<p>I was accepted to Cal and MIT. I'm going to major in mechanical engineering. I'm very low-income and I'll probably get a full ride from both colleges, so money is not a factor. Which one should I pick? I'm from Berkeley (the city), and I'm planning to visit MIT. I "click" with Cal, but I don't know about MIT since I've never been there before. What do you guys think are the pros and cons of each school?</p>
<p>Congrats on getting into these two amazing schools! It is a remarkable accomplishment to get into MIT. Since you wish to pursue engineering, MIT wins. UCB is also top notch in engineering, but MIT is the best of the best. Most others who are fortunate enough to be in your shoes would pick MIT over UCB. Again, congrats.</p>
<p>Thanks, but I'm looking for other factors. Education is big, but atmosphere is important too. Any tidbits about the social scene, the kind of people, etc would be greatly appreciated.</p>
<p>In terms of quality of engineering, the difference between the two is negligible. Berkeley's usually ranked 2nd, right behind MIT, along with Stanford.</p>
<p>The fact that most others would choose MIT doesn't mean that you should -- make your decision based on your own preferences.</p>
<p>On that note, it really comes down to fit. Do you want to stay in Berkeley for college? Here is a list of things to consider when making a decision:</p>
<p>Faculty
Students
Facilities
Programs
Degrees
Courses
Library
Prestige
History
Events
Student life
Housing
Location/area (nature, etc.)
Places to go (botanical gardens, etc.)
Sports/athletics
Cost/financial aid
Organizations/activities
Structure (semester/quarter, colleges/schools, etc.)
Campus (architecture, size, etc.)
Admissions
Alumni
Post-grad placement – grad school + jobs
Traditions
Greek life
Accomplishments of the university
Dining
Weather
Diversity – ethnic, cultural, sexual, religious, geographic, political
Safety/security
Campus culture (strictness, parties, gay friendliness, jocks vs. nerds, intellectual, competitive, etc.)
Politics
Parking
Transportation</p>
<p>Well ucb is huge. Also not everyone there is gonna be geniuses at math +science unlike MIT (bascially at MIT you prolly gonna meet more people who are like minded to you), so if that matters to you. Also i heard its hard to get classes at ucb cos spots get filled, so MIT seems better.I visited MIT, its a good place. I am sure though that UCB is also a great place.</p>
<p>If you live in Berkeley already it may make sense to commute and save all the money on a dorm and mooch off your parents.</p>
<p>But it also limits your independence, and if you're like me who really wants to get the hell out, Berkeley wouldn't be the best choice. </p>
<p>Academics you'll be fine either way. </p>
<p>Congratulations on getting in!</p>
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Well ucb is huge. Also not everyone there is gonna be geniuses at math +science unlike MIT (bascially at MIT you prolly gonna meet more people who are like minded to you), so if that matters to you. Also i heard its hard to get classes at ucb cos spots get filled, so MIT seems better.I visited MIT, its a good place. I am sure though that UCB is also a great place.
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<p>Well, really, class sizes are going to be very comparable. 61% of the classes at Berkeley and MIT are under 20; 14% of the classes at Berkeley and MIT are over 50. (Weird that they'd be the same, no?)</p>
<p>I agree with LostSymphonies, really. If I lived in Berkeley, I'd choose MIT, no problem. But since I have never lived in either place, nor anywhere near them, I personally would choose Berkeley, given that financial aid were equal. Again, though, it comes down to fit. I would suggest you make a table based on the list above and make checks for MIT or for Berkeley on each item. If you're not sure about something, look it up, research it, even ask about it on the respective college forums here.</p>
<p>oh wow. That is weird. My friend said one of the main reason he did not apply to ucb was cos of the class size factor. Wow, if he had known that, he could be potentially going to ucb. Dang</p>
<p>Although I don't have personal affiliation with either MIT or Berkeley, I heard from a MIT student, who graduated from my h.s. 2 yrs earlier than I did, that MIT's social scene is unique in the sense that almost everyone there is incredibly gifted in math and sciences and MIT does an excellent job of admitting only highly qualified students. So, it is highly likely that you will encounter other brilliant students there. UCB, on the other hand, is a state school, thus it has to admit many in-state residents who may not be the most qualifed applicants. Even if UCB's engineering faculty and the education it provides you is going to be top notch, the student body, on average, is not as strong as MIT's. This means that there are going to be very gifted students and some mediocre students as well at UCB.</p>
<p>The pro side going for UCB in social aspects is obviously going to be diversity. UCB is much larger and is not entirely focused solely on engineering as MIT is. Therefore, you will meet many people with different academic and personal interests. </p>
<p>The con side of UCB is that about 90% of the students are from in-state, thus lacking in geographical diversity. MIT attracts students from all over the world. Also, UCB is predominantly made up of two ethnicities - Asians and Caucasians. It probably doesn't have as much ethnic diversity in proportion compared to a private school like MIT.</p>
<p>Lastly, the atmosphere at MIT, as I heard, is intense academically due to a bunch of brilliant people living together and the school's rigorous courses. The atmosphere at Berkeley isn't necessarily academically intense or elitist like MIT.</p>
<p>I'm not planning on staying at home if I go to Cal because I need to get the hell away from my parents.</p>
<p>Also, I'm pretty used to a large school. My high school has 4000 students (that's what it gets for being the only public high school in Berkeley). I like having a lot of people around. And it's probably true that most MIT-ers are geniuses, but I'm not a genius. I know my stuff, but I'm not math olympiad good (not even AMC-good), so I'll probably feel like an idiot at MIT. Frankly, I don't even know how I got in. Does anyone know if MIT has good programs in non-math-and-science disciplines? I'm interested in expanding my horizons in other fields.</p>
<p>I only know that MIT has good math and science programs.</p>
<p>If I were you, I would attend MIT. I alomst applied to CalTech and MIT, but I did not feel like I would be accepted to them based on my SAT math 2 and science subject test scores.</p>
<p>However, you would save money by attending Berkeley. Just choose between living with your family and saving money or going to MIT, which is a great university with extraordinary math and science programs.</p>
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oh wow. That is weird. My friend said one of the main reason he did not apply to ucb was cos of the class size factor. Wow, if he had known that, he could be potentially going to ucb.
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<p>Unfortunately, people assume that public automatically means that all the classes are huge, etc. Only about 5% of Berkeley's classes are over 100, and all large classes are supplemented with small discussions. This is about the same at Stanford, MIT, etc. Heck, Harvard's class ratios aren't what people would expect -- 69% under 20, 13% over 50. But again, large lectures at top colleges will be supplemented with small discussions.</p>
<p>On top of that, even at big universities like Berkeley, Stanford, and Harvard, you can find much smaller environments: the colleges are smaller, the departments even smaller, the majors even smaller than that. And of course, as student body size grows at these schools, so does faculty size, so that allows for more personal interaction with professors. Grad student instructors also help to make the environment smaller. And of course, one's activities are small too: the research groups, clubs, etc.</p>
<p>The same can be said of MIT (though it's not nearly as large as the above three, so I didn't include it). Even though its class sizes aren't what some would expect, there are plenty of small environments to be found.</p>
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Even if UCB's engineering faculty and the education it provides you is going to be top notch, the student body, on average, is not as strong as MIT's.
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<p>Yes, MIT's is statistically stronger. But as far as the student intelligence goes, you're really not going to notice a difference. There comes a point when the actual consequences of a difference in acceptance rate/SAT/whatever else are negligible. However, if the OP wants to immerse him/herself in an environment where most everyone is excellent in math and science, MIT would be the better choice.</p>
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The con side of UCB is that about 90% of the students are from in-state, thus lacking in geographical diversity. MIT attracts students from all over the world.
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<p>As does Berkeley, which also attracts students from all 50 states, as does MIT. Clearly Berkeley draws much more from its own region, but I daresay so does MIT (the Northeast). Then again, ask yourself: is it really going to matter that you have more people from Iowa, Oklahoma, and Texas? People don't seem to care much that Stanford, for example, is half Californian. Geographic diversity, to a certain point, has much less significance than some would think. (International students are a different matter, though.)</p>
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Also, UCB is predominantly made up of two ethnicities - Asians and Caucasians.
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<p>A few notes:</p>
<p>Berkeley is ~40% Asian, and about 30% white. It's 12% Hispanic and about 5% black.</p>
<p>MIT is about around 30% Asian, about 40% white, 12% Hispanic, and 10% black.</p>
<p>But I'll argue in favor of both universities here: "Asian" is such a huge blanket term for a huge diversity of cultures. It includes everything from Cambodia to Japan to Laos to China. So even universities like MIT and Berkeley, which have higher-than-average percentages of Asians, will still have very much cultural diversity.</p>
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Lastly, the atmosphere at MIT, as I heard, is intense academically due to a bunch of brilliant people living together and the school's rigorous courses. The atmosphere at Berkeley isn't necessarily academically intense or elitist like MIT.
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<p>Unfortunately, I think that's the downside of both of them: they are both very academically intense, and--dare I say it--competitive. There's going to be much cooperation, of course, but the intensity is what leads some to think that they're "competitive." MIT may appear to be more intense, as it is primarily engineering/sciences, whereas Berkeley has those + humanities/arts/social sciences/etc. Some say that Berkeley needs to make some of its science/engineering majors a little less difficult, as the dropout rate in those is higher.</p>
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Does anyone know if MIT has good programs in non-math-and-science disciplines?
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<p>Definitely. MIT has a top business program and is branching out to other disciplines. It currently has top programs in linguistics, philosophy, economics, and political science. It has a psych program, as well as other programs not related to math or science. Note, though, that even if you major in a non-science major, you still have to complete the institute requirements -- which include a biology course, a physics course, etc.</p>
<p>Frankly, I would pick MIT also. Along with the other reasons cited, I also greatly favor the ability at MIT to switch to whatever major you want (especially amongst the various engineering majors) without anybody trying to stop you, a feature that, sadly, does not exist at Berkeley, especially within engineering. The truth is, very few high school seniors actually know for sure which engineering discipline they really want to major in, and hence students like to be able to switch around. But Berkeley locks you in to a specific engineering major, with only limited opportunities to switch later, meaning you run a significant risk of being stuck in a major you don't really want.</p>
<p>I would pick MIT.</p>
<p>My friend tells me about how he's at the library (chatting to me), and he's hungry. It's 1 in the morning studying for finals, but he can't get food because there are people camping outside waiting for a spot at the library.</p>
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But Berkeley locks you in to a specific engineering major, with only limited opportunities to switch later, meaning you run a significant risk of being stuck in a major you don't really want.
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<p>You still haven't been able to prove this. You cite this in many threads, and still no evidence. The default logic is that it does not exist.</p>
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My friend tells me about how he's at the library (chatting to me), and he's hungry. It's 1 in the morning studying for finals, but he can't get food because there are people camping outside waiting for a spot at the library.
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<p>Er, what library is he at? I've never even heard of that...</p>
<p>The University of California-Berkeley and MIT are both great. There's no denying that. If I were you, I would go by fit. You mentioned that you "click" with Berkeley, but you should definitely visit MIT to see if you'd like it there as well. MIT may perhaps be the "best" of the best in engineering; however, Berkeley is an excellent institution as well. So, in summary, go by personal fit.</p>
<p>Fit is the most important criterion when chosing a university. It is pointless to attend a university if you are going to hate it there. That said, assuming you fit in at either school, I would recommend MIT. I love Cal and, as everybody knows, respect it a great deal. However, MIT is the premier Engineering school on Earth. If one has the opportunity to study at MIT, I say grab it and run!</p>
<p>Engineering at Cal is great (I'm an engineer), but I think you should consider MIT. Academics aside (there's really no difference between the two except for a tiny advantage in student body at MIT), a huge part of college is learning to grow up. I just think that would be hard to do if you've spent your entire life in Berkeley.</p>
<p>You can't make your decision until visit MIT and see which one gives you better vibes, though.</p>
<p>If you have not visited MIT you should really try to attend CPW (Campus Preview Weekend) for accepted students in the spring. You will get a good feel for the campus, the students and the social scene. You can sit in on a few classes and meet the faculty.</p>
<p>My D is currently a freshman at MIT and although she is clearly strong in the sciences she also loves the humanities. Although MIT may not have the breadth of subjects in the humanities of some other universities, it is stellar in fields such as economics, linguistics or psychology. As a student, whatever your major, you have to take on average at least one humanities class per semester. Humanities classes are always taught in small groups and the faculty is outstanding. My D took a poetry class first semester taught by a well known Irish poet trained at Oxford and loved it. And if you really cant find the humanities class you want at MIT you can always cross-register at the OTHER school in Cambridge!</p>
<p>While it is clear that you will receive an excellent education at either Berkeley or MIT, there are some distinguishing characteristics that make MIT unique, particularly for undergraduates. </p>
<ol>
<li><p>The sheer resources lavished on the undergraduates are simply without equal. After all, with only 4,000 undergrads, 6,000 grad students and a $10 billion endowment, MIT can easily outspend its nearest competitors in the sciences. This makes a big difference in fields such as engineering, biology, chemistry or neuroscience where lab equipment easily runs in the millions. EVERY undergraduate is involved in research of some kind, and it is built in to most programs. The undergrads are not just lab assistants to the grad students and post-docs but actually do much of the heavy lifting. Through the UROP program it is also easy to get funding for your own research project if you can't find one that suits you. </p></li>
<li><p>Most of the famous professors teach undergrads and many teach the introductory subjects, generally because they truly like the interaction with the students. Some of them have become celebrities from Youtube such as Pr. Lewin in physics or Pr. Lander in chemistry. That is when you realize that not every chemistry class is the same. </p></li>
<li><p>Although the studying is intense, the spirit is completely non-competitive. No grades first semester, no latin honors, no rankings. Studying in groups is the norm, in part because it would be virtually impossible to tackle all assignments on your own. With no freshmen dorms, underclassmen and upperclassmen are mixed together, so it is very easy to get help. The support structure is very strong and it is impossible to fall through the cracks. If you feel you need assistance in a particular subject, you will be assigned a tutor (typically a grad student) paid for by MIT to help you. </p></li>
<li><p>Despite preconceptions, the social scene at MIT is very active. First, you get to know many of your classmates quite well as everyone needs to take the same intro classes for the GIRs (math, physics, bio, chem). More than half of the student body join fraternities or sororities, which help you plan your social activities. The dorms are also very active and each has its own culture. You are guaranteed a room on campus if you so desire and will often get a single after freshman year. Most students participate in some sports and there over a 100 different activities to chose from ranging from scuba-diving to archery. For a school with no athletic recruiting, MIT is actually very competitive in sports such as crew or swimming. </p></li>
<li><p>While other schools have their share of bright students, the concentration of talent at MIT is unique in engineering and science. This makes classes very exciting and the pace of learning is truly rapid. You do end up drinking from the fire hose. Textbooks are mostly used for reference as much of the material is taught from primary sources. There is something to be said about walking in to a class and have the professor discuss some of the leading edge research conducted in his lab. My D found it very humbling at first when she struggled with multi-variable calculus assignments and some of her IMO classmates were already tackling graduate differential geometry subjects. But everybody at MIT is there for a reason, and you eventually find out that you were not accepted by mistake. My D. was helped by her roommate for math but returned the favor with organic chemistry. </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Again, as most other posters, I believe that you should think long and hard before turning down MIT. I really think that the decision is a no brainer considering that you are on financial aid. Quite a few students will full rides elsewhere still decide to come to MIT despite the cost. The very few admitted students who end up not matriculating at MIT typically end up at Harvard or Stanford. I believe Mollie stated in another post that less than 50 students a year turn down MIT for a public university. There are probably good reasons for that. Again, if you find a cheap flight, you should go to CPW so you can find out for yourself.</p>
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You still haven't been able to prove this. You cite this in many threads, and still no evidence. The default logic is that it does not exist.
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<p>Uh, come now. You go to Berkeley, and you don't know this? Every single engineering major is impacted. What do you think impaction means? </p>
<p>Let me put it to you this way. Let's say I come into Berkeley as a ME major, and find out that I want to change to EECS instead. Can I just do it automatically? Or do I have to go through a submission process, where I may (and in fact, probably will) be denied? What do you think?</p>
<p>Still don't believe it? OK, then how about this. Why don't you join me in writing a joint email to the advisors at the Berkeley CoE and ask them whether petitions to change majors are always approved, and if not, what you need to do to obtain approval. Then we can post their response here on this thread and see which of us is correct.</p>
<p>Contrast that with what happens at MIT where students don't have to declare a major until the end of their 2nd year and are free to choose any major they want. If they want EECS, they just choose EECS. Nobody is going to stop them.</p>