<p>ahh, ladyk, there is a difference in my opinion between "being friends with" and "surrounding". You're right, people have the right to "be friends with" whomever they want. I take the phrase "people have the right to surround themselves with whom they want" to mean that they also have the right to exclude people from their presence simply because of race.</p>
<p>This obviously could never exist, but in theory, you are fine with separate but equal, right? I mean as long as people of color and white people have the same level of power, they shouldn't have to associate if they don't want to? Delta airlines can offer a white flight as long as there's a colored flight with the same number of seats, ammeneties, and qualified pilots and similar flight times? There will also still be general admissions flights. It's the same amount of power right? Restaurants use to have smoking and non-smoking sections, can they have colored and white sections as long as they receieve equal service, decor, and quality of food, and offer a mixed section as well? As long as can be sure we're equal, there's no need to force a white person to be surrounded by minorities at a restaurant, right?</p>
<p>Well it could never exist they way you describe it, but yes, in theory Im for what you're talking about, however, what you're describing is NOT "separate but equal". It's choice and equal where people could be separate AND equal (not "but") OR be "mixed" as you put it (can a true, full "mix" ever exist?) OR sit in one section/place one day and in another the next. I would also envision this with not only racial but gender, sexuality, political views whatever different people want to connect on with there always being room to "mix" if people choose to. I would call it choice and i would call it the ideal integrated society.</p>
<p>...this is of course a different type of argument then twtp though because twtp isn't a general service or resource like a restaurant/airplane limited to students of color. TWTP is a resource in and of itself - it is a conversation for people of color about being people of color - it is it's own independent entity not your typical general business service or resource. to have non-people of color in the room changes the dynamics of the conversation. there's no way around it, it does, and then it is no longer really twtp (just "twtp" in name maybe but actually something different). Having twtp is not the same as a restaurant for a specific race or a restaurant with a section for different racial groups.</p>
<p>and i never said that. I actually think TWTP is very important, but I would still argue that it should not be a pre-orientation program.e</p>
<p>I've never met someone so openly against forced integration as you are. I think the issue is much like the separate and equal line is a fine one to tread so is the "prejudice is ok as long as we don't deprive people of power" line that you preach. Who/what defines when my personal views start to limit people's freedoms?</p>
<p>"TWTP is very important, but I would still argue that it should not be a pre-orientation program.e"</p>
<p>iwannabebrown WHY do you think TWTP is important. WHY? Answer this question properly and you will see that it makes sense for it to be a pre-orientation program.</p>
<p>I think TWTP is important because minoritiy students need a space to discuss amongst themselves issues that affect the transition to college that are unique to their minority status. I think being able to talk more anecdotally (i.e. if you were transititioning into the white majority college at the time of the program) would be more helpful in than a whole bunch of "in theories" that may or may not apply to your experiences that have yet to come.</p>
<p>At least this is the way I operate on a lot of other things. I don't want to waste my time in a program meant to help me when I don't need the help. If after the first day of moving in, I was like holy ****, I have issues (sorry, don't really know how else to phrase it) then I'd be glad that I had a TWTP session that day.</p>
<p>I've never been to TWTP, so maybe I'm missing the point, but I thought the program was supposed to be more helpful than cautionary, which is why I believe it is better served to not be entirely before orientation starts.</p>
<p>"I think TWTP is important because minoritiy students need a space to discuss amongst themselves issues that affect the transition to college that are unique to their minority status."</p>
<p>Your exactly right. It's only when you say, "the program was supposed to be more helpful than cautionary, which is why I believe it is better served to not be entirely before orientation starts," that a problem arises. I just don't think "cautionary" is the right word here. Let me explain. In addition to what you said earlier, TWTP is also a place for empowerment so that when participants leave Andrews Hall they are equipped with the confidence necessary to interact with white students, white DPS officers, white professsors etc. We do forewarn/caution them about the racism at Brown, but then we empower them asserting that we can resist such racism and this is how..... That is why TWTP is so important and that is why the program works. </p>
<p>"If after the first day of moving in, I was like holy ****, I have issues (sorry, don't really know how else to phrase it) then I'd be glad that I had a TWTP session that day."</p>
<p>I TOTALLY here you on this point. That is why TWTP also focuses on community building so that when first years, sophomores, even upperclassmen have issues they can go to the TWTP leaders of the present and past and seek their help. There are also MPCs in every first year unit at Brown than can help with those holy **** moments. Let's also not forget about the monthly unity days, almost weekly MPC workshops, History Months, where everyone, even white students, can adress issues that they see with the "-isms" (racism, imperialism, sexism, heterosexism, and classism) at Brown and beyond.</p>
<p>I see what you're saying with the first point, doesnt the 2nd point only reinforce the idea that a pre-orientation program isn't necessary though? i.e. there are other resources available such that TWTP before students move in is not necessary.</p>
<p>if TWTP teaches you how to deal with the police, then maybe it's more important to have it then I thought. I woudl like to relay something i just saw. I'm walking from the OMAC to CVS. I see 3 white girls and 1 white guy walk up to two black kids (the kids could not have been more than 15), the white kids were pobably a little older (16 or 17) I see them digging around in the black kids backpack and then I see the white kids handing over some cash. I also see that a cop is driving by. I walk into CVS, when I come out, the cop is pulling out of the pembroke parking lot and is sitting in his car. He gives a glance to the black kids who are still standing on the corner. The cop is about to pull away (i.e. his car is already moving forward) when one of the kids yells to him "Hey cop, what you lookin at? You gonna arrest me?" Of course, the cop stops, and gets out of the car. I didn't bother to stay cuz I had to get home, but I had to write this. Arguably one of the stupidest things I've ever seen someone do. I don't know what happened. Despite everything that's been said in this thread, can I get consensus that this is a really stupid thing to do, and please don't tell me he wouldn't have gotten out of the car or stopped if they were white kids, because as I said, the cop was already in the process of leaving them alone when they provoked him.</p>
<p>"doesnt the 2nd point only reinforce the idea that a pre-orientation program isn't necessary though? i.e. there are other resources available such that TWTP before students move in is not necessary."</p>
<p>No not at all. Those resources take on a completely different dynamic because they are for ALL Brown students. Also there is something to be said about 200 students of color sitting in TWTP talking about how to resist systems of oppression than 30 students at a Unity Day talking about racism in the media. The degree of empowerment is totally different.</p>
<p>your point about twtp being a problem as a pre-orientation program is still based on the idea that twtp causes "self-segregation". there is NO proof of a causal relationship here. People just assume that there is one. Many people form strong bonds with people who they did not meet at twtp through other twc events after twtp or they form bonds with those who did not go to twtp. Those who choose their friends at twtp and aren't meeting others or making friends with white people after are the people who would "self-segergate" anyway. They are the people who are interested in finding friends based on racial experiences or they are the type to latch on to a group of friends within a few days and not meet new people or expand their friendship circles. It is not twtp causing this, this is the way some people are and the issue is a much larger societal one, not just one that became a problem here because of twtp and not just one that exist around twtp (i.e. people only being friends with those in their freshman unit, athletes only being friends with athletes they meet during their pre-training when theyre on campus early, students only being friends with those people who took the same classes as you that freshman year, ect). If you think it is wrong for people to latch on to the first people they meet and not be open to making new and different types of friends then make THAT argument. If you do feel that way, however, than your strategy should be thinking of programs/forums to have people meet new people and make new friends during the year in addition to the ones that they made the first day they arrived on campus (no matter when they arrived on campus and no matter through which pre-orientation or which freshman unit the friends formed in).</p>