<p>In the immortal words of Russell Peter, white people need to beat their children more.</p>
<p>"Bunch of cry babies hahaha</p>
<p>If U.S was in 1st place in every subject they would be all ‘YEAH MURRIKA IS NUMBER 1 GOD BLESS MURRIKA’"</p>
<p>I would ask you to cite whatever great nation you hail from, but my argument from that point on would dissolve into a bunch of quasi-offensive racist slurs. I hope a bald eagle pecks your face off.</p>
<p>GOD BLESS MURRIKA INDEED! USA! USA! USA!</p>
<p>It is very interesting and very telling to read this entire thread. A majority of the opinions and comments are either 1) Our education stinks and the sky is falling or 2) The tests are flawed and we are still #1. It is very similar to our political woes in which there are so few politicians willing to be moderates in their party. In any event why do the results of this testing outcome have to mean our system stinks or theirs does. I think what it means is we can all learn from each other. I think these results should be used to have the world move towards what works in education so we can all develop systems that educate the worlds children to be smart in ways that they need to be smart for their future. We need to make changes and improvements to our education system but so do they. In the US we need to make sure our children see the value in education (Plus other changes to insure that all children are pushed to learn) and THEY need to make sure that their children understand the concepts that they are applying very mechanically to increase innovation.
One other very important point that the US needs to address to increase the value placed on education is that in the US value is always assessed in dollars. For example many highly talented people do not go into the field of education (please do not nail me to the wall on this I am not saying I don’t think teachers are intelligent but when was the last time you saw a valedictorian say they wanted to be a teacher) because the monetary payback is not there. We have an Advanced Placement teacher at our school (Very highly educated) tell the class that it does not “pay” to go to college. That they should not go, that they should start their own business they will make more money. That is where our system is broken. Our youth see too many uneducated people making a lot of money without an education. Whether it is actors, musicians, sports stars or uneducated tradesmen charging hourly rates that rival what doctors make, it looks like easy money to young children.
Our economic “scale” is off and if we fix it and make some changes to education we will prevail. Let’s hope we adjust because in reality that is what we have always been number 1 at, adjusting.</p>
<p>PS… The teacher I spoke of is actually one of our best! Maybe Finland is on to something!
There focus seems to be in teacher quality and prestige.</p>
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<p>I didn’t mean to be disrespectful though I don’t think too highly of US K-12 system. Colleges are (partly) different story. And I would have preferred to educate my children elsewhere or enrol them to international school here. But international school is not option in this area and we are economically very generously compensated for spending few years here. Of course it is our own choice and we were prepared for other inconveniences (for example long hours, little free time for my husband, career break for me, nightmare bureaucracy, old fashion and impractical bank services for public, having to spend enormous time driving a car, bad public transportation etc.) but some problems with schooling our children have been surprises. Still living here few years is an experience we will probably some day fondly look back. But it doesn’t mean we have to adore everything here. By the way neither I expect people moving to my native country to love everything about it. </p>
<p>Every country and culture has good and bad points and people also like different things. But it is very simple minded to expect that everyone moving to some country should wholeheartedly love everything about it. And in nowadays global economy there are more and more people (temporarily) moving to USA (and also to other countries) who are not fulfilling some big immigrant dream by doing so but just taking a benefit of a nice job offer or other opportunity.</p>
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What in the world are you talking about? I do my banking entirely on line and use cards to pay for everything. What is so old fashioned about that? I don’t think I’ve stepped into a bank in at least two years.</p>
<p>Rituna…If you don’t like our K-12 education than how do you have faith in our colleges? Our colleges are filled with kids who went through the K-12 public education.</p>
<p>In the United States we educate ALL students unlike many countries who only permit the top children to continue on. If you understand statistics you will understand why we score lower on these types of exams. Education for all is a policy that most Americans are deeply grateful for even if it does cast a cloud over us in the statistics. The benefits out weigh the negatives.</p>
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<p>Yes, it is finally getting little bit better. But people are still even writing checks. I mean before coming here I had last time seen a check at eighties…</p>
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<p>I have faith for the top US colleges (meaning here about top 10 % of colleges), not so much to lower ranked ones. And they are so selective that they can choose only those who have survived well from their K-12 experience. In any kind of system very top students can always make it. It is an average who suffer. </p>
<p>And don’t let yourself be fooled by ‘we educate all.’ So do the most of the top performers of the study. Some countries have little bit less mandatory school years but the study is made with 15 year-olds (if I remember correctly) and all of them are still at school at most of the countries. Of course if you want to compare yourself to poorest countries at the world it is a different matter. But those who do better in these studies are also the ones who do in fact educate all their kids. And even though for example Finland has only 9 grades of compulsory education, bigger per cent of kids in fact do complete 12 years of schooling than in the US.</p>
<p>Its unfortunate that the discussion has denigrated into infantile attacks on America and knee jerk responses that skew the debate from one on the plight of US educational standards to a shouting match over American perceived greatness…Can’t there be a rational debate in America that doesn’t dissolve into:
America as the root of all evil vs You are either with us or against us, if you don’t like it just go back to where you came from?</p>
<p>To those who have nothing constructive to say but anti-US whining and complaining…you only succeed in showing your lack of analysis and inability to cobble together even a shadow of a coherent critique.</p>
<p>But to those who find their solace in simply wishing away the statistics I would remind you that these tests are administered and the statistics complied by the OECD representing the countries with the highest levels of economic development and the highest scores on the Human Development Index. These are not figures pulled out of a hat by some quasi-egalitarian, anti-American NGO or the results of a UN commission hijacked by anti US sentiment…</p>
<p>The OECD is the ‘rich club’ of the world and the results that have been posted now, in late 2010, are the results of a test given over a year ago, which means the analysis and compilation of these results have been a year in the making. The statistical analysis, sampling, weighting, and scaling that has been utilised is designed specifically to address the issues that many here feel make it impossible to compare between the countries and their educational systems.</p>
<p>So when a contributor writes:</p>
<p>“If you understand statistics you will understand why we score lower on these types of exams”</p>
<p>…I’m afraid its such contributors who perhaps don’t fully grasp the complexity of statistical analysis. Because No. in the final analysis American students do not score lower due to the quirks of the statistical model but due to their lack of ability when compared to their peers in the developed world.</p>
<p>Now shouldn’t the debate be about what the possible implications of these figures and what, if anything, American society is going to do to address the issues?</p>
<p>Mamalumper, count me in the majority who believe that our pre-college education is appreciably less rigorous (for most students) than it is in many countries. Also, count me among those who believe that the tests are, in part, reflecting this. Yet, count me among those who think this is no big deal. We have a different educational model from the one in other countries. Forty years ago, I was told by an official from the National Science Foundation that students in Japan were significantly ahead of US students at the point of starting college, but that American students worked harder in college and caught up. The NSF official’s comment might have been slightly jingoistic, but by the time American-born, American-educated scientists receive Ph.D.'s they are the equals of those anywhere else. And personally, I preferred being taught multi-variable calculus by a mathematician, E&M by a physicist, and thermodynamics by a physical chemist, rather than by (most) high school teachers. </p>
<p>Also, count me among those who view the Rasch version of item response theory as junk, to be blunt. It requires that the testing data fit the assumed statistical model, rather than trying to find a model that actually fits the data.</p>
<p>This is a new idea for this discussion: perhaps American students do worse because of a flawed higher education system as well as due to problems in primary education and high school. Students are not going to be very motivated to perform well if college is anyway not affordable for them, and if the inflation-adjusted cost of college keeps on increasing. It also doesn’t help to have a nebulous college admissions process and the complexity of the financial aid process.</p>
<p>In contrast, higher education is much cheaper in other nations. I’ll admit this is because of government-subsidized education, but it doesn’t turn away students from academics simply because they are intimidated by the cost. I know there are many regional quirks, but most other nations have pretty unambiguous admissions processes based on a national high school final exams instead of a “whole person” process that takes into account your musical and sports aptitude, race, and probably also your ability to pay and legacy status. The test-based admissions help motivate students to do well on the “big test”, although this may not be the best way to choose students.</p>
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<p>With but a few quippy and immature comments aside, this thread has mostly been focused on examining issues that should be of serious concern to American citizens, permanent residents, and anyone interested in the fate of America.</p>
<p>The kind of xenophobic “everything’s fine here at the white house” attitude expressed in the last sentence of your comment is precisely why Americans are fodder for occasional derision, and more gravely, espouses an attitude that ensures the country will not likely be able to examine itself with sufficient honestly to address its shortcomings.</p>
<p>For a country invented by immigrants, it is astonishing how quick some Americans are to tell folks to “go home” for the sin of exercising the constitutionally entrenched freedom of speech that is so cherished here.</p>
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<p>rotfl</p>
<p>Only problem, SuperGenericMan (like your screen name), is that white people may be most in need of this, but increasingly so, this is true of South Asians and East Asians who are growing up here, not “there” 
I know, because my students’ parents come in to complain to me, often, about their academically undisciplined students. (No, not the A students who are “lazy,” the B and C students who clearly could be A students.)</p>
<p>Momma-three (or any others), could you point out to me where I am “disrespectful of America”? I am disrespectful of mediocrity and unprofessionalism in my own profession. I get to do that, just like doctors, realtors, coaches, actors, others get to complain about standards and practices in their various occupations. And I have complained often about my profession on this board, over 6 years, because there is genuinely a lot, in my view, to correct. </p>
<p>I will admit that my earlier post tried to shed some national perspective on the decline in a work ethic, which can be demonstrated to have infected the classroom: in leadership, in response, and in student behavior/avoidance. It was not my intent to be unpatriotic. I think it is a patriotic impulse to strive for excellence in whatever profession one has, but certainly education would be at the forefront of citizen formation and national achievement, no?</p>
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<p>I completely agree with the statement. </p>
<p>But what percentage of Ph.D. granted in math, physical sciences, and engineering by U.S. universities are “American-born, American-educated” today? I don’t have the numbers in hand right now, but I believe the number has been steadily dropping since the 1980s. Maybe it does not really matter if we can continually attract the best and the brightest from other countries. But it is very difficult to argue that the math and science education in our elementary and secondary schools does not lag badly behind some other countries. And this is not a new discovery, in their book “The learning gap: Why our schools are failing and what we can learn from Japanese and Chinese education”, Stevenson and Stigler observed in 1992:
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<p>I don’t believe that the situation has changed for the better over the last 18 years.</p>
<p>P.S. Just to be clear, this is my home country. I am not an immigrant. That belonged to my maternal grandmother from Eastern Europe and my great-grandfather from Ireland . ;)</p>
<p>EDITING:
(Because I cross-posted with NCL). No single nation or continent has a perfect system. The Chinese, for example, (at least their educators) will be the first to admit that their own focus could benefit from Western approaches to learning, and they did so recently. What I am tired of myself in my profession is the pendulum (reactionary) approach. There is no question that we would benefit from reincorporating some of the standards in mastery that have always characterized Eastern educational goals & methodologies. But no single country has “all the answers.” Probably NCL did not mean that, but plenty of CC parents have, over time, narrowly championed a particular country’s approach as singularly superior. </p>
<p>Education has to consider culture in its delivery, and to compute that into the equation.</p>
<p>"Nevertheless, I see no reason why the “Southerners are stupid” stereotype needs to continue, nor why deficiencies in any state which might further this stereotype should be tolerated in this day and age. "</p>
<p>The reason we need to examine it is to determine the proper remedies, if remedies are possible.</p>
<p>If someone says US test scores lag because of “X” (where X is anything from teachers unions, to progressive curricula, to whatever) and we find that Minnesota has “x” but Minnesota test scores do NOT lag, then we need to question if it really is X causing scores to lag. It may be that getting rid of X is a bad idea, or that X should be gotten rid of only in the South, where it conflicts with some aspect of regional culture. </p>
<p>It is also interesting that Finland, with apparently very different educational approaches from those found in east asia, does very well. </p>
<p>See my concern is that this becomes the basis for a ‘beat the kids’ recommendation. Not literally, (I hope) but more focus on rewards and punishments, esp punishments, more tedious homework, more focus on testing, etc, etc. Which MAY be a good idea for some kids. But would be a disaster for many others. Though there is clearly a large number of people with a taste for those kinds of options, more out of ideology than out of empirical support, though I think they will take results like this as being empirical support.</p>
<p>“Secondly…Sure there are many more placements than 50 years ago at Ivy League Schools (and US universities in general)”</p>
<p>the question of placements at Ivies is profoundly different from universities in general. I doubt the Ivies will increase their enrollment significantly if at all. They have not, AFAIK, done so recently, and that is a large factor in why it has become increasingly difficult to get in with any given set of stats. </p>
<p>Whether they will increase the number of foreign students greatly is up to them. Given their historic concerns with diversity, with their role in society, etc, I doubt they will go above a certain number. But suppose they did. That would mean fewer places at IVIES for Americans. Does that matter? As we have discussed ad nauseum in CC, students can get a perfectly good education at a less prestigious school. And its not like the Ivies have a monopoly on “ivy style” elite education either. In large measure the rise of the “new ivies” over the last couple of decades has been a result of the lack of expansion at the Ivies. We cant increase the number of Ivy slots, but we can convert what were historically second tier schools into something more like what the ivies used to be. If you think that hasnt been among the strategic goals at places like Duke, Rice, CMU, etc (and so on further down as well) I suspect you are mistaken.</p>
<p>And of course there is no limit to the number of generic, non-elite university slots.</p>
<p>Re:#118
By no means I believe that U.S. should adopt a Chinese system for college admission (which results in this zeal for test prep). As epiphany pointed out, many Chinese parents and educators abhor the Chinese system and prefer a quick shift towards the U.S. system (without knowing some of its flaws), and some incremental movements have been made in that direction recently with mixed (but mostly negative) reviews.</p>
<p>But one only needs a quick glance of the Chinese math curriculum to see how far our students lag behind the Chinese kids in math.</p>
<p>" There is no question that we would benefit from reincorporating some of the standards in mastery that have always characterized Eastern educational goals & methodologies"</p>
<p>Isn’t that what we have been doing since NCLB was passed? Has it been working?</p>
<p>Table 6. Average scores of U.S. 15-year-old students on
combined reading literacy scale, by percentage
of students in public school eligible for free or
reduced-price lunch: 2009
Percent of students eligible
for free or reduced-price lunch
U.S. average – 500
Less than 10 percent – 551
10 to 24.9 percent – 527
25 to 49.9 percent – 502
50 to 74.9 percent – 471
75 percent or more–446
OECD average – 493
<a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004.pdf[/url]”>http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2011/2011004.pdf</a></p>
<p>We don’t have an education problem. We have a poverty problem.</p>