<p>or at least, its hard to tell how much of our educational problem would remain if we solved our poverty problem. Or how much our poverty problem would hold back our test scores, even if we did everything right on education.</p>
<p>Again, I think in this regard the differences among states within the US is illuminating.</p>
<p>I totally agree with Garland that we have a poverty problem that is contributing to our educational problem in addition to year over year public schools are suppose to achieve more with less resources.</p>
<p>One of the things that they talked about on the news the other night when talking about the test scores of the children in Shanghi, is the pressure that yound children feel to perform, the extended school day and the large number of students that are attending 'cram school" on the weekend.</p>
<p>The one thing that the US does is provide a free public school education to any and all children who enter their schools, whether or not they are citizens or permanent residents of the country. How many other countries provide a free education to students who are not citizens/ permanent residents of their country?</p>
<p>Sudent comes in to public school, not speaking a word of english, school is required to provide ESL (or free standing ESL) or if there are 20 students that speak the same language in the school, must offer dual language/bilingual education (whether or not it has the funds or resources to do so). Public schools cannot turn students way and say, we cannot accomodate you here. </p>
<p>Sometimes it is like a two-edge sword, because the same students that lack proficiency in English, who may not be able to graduate with the cohort, or pass the state test are counted and results are charged to the school, which is dinged because of the results. Sometimes it is like no good deed goes unpunished.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Not in my State. Perhaps in yours. Or in some cases, mastery goals have not been married with effective strategies to get there. And certainly nothing systematic. What characterizes some of the Eastern models is coherence and consistency, with curriculum integrated and coordinated by level. That is the last thing that can be said about our math teaching in particular in our country – certainly in my state. Our math curricula, plural, is quixotic and forever experimental, lacking a rudder.</p>
<p>NCL is correct in this observation:
</p>
<p>Brooklynborndad</p>
<p>I’m should not have written in a way which made it seem like I was restricting my view to the Ivy Leagues, I didn’t mean to…
When you write: “…fewer places at IVIES for Americans. Does that matter?”…Well all things being equal, it doesn’t. </p>
<p>But as you duly noted the quality of education provision at the second tier elites like Duke, Rice, etc still provide an elite and top class education… do you think that after the Ivies have taken their fill of foreign students that these universities will be any less attractive to foreign candidates?</p>
<p>If US academic skills continue to decline in relation to the increasing pool of prospective foreign candidates, what happens?</p>
<p>I would have to make the point that the idea that there is no limit to the amount of slots that generic or non elite colleges is unrealistic and unacceptable…
If such US colleges simply increase the intake to meet the ‘local’ demand, you run into a series of issues…
Where will you find the professors and lecturers to teach all these extra students?
With such human resource limitations you end up with class size being the obvious solution so will regular class sizes of 150, 200, 250 increase or decrease the quality of the education US students receive?</p>
<p>It can only result in a ‘dumbing down’ of the local college grad population and a decrease in the perceived value of their degrees.</p>
<p>Will parents accept that the best their children can reasonable expect is a less attractive degree from an overcrowded non-elite university because top flight students from a range of other countries have managed to snap up the best degrees at the best universities due to their better academic performance?</p>
<p>Will parents demand a cap on foreign student intakes and distort the market in college education? Or perhaps demand an affirmative action program for US students be instigated because of the inability of the average US student to compete with his ‘average’ foreign counterpart?</p>
<p>Realistically there is a finite limit to the amount of university slots available across the spectrum of US universities and as long as US colleges remain the top destination for foreign students, and as long as there is an open global market in college education, American parents better come to grips with fact that their children must increasingly compete, not just with the local talent, but with an ever increasing pool of highly skilled, highly motivated overseas talent as well.</p>
<p>Options?
Increase US student skills now.
or
Accept an inevitable slide towards second class status in your own college educational system.</p>
<p>In my state (the Comm of Virginia) there has been intense focus on our standardized tests, the SOLs (standards of learning) for some years. Since our DD entered the public school system at any rate (which 8 years ago, as a fifth grader). </p>
<p>“certainly in my state. Our math curricula, plural, is quixotic and forever experimental, lacking a rudder.”</p>
<p>I am not aware off the top of my head of anything particulary experimental that the Commonwealth, or Fairfax County, do in teaching math.</p>
<p>“Where will you find the professors and lecturers to teach all these extra students?”</p>
<p>From the gads of Phd’s who go into other fields. Alternatively we can increase the size of Phd programs.</p>
<p>How do you think we got the teachers for the increase in college enrollments in the last 50 years?</p>
<p>How do you think a country like China or India manages to increase their domestic enrollments? </p>
<p>In general when industries face an increase in demand, they increase capacity. I do not understand why you think higher ed is uniquely unable to. </p>
<p>If more foreigners want to attend US colleges, thats an export industry for us. It no more means we won’t be able to educate our own kids, than China buying airplanes from Boeing means we wont have airplanes available for US airlines.</p>
<p>another point. </p>
<p>Folks have mentions asians flocking to US colleges.</p>
<p>From what I understand east asians (and other foreigners) also flock to US prep schools. Not just the top name ones, either. That appears inconsistent to me with the overwhelming superiority of east asian secondary education.</p>
<p>Now it could be that these prep schools are vastly, overwhelmingly superior to US public schools. In fact, for at least some schools I know about, that really isnt the case. I mean the lifestyle is pretty nice, but the math education does not appear that particularly rigorous (note - I have spent the last 4 years in a bubble, as my DD attended a sci-tech magnet). </p>
<p>It could also be that the east asians want US prep schools just to increase their odds of getting in to a US college. Still, if their k-12 education is so superior, that seems like a questionable trade off.</p>
<p>“Will parents accept that the best their children can reasonable expect is a less attractive degree from an overcrowded non-elite university because top flight students from a range of other countries have managed to snap up the best degrees at the best universities due to their better academic performance”</p>
<p>I attended an Ivy League university, back in the good old days when it was SOMEWHAT easier to get into. My DD was rejected at the only Ivy she applied to, in large part (I believe) because of the increased competitiveness of admissions, which in turn is at least in part due to the increasing number of international students. She was, however, accepted by three EXCELLENT univerities, one of which is on the Newsweek list of new Ivies, and the other two are similar in their USNWR rankings. She will be attending the one that happens to be a “New Ivy”. RPI. She is not disappointed with where she is going, and neither am I.</p>
<p>There is a large section of the public education ssytem which vastly underperforms. If you look at the non urban schools, the USA has outstanding scores. You don’t hear this much,however, the fact remains that US students from outside inner city district are doing fine. Blame teacher unions, Students and parents but they do not get the same education that many in the US recieve.</p>
<p>another perspective</p>
<p>[High</a> Test Rankings Mask China Education System’s Underlying Problems - ABC News](<a href=“High Test Scores, but China Education Flawed - ABC News”>High Test Scores, but China Education Flawed - ABC News)</p>
<p>Sybbie719</p>
<p>When you as how many countries provide free public education to non citizens and non permanent residents?</p>
<p>Of the current OECD list of 34 countries (which made up the student sample for the PISA results we are discussing) all of them provide free public education to all…
(Except China, this is their first year in the PISA and perhaps Chile who is the only ‘developing’ nation in the OECD).</p>
<p>The ‘poverty card’ is like the ‘diversity card’ inasmuch as while there maybe a negative impact on test scores it is no more than in most other OECD countries.
All OECD countries have persistent poverty areas which affect their results.
All OECD countries have migrant, itinerant, minority, and immigration demographic concerns which can impact their results.</p>
<p>And besides, the impact of such concerns in duly weighted and scaled when the PISA statistics are compiled. </p>
<p>The US is not operating at a disadvantage vis-a-vis the other PISA test countries.
All have free public education for all.
All have poverty factors impacting their educational standards
All have negative demographic factors with which to contend</p>
<p>Which while both affect the educational performance within the PISA test,
Does not affect the statistical results of the test.</p>
<p>"The ‘poverty card’ is like the ‘diversity card’ inasmuch as while there maybe a negative impact on test scores it is no more than in most other OECD countries.
All OECD countries have persistent poverty areas which affect their results. "</p>
<p>Data? I don’t think its the case that the other OECD countries are comparable to the US in terms of income inequality, the existence of a semi permanent underclass, etc.</p>
<p>"And besides, the impact of such concerns in duly weighted and scaled when the PISA statistics are compiled. "</p>
<p>Where is there evidence that they weigh and scale for poverty?</p>
<p>“The ‘poverty card’ is like the ‘diversity card’ inasmuch as while there maybe a negative impact on test scores it is no more than in most other OECD countries”</p>
<p>In fact poverty and income inequality are both significantly higher in the US than in other OECD countries.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,en_2649_33933_45043394_1_1_1_1,00.html[/url]”>http://www.oecd.org/document/2/0,3343,en_2649_33933_45043394_1_1_1_1,00.html</a></p>
<p>Brooklynborndad.</p>
<p>I’m glad your D made a ‘New Ivy’…but that is now.
I am making the case for 20 years time when these ‘new’ elite universities will be as popular with foreign students as the Ivies are now.
What if D had have missed the Ivy AND her second tier choices due to the pressures that an increased foreign intake has produced?</p>
<p>…and to address your points in order:</p>
<p>From the gads of Phd’s who go into other fields. Alternatively we can increase the size of Phd programs…
Ok increasing the size of the PhD programs does not mean the program will be subscribed by local talent if they can’t compete…
And as someone who has taught at university I can safely say that having a PhD does not make you a teaching professional, even at college level. Teaching is a passion and you either enjoy it or you don’t, and if you don’t then your knowledge doesn’t matter because if you can’t successfully instil it in the students you have failed…Having the gads of PhD’s teaching when they want to be research academics, or follow a non academic professional career path is a recipe for failure on a grand scale </p>
<p>How do you think we got the teachers for the increase in college enrollments in the last 50 years?..
You are talking about a 50 year steady evolution, I’m talking about a 50% increase EVERY year from now on from China alone, not to mention all the other foreign candidates countries…50 year solutions are a luxury the US does not have in this case.</p>
<p>How do you think a country like China or India manages to increase their domestic enrolments?
Exactly in the way you stated… and its part of the reason the best of the Chinese and Indian students choose to leave and pursue a college education in the US instead of pursuing a degree at home.</p>
<p>“In fact poverty and income inequality are both significantly higher in the US than in other OECD countries.”</p>
<p>…and the PISA test scores are weighted and scaled accordingly to provide a statically accurate result thus the PISA results stand regardless of poverty, diversity, or any other quantifiable and measurable factor that is being raised on the forum as a ‘defence’, a ‘reasoning’ or a simple excuse for the results of US students.</p>
<p>"Having the gads of PhD’s teaching when they want to be research academics, "</p>
<p>if you feel THAT way, I am not quite sure why you are so enamored of the Ivies ;)</p>
<p>Seriously, I am pretty sure there are folks who would love to teach, but either cannot find a university position, or the university positions available are at schools where the students are such as to disillusion many would be good teachers. If yesterdays Ivy students, todays new ivy students, turn up tomorrow at second tier publics, I suspect those second tier publics will become interesting enough places to teach to entice some folks from industry back to academia. </p>
<p>"and its part of the reason the best of the Chinese and Indian students choose to leave and pursue a college education in the US instead of pursuing a degree at home. "</p>
<p>I am not sure thats 100% the case. </p>
<p>“I’m talking about a 50% increase EVERY year from now on from China alone”</p>
<p>Data? How many people are there from China who can afford a private US tuition, AND are as supremely qualified as you state, AND want to be in the US for college.</p>
<p>This strikes me as unrealistic straight line extrapolation.</p>
<p>"and the PISA test scores are weighted and scaled accordingly to provide a statically accurate result thus the PISA results stand regardless of poverty, "</p>
<p>Could you please point me to the part of the website where they discuss the methodology for weighting and scaling to adjust for levels of poverty? </p>
<p>I can’t seem to find it.</p>
<p>Look at the American kids scoring in the 80% or 90% and measure their scores against the Asian kids who are permitted to continue on in their education. You would probably have a more accurate picture of what is going on regarding math knowledge and general skills. Asian countries do not educate the students that we educate in the U.S.A so in fact any statistic that does not take that into account is just not portraying the picture clearly. Of course I just used the 80% and 90% but I am sure if we were able to exclude all of the children who are very poor, those who don’t care about education, have learning disabilities, ADHD affecting the learning and the numerous other disabilties that effect test scores we would be alot closer to the Chinese stardard of excellence than many would like to think. In China how many of the above mentioned kids are still attending school through grade 12? </p>
<p>As I said before why are so many foreign students flocking to our GREAT universities if our system of education here in America is so bad? Our universities are educating the same kids that went through the K-12 system, including the finest universities in our country.</p>
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</p>
<p>But the “kids” teaching the classes at those colleges are many years removed from the K-12 system, assuming they’re even from this country.</p>
<p>The 50% year on year increase over the past 5 years is a direct quote from China Daily
[Chinese</a> flock to US for further education](<a href=“http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2010-11/17/content_11562239.htm]Chinese”>http://www2.chinadaily.com.cn/business/2010-11/17/content_11562239.htm)</p>
<p>Again the China Daily…rates of placements and rates of students returning to China after oversea study is increasing…
[44,000</a> overseas Chinese students return home in 2007](<a href=“China Daily Website - Connecting China Connecting the World”>http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2008-04/06/content_6594239.htm)</p>
<p>I’ll try and dig up the figures later but I don’t think its irresponsible to extrapolate that over the next 20 years, with current rates of economic growth in China and India that even if only 0.25% of the top Chinese and Indian high school graduates were to enrol in US universities EVERY year (this is a cumulative problem remember) it will create enormous competitive pressure for university placements… Taking into account how many high school students graduate every year as a percentage from a combined population of 2.4 billion people, both with demographic trends which will result in younger populations than the US demographic for at least the next 20 years…American students need to start holding their own.</p>