<p>“However, I cannot help but wonder why Golden so regularly attacks UMich, both in the general forum and the UMich forum.”</p>
<p>Easy answer Hattrickty9. Both of goldenboy’s parents are Buckeye graduates. The obsession with Michigan was instilled in him at a young age.</p>
<p>I don’t want to get dragged (again) into this argument but I’ve never been one to believe that undergraduate prestige does not matter in law school and medical school admissions despite the CC mantra that only GPA and LSAT/MCAT matter. But looks at the stats recently posted:</p>
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</p>
<p>It sure does look like the Stanford kids had a higher acceptance rate with a similar LSAT score and a modestly lower GPA. Shouldn’t the Michigan kids have done better if the undergraduate name meant nothing since these are both excellent schools?</p>
<p>^ I agree. Top law school admissions seem to place more weight on prestigious undergrad.</p>
<p>
Where is this limited information? The Cal advising office does a terrible job of compiling information from what I’ve seen with their premed statistics. I would be shocked if Michigan did better than Cal or Cornell since those schools are relatively large and have more accomplished student bodies overall than Michigan and field their own impressive T-14 Law Schools. I believe Duke and Penn do better since Duke Law and Penn Law seem to unfairly favor their own students as well and their placement into Columbia and Harvard Law Schools have always been much more impressive than Michigan’s.</p>
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Sure, I have Yale which does much better than Michigan and Johns Hopkins which does much worse</p>
<p>Yale
<a href=“http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/Law_School_Application_Statistics.pdf[/url]”>http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/Law_School_Application_Statistics.pdf</a>
Columbia: 20
Cornell: 4
Duke: 4
Georgetown: 11
Harvard: 26
NYU: 23
Northwestern: 3
Stanford: 12
UC Berkeley: 6
U of Chicago: 1
U of Michigan: 0
U Penn: 12
UVA: 0
Yale: 33</p>
<p>TOTAL: 155</p>
<p>Yale is clearly the king of law school placement though.</p>
<p>Johns Hopkins
<a href=“Pre-Professional Advising | Student Affairs”>Pre-Professional Advising | Student Affairs;
Columbia:
Yale: 1
Columbia: 3
Cornell: 1
Duke: 3
Georgetown: 3
Harvard: 3
Michigan: 4
NYU: 2
Penn: 4
The Rest: 0</p>
<p>TOTAL: 24</p>
<p>
Yale also seems to get a huge boost at Harvard Law over Michigan.</p>
<p>Michigan: 14 admitted (average 3.93 GPA, 172 LSAT)
Yale: 64 admitted (average 3.80 GPA, 173.2 LSAT)</p>
<p>The average GPA for a Yalie to get into Stanford Law was 3.83 while the average GPA for a Michigan student for a Stanford acceptance was a whopping 3.99!</p>
<p>YaleGradandDad, there is no doubt that the quality of the undergraduate institution influences admissions in law school. Many on CC claim that the undergraduate institution does not influence the outcome of law school admission. That only GPA and LSAT play a role. That is clearly not the case. Harvard, Princeton, Stanford and Yale seem to place their students into T14 Law schools better than other top universities. Beyond those four, I have noticed that there are two dozen or so LACs and universities that are always well represented at the top Law schools. Students from those universities 30-35 colleges and universities generally make up over 75% of the US-educated students at most T14 Law schools. </p>
<p>At any rate, it is now past May 1, so I assume the OP has decided where to go. Bearing in mind that the OP is intent on majoring in Engineering, and that Michigan is $100k cheaper, his decision must have been tough.</p>
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</p>
<p>But how much of that is because:</p>
<p>a. those schools actually prepare students better for law school (better LSAT preparation and grade inflation), versus
b. those schools are favored by law school admissions committees, versus
c. those schools’ admissions selectivity favor students who do well on standardized tests and grades, thereby selecting students who are most likely to do well on the LSAT and college grades</p>
<p>?</p>
<p>For b above, #66 suggests that there is some favoritism by Harvard Law of Yale over Michigan, while #54 suggests that there is little (perhaps not significant) difference between Stanford and Michigan to Harvard Law.</p>
<p>But, as noted above, this may be irrelevant to the OP, who wants to go into engineering.</p>
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</p>
<p>Because none of us, really, can answer the OP’s question for him. And because it is a specific instance of a recurring, more general question:
Is highly selective private school X worth $$$$ more than very good alternative Y?</p>
<p>One way we try to address that question is by re-framing it as,<br>
Do the most selective, most expensive schools provide significantly, measurably better outcomes than their less expensive alternatives?</p>
<p>Then we step through some of the factors we think we know how to measure (alumni salaries, law and med school admissions, etc.) </p>
<p>So what have we demonstrated so far? We’ve suggested that maybe the prestige of schools like Stanford (and Princeton) gives their students a significant, measurable advantage in law school admissions, compared to students with similar qualifications who apply from less prestigious colleges. Does the same prestige difference convey the same advantages in different scenarios? Not necessarily. Across a hiring or admission interview desk, it might be harder to work that mojo on an engineer than a lawyer.</p>
<p>Well we can all agree on one thing; for engineering the OP had a tough decision between Michigan and Princeton. It’s not like he had to choose some middling program like Duke which would have made his choice a complete and total no brainer.</p>
<p>
You’re right; Michigan, Duke, and Princeton don’t hold a candle to Berkeley, MIT, and Stanford in Engineering.</p>
<p>Alexandre:</p>
<p>I think your discussion of the importance of which school you go to as an influence on law school admissions may be missing the point.</p>
<p>Though the raw data show that Yale students are more likely to get into top law schools than Michigan students. Yale is the more selective school, so this may be reflective of the fact that a higher percentage of the very very top students are at Yale.</p>
<p>I would think the more meaningful comparison would be the admissions rates of students admitted to Yale who went to Michigan vs the admissions rates of students admitted to Yale who went to Yale. I don’t think that anyone has done this specific study (probably not enough data to be statistically significant, anyway). </p>
<p>The only comparable study I know is the Princeton study which more or less shows that there is not a significant difference in career earnings of Ivy Students vs Students admitted to Ivies but who went elsewhere.</p>
<p>“You’re right; Michigan, Duke, and Princeton don’t hold a candle to Berkeley, MIT, and Stanford in Engineering.”</p>
<p>Once again a Dukie futily trying to equate his school with superior programs. Sorry goldyboy, but Michigan and Princeton are both very strong in undergraduate engineering. Michigan is a T6 school here, your new pet expression. Duke, your beloved alma mater, is the one school that is the outlier that you have mentioned. It’s really quite embarrassing to be honest. </p>
<p>[Best</a> Undergraduate Engineering Programs | Rankings | US News](<a href=“http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate]Best”>http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/engineering-doctorate)</p>
<p>^At least Duke engineering beat out Harvard! 
Harvard engineers should be REALLY REALLY embarrassed to even say they are part of such a terrible program considering Duke is such a middling program. (Obviously, I’m joking. Harvard engineers have no need to be embarrassed, and neither do Duke’s.) There’s a reason that somehow these programs attract very high achieving students despite their relatively lower engineering ranks according to USN&WR - the middle 50% range for ACT range at Duke for it’s engineering school is 33-35; I’m sure Harvard’s number are sky high too. It’s hard for schools like Duke (and Harvard for that matter) with only 4 engineering departments to compete in engineering research output with the Ga Tech’s of the world with 12+ departments.</p>
<p>In any event, no need to respond and don’t want to get further sidetracked. I’m sure the OP based the decision on his/her gut with some financial considerations as well and will end up being happy with the decision. Both are obviously great places to be at.</p>
<p>
Thanks, I guess I should go to Illinois and Purdue since no one hires Duke, Yale, Brown, or Harvard engineers.</p>
<p>
I would agree with this with the caveat that on an absolute level, there are probably as many 2200+ SAT scorers at Michigan as at Yale due to the former institution’s immsense size.</p>
<p>I think Yale does better for a variety of reasons: more prestige as an undergraduate school amongst the T6 Law School Admissions offices, a higher quality undergraduate education than Michigan which leads to higher LSAT scores, and the presence of a more clustered group of super smart students that leads to all of them rubbing off of one another and motivating each of them compared to Michigan which has more mediocre students, etc.</p>
<p>This topic is sad. To answer the OP question, if you can afford Princeton, go for it. Otherwise, you’ll have no problems at Michigan.</p>
<p>“In any event, no need to respond and don’t want to get further sidetracked.”</p>
<p>This whole thread was sidetracked as soon as goldyboy made his comment in post #20.</p>
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</p>
<p>How can it be anything besides b. when we are showing Michigan students matched for LSAT scores and doing even better on their GPAs yet getting a much lower acceptance rate. It seems pretty clear to me that this shows certain schools are favored by law school admission committees independent of the students aptitude to get a high GPA and LSAT score at either institution.</p>
<p>I would bet the same exists for T-6 medical schools although I have never seen published data. I only know that my T-6 medical school was loaded with grads from selective institutions in a way unexplainable by the CC mantra of equal standing from all schools including state flagships with only GPA and MCAT scores mattering.</p>
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</p>
<p>The previous posts indicate that, for Harvard Law admissions, Yale is favored over Michigan, but Stanford is not (or only very minimally), if one looks at admits’ GPA and LSAT scores.</p>
<p>But the presence of b in a particular comparison does not necessarily mean that a and c are absent.</p>
<p>“I would bet the same exists for T-6 medical schools although I have never seen published data.”</p>
<p>Please show me the list of T-6 medical schools in print YaleGradandDad. So far I haven’t found anything.</p>
<p>I would be happy to offer USNWR as an example of medical school ranking where I would expect this preference to be seen.</p>