<p>
</p>
<p>He brought up Duke because by your logic, there is no way you, as a Dukie would be able to achieve the same level of success had you been admitted to and graduated from Princeton, which is a stronger school based on the esoteric stats you seem to trumpet…</p>
<p>Golden:</p>
<p>My goodness, the quantity of passive aggressive/condescending statements in that one post was remarkable. Bravo! God be with your first employer if he/she doesn’t have the pedigree that you respect. Anyway, let’s address this:</p>
<p>“It’s not an academic environment that encourages mediocrity.”<br>
Fascinating. Tell me, when was the last time you were in Ann Arbor? What classes did you sit in on? What was the “environment” like? It astounds me that you can characterize the environment of an entire university like that. From my vantage point, you seem to be VERY impressed with the sparkles and flash that come with the Princeton name. But to tell me that Princeton students never go to an average law school is simply untrue. People can do poorly at Princeton. They can get weaker internships than <em>gasp</em> UMich students. College is one line on a resume. You seem to think it defines a person.</p>
<p>Secondly, downplaying UMich engineering is not a popular stance on this board. When was the last time you used Google? You have UMich Engineering to thank for that. </p>
<p>Finally, I don’t know if you want to discuss connections and networking. UMich has the largest living Alumni base, and wolverines are fiercely loyal, as you may or may not have noticed. </p>
<p>To the OP: Clearly you’re very talented and capablethose students do VERY well and land spots in top grad schools. I know Shipmans at UMich who are graduating this year. Some are headed off to top Grad programs (even programs Goldenboy would be impressed with!). 2 of my friends have top jobs lined up in their fields. 1 is headed to Egypt for the year on a full scholarship.</p>
<p>You’d hold 1 of 15 prestigious Shipman Scholarships and be enrolled at U Mich ENGINEERING, not U Mich. There’s no denying chem e is very strong at Princeton, pretty much on par with Mich as I’m sure your know, but engineering as a whole is still probably stronger at Mich.</p>
<p>With the Shipman, you should fare just as well in applications to grad schools or with job prospects. The culture at the 2 schools is very different and don’t know which would appeal to you (an Alaskan!) more. </p>
<p>If money is not an issue and the culture seems a better fit, I agree with Alexandre and go to Princeton. If money is a concern and/or the Big House seems a better fit than Old Nassau, head to Ann Arbor.</p>
<p>
People can do poorly at Princeton GPA wise but even these individuals tend to get high LSAT scores since they were strong students to begin with (to be admitted to Princeton) and will still have very advanced critical thinking and reasoning skills due to their superior Princeton undergraduate education. Even a 3.0 student from Princeton with a 170 or higher on the LSAT will still get into a strong regional law school at the very least if not Georgetown. The name carries a lot of weight to law school admissions officers.</p>
<p>
Colleges by themselves don’t define people, but the opportunities they offer and the resources they provide their students can transform these individuals to be very high achievers who maximize their potential and develop into formidable men and women. Princeton has a better track record of doing this than almost any other college in the country.</p>
<p>
I actually have Stanford’s CS graduate program to thank for that–Sergey Brin and Larry Page developed Google in a garage in Palo Alto while they were pursuing PhDs. </p>
<p>
Having thousands of alumni in every city actually dilutes the value of the alumni network since every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the street will have a Michigan degree and thus less likely to help one another out. By your logic, Arizona State and Ohio State must have stronger alumni networks than Princeton or Dartmouth.</p>
<p>“By your logic, Arizona State and Ohio State must have stronger alumni networks than Princeton or Dartmouth.”</p>
<p>Of course they don’t. I do of feel kind of sorry for your parents however, since they are both Buckeye grads. I wonder if they have any idea how little you respect their education.</p>
<p>“Having thousands of alumni in every city actually dilutes the value of the alumni network since every Tom, Dick, and Harry on the street will have a Michigan degree and thus less likely to help one another out.”</p>
<p>What an inane comment goldenboy. You are getting more ridiculous with every posting.</p>
<p>Golden: </p>
<p>"…but even these individuals tend to get high LSAT scores since they were strong students to begin with"
Where is this statistic? There is no doubt that Princeton is a great institution. I mean, c’mon, it’s Princeton. But to suggest that a successful, bright student at UMich will do worse than a successful, bright student at Princeton is a generalization that no one can support. A student simply cannot coast on brand name alone. You have to perform, and to suggest that Princeton students simply outperform their UMich counterparts because USNWR says so is just not true…but I believe this is something you’ll have to learn with maturity. </p>
<p>How can you compare the opportunities provided at these institutions without ever attending either school!? If this were UMich v. Duke, you would certainly be well-positioned to argue that. But you didn’t go to either institution! So you’re essentially guessing here, right? </p>
<p>As for Google, let’s ask Mr. Page:
“Its not easy for me to express how proud I am to be here…at this amazing institution that is responsible for my very existence…When I was here at Michigan, I had actually been taught how to make dreams real!” (See: his commencement speech at UMich). </p>
<p>I won’t even address the comment about the “diluted” UMich degree. I don’t think you actually believe that. And if you do, you’ll have to explain how the Dean of Harvard Law was able to sneak into that cushy position…</p>
<p>“Most Michigan grads go to run-of-the mill law schools like Michigan State, Wayne State, Cardozo, Brooklyn, Cooley–not NYU Law, Michigan Law, or Harvard Law. You simply don’t graduate from Princeton and go to a non T-14 or top regional law school. It’s not an academic environment that encourages mediocrity.”</p>
<p>First of all, your statement is extremely offensive Goldenboy. To suggest that any university asprires to or fosters an environment that encourages mediocrity is extremely offensive.</p>
<p>Secondly, what does law school matriculation, or medical school matriculation as mentioned by you in an earlier post in this thread, have to do with Engineering? The OP has not indicated an interest in Law or Medicine.</p>
<p>Thirdly, your statement is laughably incorrect. I have no idea how you can claim that Princeton students “simply don’t go to non T-14 Law schools”. Princeton happens not to provide a detailed and complete list of where their prelaw students matriculate. Stanford, on the other hand, does. I would assume that since Stanford and Princeton are academic peers, their law school matriculations would mirror each other. Out of the 180 Stanford students who enrolled in Law school last year, 100 matriculated in T14 Law schools while 80 did not. Several of those 80 enrolled in law schools such as Southwestern, Pacific, Vermont, Wyoming, Mississippi etc… Naturally, Stanford’s T14 to non-T14 matriculation ratio is extremely impresive and significantly better than Michigan’s, but that is to be expected. Michigan’s matriculation statistics would be closer to schools like Cal, Cornell, Emory, Georgetown, Northwestern, Penn and UVa’s. Nobody denies the fact that Princeton matriculation statistics are significantly better than Michigan’s, but to claim that Princeton does not have students who matriculate into non-T14 Law schools is simply not true. Incidently, Michigan generally matriculates more students into T14 Law schools than Princeton or Stanford.</p>
<p>“If you’re interested in traditional engineering jobs, then the OP would be better off choosing Michigan I suppose with the savings advantage. However, if the OP wants to go into high finance/consulting like most Princeton engineers do, then Princeton would be easily worth the 100K.”</p>
<p>First of all, did the OP mention an interest in a career in Investment Banking or Management Consulting? Is this his design in pursuing an undergraduate education?</p>
<p>Secondly, top Engineering students at Michigan (and given the OP’s scholarship, he certainly seems to be cut of that cloth) generally have the pick of career opportunities. Major IBanking and MC firms recruit many students at the CoE.</p>
<p>
Alexandre, you need to acknowledge that the non-HYP Ivies, Duke, and Northwestern place much better at top law schools than these state schools you keep trying to group them with.</p>
<p>Here are Brown’s complete and detailed law school placement statistics for instance:
[Admission</a> Statistics | Law School Advising](<a href=“http://brown.edu/academics/college/advising/law-school/statistics]Admission”>Admission Statistics | Pre-Law Advising)</p>
<p>Perhaps not quite as impressive as Stanford but about 43% of Brown seniors/alumni enroll into at T-14 law school.</p>
<p>At Michigan, about 18% of seniors/alumni attend T-14 law schools and 112 students total.
[College</a> of Literature, Science, and the Arts : Students](<a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats]College”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats)
A lot of this is this is to the blatant inbreeding promoted by Michigan Law.</p>
<p>Harvard, Yale, and Stanford
Brown: 37
Michigan: 11</p>
<p>At the top 3 law schools, there are 2 times as many Brown grads as Michigan grads. Can we please stop pretending like Michigan is on par with the Ivies?
Michigan Engineering gets no front office recruitment and the top consulting firms take maybe about 5 Michigan Engineers (McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Booz, and Deloitte S&O).</p>
<p>I do not need to acknowledge anything Goldenboy. It is you who needs to acknowledge your ignorance and blatant prejudice. </p>
<p>First of all, I never compared Michigan to Brown at prelaw. I compared Michigan to Cal, Cornell, Emory, Georgetown, Northwestern, Penn and UVa. The average Brown applicant to law school has a 3.66 GPA with a 166 LSAT score. The average Michigan applicant to law school has a 3.30 GPA with a 160 on the LSAT. It is not possible to compare Brown’s overall results to Michigan’s. The question to ask is whether or not law school applicants of equal caliber do better at Brown than at Michigan. Michigan still sends more students to T14 Law schools than any university save Harvard. </p>
<p>Secondly, your comment about Michigan Law School “blatantly promoting inbreeding” is pointless and weak. What Law school does not give preference to its own undergrads? In the case of Michigan, it is blatant inbreeding, so what is it in the case of other T14 law schools? Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago, Georgetown, UVa etc… all do it. I guess in their case, they are merely admitting the most qualified candidates eh?! If Michigan did not have a law school, those students would have obviously gone to another T14 Law school. The Michigan students who matriculate in Michigan Law School have an average LSAT of 167 and an average Michigan GPA of 3.7. Those are similar to the stats of Michigan students who enrolled in several other T14 Law schools, including Columbia, Cornell, Duke, Georgetown and Penn Law schools.</p>
<p>Thirdly, I am not sure how you figured that no Michigan engineers land front office jobs at IBanks or how only 5 Michigan engineers are hired by management consulting firms annually. I have no data that can prove or disprove your claim other than anecdotal evidence. All that is clear is that 10% of Michigan engineers join consulting firms while 6% join Financial Services firms. I also know that Accenture, BCG, Deloitte Consulting, McKinsey, Oliver Wyman, BoA, Barclays Capital, Citi, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, Morgan Stanley and UBS all recruit on campus. </p>
<p><a href=“http://career.engin.umich.edu/annualReport/engin/Annual_Report1011.pdf[/url]”>http://career.engin.umich.edu/annualReport/engin/Annual_Report1011.pdf</a></p>
<p>
Alexandre, your delusional praise of your alma mater is getting so out of hand that its hard to take you serious even when you’re a supermoderator. Average LSATs and GPAs don’t really matter when you’re comparing an institution as large as Michigan to a medium-sized private school like Brown. Brown might have smarter, heck even much smarter, pre law students than Michigan but U of M simply has a lot more law school aspirants than Brown so it should be as well as represented at the top law schools. After all, doesn’t Michigan have more 1400+ scorers on the SAT and 32+ scorers on the ACT than Harvard? Just by sheer consideration of probability, a few of the pre law students at Michigan who somewhat underachieved in high school should now have numbers that should put them in contention for Harvard Law but this seems a lot rarer a lot in reality than in theory.</p>
<p>Here are Princeton’s law school placement statistics for the last cycle: [Stats</a> « Office of Career Services « Princeton University](<a href=“Search Opportunities | Human Resources”>Search Opportunities | Human Resources)</p>
<p>Admitted to Yale
Princeton: 19
Michigan: 2</p>
<p>Admitted to Stanford
Princeton: 19
Michigan: 6</p>
<p>Admitted to Harvard
Princeton: 27
Michigan: 14</p>
<p>Admitted to Columbia
Princeton: 51
Michigan: 22</p>
<p>Admitted to NYU
Princeton: 50
Michigan: 41</p>
<p>Admitted to Chicago
Princeton: 20
Michigan: 23</p>
<p>TOTAL T6 ACCEPTANCES
Princeton: 186
Michigan: 108</p>
<p>Princeton is far better represented in terms of total acceptances at the T6 Law Schools despite Michigan enrolling a lot more high test scorers at an absolute level.</p>
<p>Cornell, Yale, Harvard, Berkeley, and UVA also send more students to T14 law schools than Michigan in all likelihood.</p>
<p>My point was that the majority of Michigan grads go to lower tier law schools which brings down the reputation of the university. A university is only as good as its weakest cohort of students and Michigan’s is…pretty bad.</p>
<p>
These Michigan students join the back office divisions doing technology support work or risk operations. As far as the consulting firms go, a few Michigan engineers here and there will get BCG or Oliver Wyman but this is like 1% of the engineering population. Its similar to the odds of a Rutgers student landing a bulge bracket investment banking offer.</p>
<p>“Alexandre, your delusional praise of your alma mater is getting so out of hand that its hard to take you serious even when you’re a supermoderator.”</p>
<p>Thanks for the praise Goldenboy.</p>
<p>At any rate, there is no such thing as “T6” law schools. HSY are generally considered the top 3, after that, different sources have different rankings. And if you are going to include Chicago, Columbia and NYU, you must include Michigan, which is generally rated among the top 5 Law schools in the nation according to the experts (Big Law, Legal Scholars and Judges/Lawyers.</p>
<p>Not that it mattersin the case of Michigan vs Princeton since (1) the Princeton’s figures that you listed are for admitted students, not matriculated students and (2) Princeton is indeed in a different league than Michigan. I consider Princeton the best university in the US. But since Princeton does not provide the figures for matriculating students, comparing Michigan to Princeton is pointless.</p>
<p>“Cornell, Yale, Harvard, Berkeley, and UVA also send more students to T14 law schools than Michigan in all likelihood.”</p>
<p>Stanford, UVa, Michigan and Emory all list matriculation figures and Michigan beats all of them. Cal and Cornell have limited numbers, but they point to their matriculating fewer students into T14 Law schools. Harvard and Yale do not provide any data. Harvard definitely places more students in T14 Law schools, Yale most likely does as well. Beyond those two, I cannot think of another university that does.</p>
<p>Below are recent years’s number of students who matriculated in T14 Law schools from schools who actually publish such figures:</p>
<p>Michigan:
Michigan Law: 45
New York University Law: 13
Harvard Law: 9
Chicago Law: 8
Columbia Law: 8
Duke Law: 5
Georgetown Law: 5
Penn Law: 5
Northwestern Law: 4
Cornell Law: 3
UVa: 3
Cal Law: 2
Stanford Law: 1
Yale Law: 1
TOTAL: 112</p>
<p>[College</a> of Literature, Science, and the Arts : Students](<a href=“http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats]College”>http://www.lsa.umich.edu/advising/advisor/prelaw/um_stats)</p>
<p>Stanford:
Harvard Law: 20
Stanford Law: 16
Yale Law: 12
Cal Law: 11
Georgetown Law: 11
New York University Law: 8
Columbia Law: 5
Northwestern Law: 5
Duke Law: 3
Michigan Law: 3
Chicago Law: 2
Cornell Law: 2
Penn Law: 1
UVa Law: 1
TOTAL: 100</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.stanford.edu/group/SPLS/content/0809lawdata.pdf[/url]”>http://www.stanford.edu/group/SPLS/content/0809lawdata.pdf</a></p>
<p>UVa:
UVa Law: 38
Harvard Law: 11
Michigan Law: 9
Georgetown Law: 8
Cal Law: 4
New York University Law: 4
Penn Law: 4
Stanford Law: 3
Chicago Law: 2
Columbia Law: 2
Cornell Law: 2
Duke Law: 1
Northwestern Law: 1
Yale Law: 1
TOTAL: 90
<a href=“http://www.career.virginia.edu/students/preprof/prelaw/lawstats_2009.pdf[/url]”>http://www.career.virginia.edu/students/preprof/prelaw/lawstats_2009.pdf</a></p>
<p>Emory:
Georgetown Law: 12
Penn Law: 5
UVa Law: 4
Chicago Law: 3
Duke Law: 3
Michigan Law: 3
Northwestern Law: 3
Harvard Law: 2
New York University Law: 2
Yale Law: 2
Cornell Law: 1
Stanford Law: 1
Cal Law: 0
Columbia Law: 0
TOTAL: 41</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.career.emory.edu/parents/pdf/2010%20Complete%20Pre-Law%20Synopsis.pdf[/url]”>http://www.career.emory.edu/parents/pdf/2010%20Complete%20Pre-Law%20Synopsis.pdf</a></p>
<p>If you have similar data for other universities, feel free to share them. I doubt any university other Harvard and may Yale matriculate more students in T14 Law schools. If Stanford does not quite make it, I don’t see how any university other than Harvard and Yale will.</p>
<p>“My point was that the majority of Michigan grads go to lower tier law schools which brings down the reputation of the university. A university is only as good as its weakest cohort of students and Michigan’s is…pretty bad.”</p>
<p>How very Klingon of you! Are our children also doomed to our disgraceful reputation? Any other pearls you wish to share?</p>
<p>“These Michigan students join the back office divisions doing technology support work or risk operations. As far as the consulting firms go, a few Michigan engineers here and there will get BCG or Oliver Wyman but this is like 1% of the engineering population. Its similar to the odds of a Rutgers student landing a bulge bracket investment banking offer.”</p>
<p>More pearls I see. Do you have proof to substantiate your claims? I would expect a Harvard Law-bound student to support his claims far more ably! Michigan has one of the top 10 Engineering programs in the US. It has very driven and talented students. 17% (over 150 students) join Financial Services and Consulting firms each year. Most major Consulting and IBanking firm recruits on campus. And with all that, the best you can do is claim that not a single one of those students lands a front office job at an IBank and that only 1% of those students land jobs with Management Consulting firms.</p>
<p>^ The Michigan v. Stanford numbers appear to greatly favor Stanford when you adjust for school size and focus on individual law schools. 7K Stanford undergraduates yield 20 Harvard law matriculations; 27K Michigan undergrads yield 9 Harvard law matriculations.</p>
<p>Of course, some important information is missing here. How many students applied in each case and what were their credentials?</p>
<p>tk, Stanford is clearly in a different league. Both schools have a proportional number of law school matriculants (~14% of their undergraduate student populations are prelaw), yet Stanford almost matches Michigan in the total number of matriculants in T14 law schools. As you point out, it is important to compare the number of law school matriculants from a particular school. Michigan and Stanford have among the lowest rates of prelaw students among elite universities. For example, ~25% of Duke, Emory, Georgetown, Harvard and Yale undergrads are prelaw as opposed to ~15% at Michigan and Stanford.</p>
<p>As for Harvard Law, here’s how Michigan and Stanford compare:</p>
<p>Stanford:
141 applied (average 3.65 GPA, 167 LSAT)
35 (25%) admitted (average 3.87 GPA, 173 LSAT)</p>
<p>Michigan:
111 applied (N/A)
14 (13%) admitted (average 3.93 GPA, 172 LSAT)</p>
<p>Did the OP say he/she was interesting in law? I don’t understand how this debate has developed, although I skipped over several posts. In any event, I think undergrad school prestige is way overblown when it comes to law school admissions, especially when you’re talking about a school the caliber of Michigan. Of course Princeton would have a higher per capita acceptance rate to top law schools than Michigan - the average Princeton student has a lot higher credentials than the average Michigan student. The question to ask is if the same student (who is very high achieving) has the choice between Princeton and Michigan, will it make an appreciable difference in his/her law school admissions? I think the answer to that is a big fat no. </p>
<p>Somebody choosing Michigan over a school like Princeton will likely perform very well at Michigan and do well on the LSAT and get admitted to a top notch law/med/MBA/grad school. Law schools care about GPA/LSAT so I could even argue it’s better to go to a supposedly “worse” school where you can perhaps outshine your peers and perform really well. From anecdotal experience, I know of an Ivy-caliber student who actually didn’t get admitted to his top choices in and chose Michigan and the honors program. Probably ended up doing better at Michigan than he would have at Columbia and ended up at Stanford law.</p>
<p>Having said all the above, I would chose Princeton over Michigan all else being equal. But choosing Michigan won’t severely handicap your future prospects. Like most threads on this site, it is usually overblown as to how choosing one school over another will have a tremendous impact on your future. Princeton alumni are successful because they are driven and smart individuals. Going to Princeton certainly doesn’t hurt, but by and large those people would have been equally successful if they chose to go elsewhere simply based on their qualities.</p>
<p>Yikes, this got out of hand. This thread has gone way off the reservation and I doubt it is actually of any value to the OP. However, I cannot help but wonder why Golden so regularly attacks UMich, both in the general forum and the UMich forum. He (she?) has opinions about school rank and qualitythat’s fine. But to so aggressively assert them on EVERYONE else, including the people who go to that school, is very diagnostic. And to make such offensive, derogatory statements about a school and the students that attend it is also inappropriate and childish. You may try to frame your venomous statements as “just stating facts” or “trying to help the OP.” But one thing is very clear from your consistent attacks: of all the things you learned at Duke, maturity and class didn’t make the cut.</p>
<p>
Alexandre, as someone who has extensively researched law schools and has been personally invested in the application process, I can tell you that you are wrong here. It takes someone who has first-hand experience to truly realize that Legal Scholars and Judges/Lawyers don’t have an accurate gauge on the current pecking order of legal education here in the United States. In the minds of these old farts, Michigan is living off the residue of decades past when it was a top 3 law schools Its current Big Law placement and Clerkship production doesn’t reflect the standing of a top 6 school at all. Penn’s probably the closest law school to making the jump if any of them are going to do it.</p>
<p>The T6 schools are Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago, and NYU. Here are numerous links confirming the existence of this tier:</p>
<p>[Northwestern</a> Law School: Why should you go?](<a href=“http://www.law-school-hacker.com/northwestern-law-school.html]Northwestern”>Northwestern Law School: Should you go?)</p>
<p>◦BUT: It is a lower-T14 school, meaning that if you get into a top-6 law school (Yale, Harvard, Stanford, Columbia, Chicago or NYU) you should absolutely go to one of those places instead UNLESS none of the T6 offers you money and Northwestern offers you a full tuition scholarship.</p>
<p>[Top</a> 6 vs. money](<a href=“TestMasters LSAT Prep Course | Live and Online Classes”>TestMasters LSAT Prep Course | Live and Online Classes)
[Top</a> 10% at T6 to HY?](<a href=“TestMasters LSAT Prep Course | Live and Online Classes”>TestMasters LSAT Prep Course | Live and Online Classes)
[Top</a> 6 vs. money](<a href=“TestMasters LSAT Prep Course | Live and Online Classes”>TestMasters LSAT Prep Course | Live and Online Classes)</p>
<p>[Patent</a> Examiner or T6?](<a href=“Patent Examiner or T6?”>Patent Examiner or T6?)</p>
<p>*Hi All,</p>
<p>I Just got offered a GS-7 patent examiner position with the USPTO. I have also been admitted to a T6 law school. I would eventually like to practice in patent law and have no full time work experience. I was thinking about deferring my admission to the school (my absolute dream school) and working for the PTO. Any thoughts on what I should do?*</p>
<p>The T6 is a very well known and identifiable term in the legal world.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>The so-called t6 for law school isn’t really universally accepted. As far as I know, there’s only a 2 (YH) or t3 (YHS) or t14. Then all the rest are regionally biased law schools. For example, NYU Law isn’t really regarded superior to Berkeley Law in the West Coast. In fact, many students at Berkeley Law have also been admitted to NYU Law. And NYU isn’t really regarded superior to Northwestern Law in the NE. The only nationally well-recognized law schools are Harvard, Yale, and to some extent, Stanford.</p>
<p>How did this thread turn into “which school is better for pre-law?” when the OP wants to major in chemical engineering with a side interest in materials science and engineering?</p>
<p>Of course, there is also the wrinkle that law school is expensive, and the $100,000 difference for the OP would pay for a large part of law school.</p>
<p>On topic: If the OP can afford Princeton, then it is a clear best choice here. But if Michigan can throw in money and would come out substantially cheaper for the OP, then Michigan would be the logical and practical choice here.</p>