadline twice and were still sending daily emails begging for an application, I can see how some kids might just take pity on the school and send in the application. ;)</p>

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<p>roHarvard is a known entity, and their free ride financial offer is also a known entity. That isn't the issue.. nor a great analogy, IMO. My older s was offered many free rides from many schools, even ones offering him stipends to attend. If money was the driving factor in our decision, we would have explored some of them, but many were schools we didn't know anything about, and frankly didn't have a need or desire to pursue. I am sure they are fine institutions and would be a good opportunity for another student, but we had enough choices to consider, and since our HS would expect us to limit our apps, we didnt pursue them. I realize this is not the case for other people, I respect the needs of others, and I count my blessings. But by saying "no thanks" to those offers, that lets them send the net out elsewhere, and not waste their time on us. They have their spots to fill. For us, our limiting factor was more about the # of schools we could apply to, not the schools that would give us the most $, so we had to handle it differently. And like kawt, I've learned some from experience. We were fortunate to get NM money and s. won several private merit scholarships for his community service. He had a dream school and we let him apply ED. Younger s doesn't have a "dream school" (yet-- I'll let you know when we get back from spring break), so we probably wil use a different strategy and not apply ED anywhere. (Will apply EA, not scea, where available) to see what merit $ he might get.</p>

<p>And calmom, you did cull down your list by declining poor Tulane's repeated requests. That whas the right thing to do for you. FWIW, Tulane is one school that I might encourage s to do on line if/when he gets that "easy app, lots of money probably forthcoming" email. And this is one school we won't visit ahead of time. </p>

<p>Does one possibly miss an oppportunity by applying to only 10 schools instead of 11, sure. You just have to draw the line somewhere. If there is a compelling reason to apply to 9, 10, even 13, that is not my issue. It is the ridiculous "mega sweep, throw out 20 apps to the top schools plus 3 safeties and 5 schools just to be flattered by their offers of $" without doing your HW that is what is just absurd.</p>

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<p>My point is that people who need the money will apply to a number of schools which are equivalent in terms of attractiveness to that student, often basing the ultimate decision on money. Harvard is not a known entity, because no one <em>knows</em> whether they will be accepted.... and I'd be willing to bet that if my kid got into Harvard, my single-parent, self-employment income of under $50K probably wouldn't have qualified for their free ride. (My guess is that all bets are off with the filing of the noncustodial parent form, and the financial aid department probably goes right along adding numbers back from the schedule C just like other colleges do).</p>

<p>But I think ultimately we are in basic agreement. I see no value in applying to 20 colleges for trophy hunting -- and I have no problem with the idea of drawing a line somewhere -- it's just that each person's line might be different, for different reasons.</p>

<p>I mean, if I was rich or had a $200K college fund lying around, maybe it would have been nice if my daughter could simply have applied ED to Barnard last year and then have been done with the process -- but that wasn't an option.</p>

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<p>Calmom-
What I meant was that Harvard, the institution and its reputation, is a known entity (as opposed to a Podunk U in Nowheresville, Arkansas), and its policy about scholarship $ for families with incomes below 60K is also known (like Princeton's) so a big offer wouldn't be surprising if someone met the requirements. We were getting lots of unsolcited offers from places we knew little or nothing about. Thats what I meant.</p>

<p>Just curious-- how many schools did each of your kids apply to? I do think we are on the same page about this issue in general. Trophy hunting is a good term. What's the point, other than hubris, perhaps.</p>

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<p>I thought I'd already posted this, but I'll do it again - my daughter applied to 12 colleges; my son applied to 9. Each applied to 3 UC campuses, which is included in the overall number. That was the first time around for my son -- I don't know how many colleges he applied to when he was transferring.</p>

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<p>If someone wants to apply to all 3500 colleges, fine with me. There is a point of diminishing return when you apply to many colleges. Statistically, if you are truly a viable candidate at, say the top colleges, it does improve your chances to get into one by applying to more, rather than less, as long it does not strain you to the point of sending out weak apps, losing track of the process and not meeting deadlines, making more mistakes and having a strong senior year. This is a balancing act for which students/families need to master. Even the common app these days often require lots of supplements with short answers that require some thought. Also there are the interviews and visits. There is a price to pay when you apply to many colleges.</p>

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<p>cpt-
If someone at our school applied to 3500, at 50 bucks a pop over the max of 8, they'd be shelling out $174,600 to the teacher gift fund. I KNOW the teachers wouldnt mind that a bit. Are you sure you aren't a teacher at my s's school ? :)</p>

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<p>cpt... You don't even have a hint about the work involved in some applications unless you have a kid who applies to a conservatory or musical theater program or the absolute worse, one of those and a double degree program. My D had the selection process, campus tours, 15 applications along with the usual supplements, several interviews, audition prep, audition tapes, and 9 live auditions. Then there is the stress due to the uncertainty about audition outcomes and the extremely low acceptance rates for many programs.</p>

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<p>Edad, you are preaching to the choir. My son went through the MT auditions and is an Mt major. Went through all you described and more. Older son went through the uncertainty of athletic "recruiting" for a nonimpact sport. Both applied to more schools than I want to think about. But I am not the one to draw the line as to what the magic number is for the optimal outcome in college admissions. If someone truly want to apply to all 3500, they are certainly welcome to do so, as I said before. I am not going to fund the endeavor, nor will I take part in the process. I am not into setting records of any sort, and am not about to start with that one, though with my experience I have a pretty good head start. </p>

<p>Jym626, you're saying that your teachers wouldn't mind an additional 3492 apps at $50 a pop, but would oppose someone applying to, say 10 schools , at an additional $100? LOL Something not right there.</p>

<p>As I said before, there comes a point of diminishing returns when you apply to too many colleges. But that point is different from student to student. There are good reasons at times to apply to more than 4, 6, 8, 10 apps. Who is to put down the limit? For a school to do so is to disadvantage a student for whom more apps would be optimal for a number of reasons such as increasing chances of getting into highly selective schools, getting and comparing and negotiating merit/financial aid, getting onto an athletic team, getting into certain highly selective programs such as MT or double degree or conservatory. The limit is really what the student can handle. As Edad says, the preparation for an audition based program is terribly time consuming and expensive. Looks like his D applied to more than 8 schools. The process of college apps is self limiting in number because of the work it entails. But sure, if someone wanted to apply to all of the schools, does all of the work, and shells out the bucks for the fees and to the school to process the paperwork, that'll be fine. I have stuffed over 5000 evelopes in several days with various papers, and for $174,600, I would be very happy to it for someone. I did it for a big fat goose egg!</p>

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<p>Like most people, I imagine, I think that there has to be a limit, a breaking point, somewhere. Speaking as someone who filed nine whole (no special deal/invitiation/no new essay!) applications, I can't really imagine applying to the top 20 schools, as I have seen many kids claim that they will. I really have to wonder if they have any idea what those applications are like--no matter how well managed you are, those aren't schools that have applications that can be knocked out in an hour or so. I also don't understand people with extremely reach-heavy lists--again, those proverbial top 20 schools just couldn't possibly all appeal to one person. I can't imagine that finally getting into and attending your 18th choice reach school would make you happier than a good fit match school that wasn't <em>as</em> selective/prestigious. Of course, by definition, if you really want to attend a "reach", you have to apply to more than one (especially if they are very competitive--I applied to 4). But (I don't believe) it shouldn't be 9 reaches and 1 safety (that probably isn't a safety). </p>

<p>There's another aspect here, too: I'd be willing to bet that a decent amount of the 20+ apps people could not justify why they were applying to X college. What are they going to do when the application, or an interviewer asks "Why apply to (our college)", as they almost inevitably will? "Ummm...ummmm...it's #12 on the USNWR list?" isn't going to cut it...</p>

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<p>cptofthhhouse-
Sorry for the confusion-- this topic is being discussed simultaneously on 2 threads and I thought I'd explained this here-- but apparently it was on the other thread. Our kids HS has a "rule" about the # of apps they will process/send out and how it is handled -- here's the explanation from the other thread:
[quote]
The first 6 ( the maximum they recommend) apps. get done pronto (w/in 30 days of completion). The next 2 (if you want to appy to 7-8 schools) get done when all others have their first batch done. Any requests over 8 are charged (to the kid/family) $50 per application (so they claim). Only one person last year applied to over 8. And by the way, the $50 they collect per extra app. goes into a pot to buy gifts for the teachers. That's a nice touch.

[/quote]
</p>

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<p>Well, you can start with 10 app, half of them rolling and EA, maybe one ED, and find out come December that the news is not so good, leaving 5 of those hanging as RD as true risks. And you realize that your safety and another school are not what you want. Maybe you get word of some program somewhere, hear talk from other kids, find some online stuff, get some interesting mailings. So over Christmas break, an older and wiser kid, you fill out 5 more apps, maybe only two with substantial supplements or apps, the rest simpler common apps. Maybe you zap a few on line apps as well. This time it's on your dime, and mom and dad are not as on your back, which maybe they never should have been, but you wouldn't be able to do this as easily yourself had you not gone through that first gauntlet. After holiday break, you ask your school for another 10 transcripts and counselor recs and your recommenders as well. </p>

<p>Variations on that theme for us. My oldest only applied to 5 schools at first. Reluctantly. Only one school he really like as the coach there really wanted him, it seemed, loved the school, an ivy, a reach...but. He also applied to another not so high reach, reach/match, match, safety. Safety on line needed no recs and would even take an unofficial transcript but would require the official year end one upon commitment to attend. Match was a very short state school app. Well, come December, the coach at his first choice school had accepted a position elsewhere so no early write was given to son. High reach deferred him. The other three schools accepted him. But also he was getting referrals, phone calls and materials from a number of schools that he did not consider initially. Now, I had been nudging him all junior year without getting a stir of interest from him. He finally was "aroused" at the end of the year, and completed a bunch of apps, all of which he did end up visiting. He was waitlisted at 3 high reaches, including the one where the coach moved, and cleared the waitlist from one in August. (did not go there). The other two high reaches rejected him outright. He was accepted everywhere else and had a number of good choices at the end of the year, and owned the college process by then.<br>
But I digress. I can come up with many scenarios where it was a good process applying to more schools than many believe should be permitted. Would I start out with 20 schools? Nope. End up with them. Yep, did. And I have seen other kids with any number of schools, even beyond 20 who did just fine. I've seen families overreach with the number of schools, since you do have to be very organized when you are juggling all of those schools, and I would not recommend it as there are risks. But it can work out for some people.</p>

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<p>Interesting little tidbit here on the ease of applying to multiple colleges through the online Common App - last week the C.A. "recorded its one millionth online application this academic year, up from 682,357 online applications during the entire previous academic year." The millionth milestone is impressive but what is noteworthy is that the average number of colleges applied to by students through the online C.A. only marked a marginal increase up 3.9 from last year’s average of 3.8.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/20/qt%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2007/02/20/qt&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>