Two Roads Diverged...on sleepless nights, JHU, and Duke~all opinions welcome!

Parents Forum
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<p>I lived in Baltimore for many years, and have loved it. Many good friends there and we return every year for visits. I do not have any problem with the Homewood Campus location at all. Where I do have a problem is that housing is not available for all 4 years there and kids often go for the cheap housing in the Charles Village area where there have been 2 unsolved murders of Hopkins students in the last year. Homewood Campus is right on the cusp of a very nice city residential neighborhood, but if you go several blocks in some of the directions, you can run into seedier areas. Not as bad as Hyde Park (UChicago) where I lived for several years, and on the level of Oakland (CMU, Pitt) where I also lived for several years. The neighborhood of USC is also a bit dicier, in my book. As a city neighborhood, I have no qualms about going to JHU. However, Duke is definitely more of a total college campus in that it is not in a big city and stands pretty much alone as many large state university campuses do. If that environment is preferable to living in a city, Duke would, as Achat says, win hands down. I am very familiar with both schools as H did work at JHU and my nephew went there and to the med school (that neighborhood is truly BAD but it is 7 miles from Homewood campus) and my brother is a Duke graduate. Being a city gal, I prefer the JHU environment, but as a mom, Duke would be a preferred school for my kids without getting into the other things to consider, just on environment.</p>

<p>Both schools are top in medical and science research, and Duke has many such opportunities. Hopkins as well. No shortage in that area. The Beneficial Hodson is one of the top scholarships among colleges in the country--yes, it is very prestigious, and only the very top Hopkins kids get them. Those kids who are truly research oriented will fly high at Hopkins and many of them go on to become world class researchers. I would not recommend Hopkins to anyone who is not very much into research and is very serious about studying as the science gauntlet is one of the toughest. The grading scales are deflated and the profs really work the undergrads. No gentleman B's or C's here, particularly in the sciences. I would not recommend either my D or niece to go there even if they could have gotten in, because of the rigor of the curriculum. But your son seems to be ready for this challenge and for such a student, JHU is probably the best launching pad. For an overall college experience, I would say Duke, without hesitation. I would be looking for cheap fare to Baltimore, Berea, to accompany S, so you can see firsthand, and maybe take up the offer to stay at a CC Poster's home then as well, so you can meet them personally, and also assess Hopkins as a place for your son. A visit for S is essential. If you go, do get a tour of where the upperclass kids tend to live, as well. Right now I would not permit any kid of mine to live in that Charles Village area, but I would not hesitate to send one to Hopkins. </p>

<p>The great thing about the BH scholarship is that it is pure cash for 4 years. Any financial aid package is subject to changes. I had to fight with Fin Aid at Duke and Hopkins both, and neither is very helpful once you have a kid there and you need money. As Mini says, there is a lot you can do with that kind of money and he may still be able to get work study and subsidized loans on top of that. WIth financial aid, believe me, you end up grubbing for grants by the time the kid is a junior as the self help component of the package increases. Yeah, I've lived that. As you may have noticed, I spend a lot of time on the financial aid forum here, and the reason is that I am probably a Queen Bee recipient in my lifetime and have fought many financial aid offices. I would take a grant anytime, anyday.</p>

<p>There is one other issue I will bring up, which I do hesitate to do because it may flame people. First I want to make it clear, that given the choice (no money issues involved), for my kids I would send any of them to Duke (unless some special talent for something special at JHU cropped up). However, the climate of Duke is not as friendly to kids who are needy. This theme as recurred many times in articles about Duke. There was a young lady on financial aid at Duke featured in the Wall STreet Journal, that you may want to read if you can get it. The article was on the tough life the "have nots" lead in the "have" campuses, as financial aid only covers a portion of the need, as you well know from your EFC. The kids at Hopkins, in my opinion, tend to come from more of the working family. There is more the element of the work ethic there. More kids from families that are well to do or more indulgent at Duke. Not to say that there is less aid or anything, did not check those numbers, but it seems to me that even the kids from wealthy families at Hopkins had a very strong work ethic or mission, and it was not to have a whale of a good time at college, where that was a strong element at Duke. I would say Duke is a lot more social and a lot more fun. Hopkins is more like the tech schools in atmosphere, Duke more like the rah rah state school, though neither school is at those extremes. Just placing them on that spectrum, if you know what I mean.</p>

<p>I am happy that you and S and family have these wonderful choices, but, now you need to make a match. I hope you go and see yourself, Berurah , because I think your input will be very helpful for your son.Even if you leave the decision up to him, you may want to point out some things that a kid just may not notice or think to consider.</p>

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<p>MotherOfTwo,</p>

<p>
[quote]
Finally, isn't it nicer to have this kind of a worry than the types of worries you had a few weeks ago?!?

[/quote]

Most assuredly! :)</p>

<p>I am fully convinced that we will HAVE to find a way to visit both schools. This is just too big a decision!! ~b.</p>

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<p>Berurah: consider this...</p>

<p>JHU with prestigious scholarship and fewer financial worries...
leads to
medical school...
at Duke
or
Yale...</p>

<p>My Chinese doctor taught me this:
One step forward--a cliff.
One step backward--the big blue sea.</p>

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<p>Berurah: I can't compare Duke and JHU, nor their neighborhoods. Both are very highly regarded schools for research in biochemistry and related subjects. I also forget whether you have received the financial aid information from Duke.</p>

<p>Two things that you should look into, however, at both schools. Mind you. we're all assuming that your S will fully vindicate the judgements of the Duke, JHU and other adcoms that got him these great results. However, the road ahead is not necessarily clear of all obstructions.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>What is required to maintain any scholarships? If the scholarship is a merit-based one, most schools have some minimum GPA or other requirements to maintain it. Some are tougher to meet than others. Your S will be going through a rigorous set of courses at either school; you may need to consider a possible short-term difficulty in coping with coursework (whether you would like to or not).</p></li>
<li><p>If your S is considering medical school (one of several possibilities you have mentioned), you should check into what steps each school makes in supporting its graduates who apply to medical schools. Some highly competitive pre-med schools will limit the number of students for whom they provide recommendations to medical school, or take similar restrictive steps. Check this thoroughly with each school; also consult the CC medical school Board.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>jami,</p>

<p>THANKS for taking the time to post that...I'll be printing it out for my son to read too. This is JUST the kind of thing I was looking for when I posted! ~b.</p>

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<p>"I was especially seeking input from anyone for whom being a big scholarship recipient afforded some extra perks."</p>

<p>As I noted, it did for my d. Big Time. She was one of five awardees of their top academic scholarship. She got her choice of PAID research assistantships - and actually,. they created one around her, which has been amazing. (Last week, as the research assistant to the Five College Opera Consortium, she got to meet - the only student - with faculty of each of the colleges -- musical directors, heads of vocal programs, set designers, costume professionals, etc., as they figured out how to do the staging for the first-ever U.S. performance of the first opera ever written by a woman - of which my daughter is preparing the singing edition!) Best, tailormade advising. The tea thing. The college pres. knows her. (And it is likely helping as she raises funds to return to India this summer to build houses with tsuanami and flood victims.) It has made a very big difference, and it was something that none of the Ivies nor AWS could match.</p>

<p>It's why I asked what comes with the scholarship. By the way, even if it doesn't come automatically, if he visits campus, the perks may be something he can negotiate for. The creation of my d.'s research position came into being that way. (The other paid research offerings were terrific, but this one was tailormade for her.)</p>

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<p>About safety - I looked up the official crime statistics on both the JHU and Duke Campuses for Berurah and was surprised to find that the DUKE campus actually had more burgularies, robberies, and assaults than JHU. I have passed the actual numbers along to her via PM. I too had thought that JHU would be much more crime ridden but the truth - at least in terms of officially reported statistics - is that it is not. The surrounding area is dicey but the campus itself actually reports LESS crime than the Duke campus.</p>

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<p>DOS,</p>

<p>One must maintain a 3.0 to sustain the scholarship. I'll definitely check on your second point. ~b.</p>

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<p>mini,</p>

<p>The gentleman I spoke with on the phone today re: the scholarship (and he administrates the whole thing) assured me that the same types of perks you describe your D as having will be available to my son on the basis of the scholarship. ~b.</p>

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<p>carolyn,</p>

<p>The statistics surprised me greatly as well! Thanks for sending them! ~b.</p>

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<p>Isandin--great to hear!</p>

<p>Berurah--not familiar with either school! The choice sounds a little like the Berkeley vs. Chicago thread. JHU seems like the more intense place, overall, in this case, so I guess your son's personality and what he wants to get out of college should be the determining factors. I would probably lean toward JHU because of the scholarhip, but Duke sounds more fun!</p>

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<p>Compared to the cost of everything else (emotional as well as monetary), tickets to BWI are cheap...I say you have to have your son see the place. JHU is nothing like Duke. He may well be a kid for whom that doesn't matter a lick, and he may not. All the prestigious scholarships don't take the place of the "right fit"...the highly personal nature of the information you have received about JHU is important for one reason only, it tells you it is a UNIQUE place, worth looking at before signing on the dotted line...no matter the potential upside. This is not a case of schools of highly divergent rankings, these are both great places. If he will rise to the top at JHU by virtue of the privileges of the scholarship, it is likely he will rise to the top at Duke by virtue of the same qualities that earned him the scholarship!</p>

<p>I will reserve comment about our own observations, as they relate to visiting and not to attending, which is really what you need to know about!!</p>

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<p>Mini--Wow. I continue to be amazed by the talents of your D!</p>

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<p>Robrym is right. Tickets to BWI are cheap. If you have access to southwest air, they fly right into to BWI. You could then potentially rent a car and drive down to Duke and fly home via Southwest. I would also check travelocity (but Southwest is not on travelocity) and Orbitz to compare how other airlines stack up. I agree with the person above (sorry forget who) who said YOU should accompany your son on this trip --- he will be glad to have you as a sounding board while he makes this decision.</p>

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<p>carolyn,</p>

<p>Nothing's cheap out of where WE live, but I'll definitley look into it. Anyone know how to work priceline.com? ~b.</p>

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<p>Carolyn, anytime a discussion of JHU come up, the neighborhood is panned. Even in some of the widely used guide books. In my opinion, it is incorrect, having lived there. BUt you gotta go there and walk around to see what I mean. I think some of the issues arise because of confusion with the very well known Hopkins med school which IS in a high crime area. But it is a good 20-25 minutes by car away from Homewood campus. The neighborhood just diagonally across the street from the campus--Guilford, is a premier city residential neighborhood, where I would live in a second. Roland Park, again, within walking distance is another expensive neighborhood. But on the other side is more the student ghetto/working class neighborhood that fades gradually within about 10 blocks into seedier areas. However, the two Charles Village murders are something that makes me uneasy, especially the circumstances around them. And because it is within walking distance of the university and the townhouses are broken into very cheap apartments, student like to live there after sophomore year. The area is actually nicer than where I lived in Oakland in Pittsburgh, but the situation does make me pause, and I would not want a child of mine living there. Which means more expensive housing and the university lottery for two years. As I said to Berurah, I would not hesitate to encourage a child of mine to apply and/or go there, but I would be proactive in the housing situation because of the murders. The campus at Hopkins is very safe, contained and always filled with students and I don't have any issue with that. And the immediate surrounding area is the same, as many student live there and there is a student village, so to speak. The Hopkins campus is smaller and one unit and extremely well designed with cars only permitted on the perimeter whereas Duke is very spread out--several campuses necessitating bussing, at least when my brother was there. Hopkins runs a shuttle to the med school and to Goucher throughout the day, but anywhere on the main campus is easily accessible by foot.</p>

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<p>Berurah, Another suggestion - the Johns Hopkins Live Journal community is full of questions from prospies that are being answered by current students. Have your son read them and post his own questions here: <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/community/johnshopkins/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.livejournal.com/community/johnshopkins/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>hi again - We visited both schools in our college tour phase, and I agree with roby that they are VERY different in atmosphere (although both great for your son's academic interests). If you are able to visit them, you will sense the atmosphere of each yourselves firsthand, as well as which seems to be the best fit for your son, and won't need to rely on our descriptions. I'm glad you are determined to find a way to visit the schools.</p>

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<p>On crime statistics, they are more fluid than they seem. Try not to get the absolute numbers but the numbers per thousand students. Also, be wary: USC's statistics, for instance, include only those incidents reported to the [private] University police...incidents reported to LAPD are not included.</p>

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<p>"Mini--Wow. I continue to be amazed by the talents of your D!"</p>

<p>I could claim it is genes, but I think they likely skipped several generations. ;)</p>

<p>B - the perks may turn out to be more important than the school. (Yes, he -- and you -- need to visit. But another unsolicited word of advice - when you visit, split up for large parts of the visit, and then come back periodically (twice a day) and compare notes together. There may be questions you would ask without him around, and vice versa. And you will both learn more without each of you immediately filtering the others' experience.</p>