UChicago 2017-2018 Admission's Statistic Hints

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Chicago ✅
41

I beg to differ. The game doesn’t change that quickly. While in the 80s and early 90s Stanford was generally considered a notch below HYP for undergrad it was still considered right after those three by most people. About 20 or so years ago it achieved a status on par with HYP and in the last 10 years or so it has surpassed Yale and Princeton and is considered one of the 2 top dogs of higher ed along with Harvard.

Even more importantly, the ascent of Stanford in public opinion had a whole lot to do with the rise of tech and silicon valley. My opinion is that for a school to meaningfully ascend to the very top and be considered fully on HYPSM level, something organic and seismic needs to happen. Clever admissions tactics won’t cut it just like they haven’t cut it for many other top schools who have tried over the years to ascend in the USNews rankings in hopes that they will be considered on par with HYPSM. I would argue that at this level, the individual positions of the USNews dont matter that much. Princeton has been ranked #1 forever and still is not seen as more desirable than Harvard or Stanford. A few non-HYPSM schools have managed to achieve and maintain a top 5 spot for quite a few years and still they are not considered on par with HYPSM. Getting into the USNews top 10 is a huge deal but once you are in there are other forces at play that determine the pecking order and they are pretty hard to bend.

Truth of the matter is most (but not all) tippy top students are aiming first for one or more HYPSM schools. Some weigh their options and go for the less risky options of ED at other top schools they really like, but even most of them would gladly choose HYPSM if afforded the option. The sheer prestige of HYPSM is light years ahead of any other top US school and is hard to turn down.

HYPSM do not offer all the same thing. The run the gamut when it comes to class sizes, campus types, undergrad focus, academic philosophies, academic strengths.

42

I would disagree, changes are happening rapidly right now. Yale for example has failed to keep up and is rapidly falling out of the HYPS conversation due to lack of investment in STEM. Harvard has read the tea leaves and instead of relying on the cross town courses at MIT is fully investing in its own engineering center which lags terribly behind even public universities. Things change and staying at the top of the heap requires forward thinking.

43

Even the assertion that all top students would select a college that had greater prestige is based on assuming that there is commonality to all top students’ preferences. As if top students could not possibly value other attributes over prestige or even (hold on tightly to your pearls now) reject something precisely because it is prestigious. The label of prestige does not come without potential associated baggage.

Among millions and millions of students, it would seem entirely possible that there are at least a subset of highly performing candidates with top qualifications that would either ignore prestige as a factor or even actively seek out an alternative to what traditional society and older generations views as prestigious. There are some similarities to the shift in car buying preferences. If parents and grandparents picked cars for their young adult children many people’s first several cars would have been Cadillacs instead of Hondas or VWs since for decades older generations viewed Cadillacs as the height of prestige. But the preferences of younger people changed, young people get to buy their own cars and now there are different popular luxury brands. If parents didn’t have such an large influence in college selection - in many cases full veto power as the major underwriter - there might be larger shifts in college preferences. As it is, the desire for prestige or other criteria on the part of the parents continues to create a fairly stable demand for the traditionally recognized schools.

Perhaps a survey would show that 99% of parents, kids from certain socioeconomic classes raised in certain areas and grandparents would choose HYP over any other college every single time, but that does not mean the same is true for graduating high school seniors.

I’d like to see more data on this subject. Not just because it’s interesting, but because I suspect some of the outliers or trends suggest patterns that UChicago is tapping into but which most of us are currently not aware of. Similar to how surprised most of us were (myself included - hey, I’m not claiming I know what most Americans or college applicants think) in the last presidential election.

44

What @Penn95 said. As great a university as UChicago is, its academic position relative to HYPS hasn’t changed in any fundamental way recently. UChicago has always been academically very strong; what’s changed is that the selectivity and yield, which drive the USNWR ranking, have risen significantly in recent years due to Nondorf’s remarkable efforts.

That said, notwithstanding its always-strong academics, UChicago is now bumping against a ceiling of far wealthier and mostly far older schools with similarly-strong academics, greater national and international brand value and more pervasive and wealthier alumni networks. Stanford’s younger than the others, but it’s very wealthy, has an unparalleled (and very generous) alumni network in STEM fields and on the West Coast, and its advantage of being propelled by the Silicon Valley wave, with relatively little regional competition, is unique.

I think UChicago will only truly be grouped with HYPS in the popular imagination when you can look around and see comparable numbers of wealthy/powerful UChicago alumni to HYPS distributed in positions of influence throughout society and around the world. That could well happen, but I think it will take a long time.

45

@milee30 has it right on the matter of prestige being a turnoff for some as much as an attraction for others. I would prefer to see the prestige-mongers try their luck elsewhere. It’s good that they have places like HYPS to satisfy that hunger. But being the un-ivy gives Chicago an unacknowledged edge with another kind of kid, the kind Chicago wants, the kind who finds name-dropping a bore. Chicago is the place you go to in order not to have to drop the name of your school to get the attention of people but rather the names of Plato, Kant, Weber et. al. You can call it the snobbery of intellect, if you like. There’s a longing for it among a small but select group of kids who actually despise all the other stuff. That’s a concept the HYPS boosters have a hard time understanding.

46

@milee30 Fundamentally, I think you have a number of good points, but a number of bad ones, too. (Let’s start with your car metaphor – if every car sold for the same price, but production of Lexuses and Benzes were strictly limited, people would go nuts, no matter who was doing the buying.)

Politics: Chicago is marginally more conservative-friendly than HYPS . . . unless your idea of a conservative is Donald Trump. Whatever trend produced the result in the last Presidential election, be assured that it passed the University of Chicago by, too. The permanent conservatives at Chicago (i.e., faculty) worship at the altar of Intellect, Expertise, and Free Markets, which pretty much places them far outside the Trump base. The majority of undergraduates are not conservatives in the first place.

More to the point, of course there are lots of great students who want something other than HYPS. There are probably more great students who want something other than HYPS than great students who want HYPS. But the ones who want something other than HYPS don’t all tend to focus on the same clearly defined target. Lots of them want their own state flagships . . . and in some cases they disagree about which university constitutes their own state flagship. Some want other Ivies with special draws – Wharton, or Brown’s open curriculum, or Columbia’s Manhattan and core curriculum. Some want LACs. There’s a pecking order there, too, but since no one who wants a liberal arts college responds to general-population prestige to the extent that many HYPS applicants do, preferences in LACs are a lot more diffuse. Some want regional privates; some of course want engineering schools, and region comes to bear there, too. Some want weather. Some want the Duke Blue Devils and some the USC Spartans. Some merely want Anywhere But Here.

So, yeah, some want Chicago, too. But of all those choices, Chicago is just about the least different from HYPS. (Well, the least different from HY, and maybe P.) Life of the mind. Engineering barely exists. All about liberal arts. All about intellectual elitism. Cold. It’s Columbia in the Midwest, less snooty. It’s an under-endowed Yale in a much better city, but further from New York. Everyone has to take Directed Studies, the dorms aren’t as nice, the extra-curriculars are not as nice, it’s a little less fun but somewhat more rigorous. It claims to have the same residential college system, but it doesn’t quite It’s not really a different choice; it’s the same choice with some dials tweaked. Even more so since, long before hiring Jim Nondorf, the university made a conscious, consultant-fueled decision to remake its college more in the image of HYP, and then did.

The point is, Chicago isn’t in any market that’s served primarily by state flagships, or LACs, or national or regional engineering schools. Or that competes on price (for more than a handful of people), or that has great sports, or famous parties. It appeals to people who want a more-or-less comprehensive research university with high elitist prestige and a highly selective, liberal arts oriented college of around 5,000 in or near a world-class city. Chicago is an alternative to HYPS only for people who essentially want exactly what HYPS offers, except maybe in a different place with modestly different emphasis.

But if you are the kind of person who essentially wants exactly what HYPS offers, other than engineering, I think you’ll find that HYPS shows pretty well. Not that Chicago doesn’t show well, too. It’s great. But what Chicago is doing is saying, “If you want to compare us to HYPS, don’t bother applying.” That’s a strategy that will produce a great yield, but it is not likely to produce the strongest student body.

47

“I think UChicago will only truly be grouped with HYPS in the popular imagination when you can look around and see comparable numbers of wealthy/powerful UChicago alumni to HYPS distributed in positions of influence throughout society and around the world. That could well happen, but I think it will take a long time.”

And in the meantime, there are hopefully enough wealthy/powerful Harvard alumni to help out :wink: Ken Griffen’s money was very much appreciated by the university and the econ. dept.

48

This is actually hilarious. In the world of people who are connected to the prestige system of universities, Chicago is an ultra-prestigious name, eminently droppable. It lacks prestige with your cab driver, mainly, or your know-nothing aunt. But so do Yale and Princeton (not to mention most of the other “Ivies”).

You think people go to Brown or Dartmouth so they can drop the name? When I went to college long ago maybe 1% of the people in the city where I lived would have recognized the names of any of HYPS as meaning anything, except maybe that you were somehow too dumb to go to any of the local public or Catholic universities. That has changed in the past 20 years or so, but mainly for Harvard and Stanford. No one has a clue what Princeton is, and as Rory Gilmore’s name fades from memory so does Yale’s. Even today, HYPS draws fewer applications than most UCs, or Michigan, Cornell. Northwestern is right up there, and USC. You have to have a certain set of values to be paying attention to their prestige, and it’s the same set of values that prevail at Chicago.

I’m sure Chicago has been attractive to kids who hated the feeding frenzy around HYPS, but who fundamentally wanted the same thing that the people applying to HYPS (or the Ivies) wanted. Unfortunately, those kids are SOL now, because Chicago has manufactured the same feeding frenzy for itself.

49

i don’t think we are going to get a conclusion on a discussion about pecking order… any ranking cannot possibly claim to include enough dimensions. And rankings are so subjective anyway. Doubtless, for many individuals at the individual level, a certain school is their first choice whatever it’s ranking. But at the collective level, where do students want to go - where do they apply and what do they select if given multiple choices?

No one can seriously dispute chicago is amongst the best. My earlier mail was suggesting ED yields were not an honest comparison with EA, and the coercive element of ED can harm chicago’s mission and long term interest.

50

Gimme a break, @JHS. You are seriously contending that Chicago has the same prestige as Harvard, Yale et al.? All I have is my own experience, but I have spent a pretty long lifetime as a Chicago grad during which I will have been asked many times where I went to school. I have encountered little or no recognition when I answered that question. And I’m not talking about cabdrivers here but your average college-educated professional. Are you saying that if I had answered, “Harvard” or “Yale” or “Princeton” or “Stanford” I would have had that same reaction? If so, that’s, as someone once said, rather hilarious.

51

“You think people go to Brown or Dartmouth so they can drop the name?”

That was a part of it, once upon a time. When I did study abroad in the 80’s, I met (for the first time) a few Duke students who were doing the same thing. At that time, Duke was a respectable regional uni (and of course a renowned med school). Anyway, turns out that these kids were at Duke because “they were waitlisted at Brown.” Brown was flavor of the decade at that time. Not saying these kids were guilty of “name dropping” - guilty of superficially selecting a school based on popularity? Yep.

When I met my husband for the first time and learned he was from Duke I asked him if he, too, had been waitlisted at Brown. He hadn’t but told me that Duke was funny that way.

52

“I’m sure Chicago has been attractive to kids who hated the feeding frenzy around HYPS, but who fundamentally wanted the same thing that the people applying to HYPS (or the Ivies) wanted. Unfortunately, those kids are SOL now, because Chicago has manufactured the same feeding frenzy for itself.”

Doesn’t it depend on exactly who UChicago is accepting? Certainly there are a lot of kids who apply to UChicago because it’s the current “flavor of the decade” - but is UChicago accepting these kids? The College had 31,000 applications before even implementing ED so we can’t blame that for more than segmenting the feeding frenzy into those who really really really want to go there and those who are looking at other places as well. Of the first group, there are going to be some - even a good number - who are applying ED just to help their chances at a prestigious place. We’ve heard from some of these kids on CC because they tend to express a bit of regret after sending in the application and start to question whether they should switch. While I’m sure it’s possible for a bright kid to get through UChicago even w/o having examined carefully what he/she is getting into - but I wonder how happy that kid would be. And I would hope that the College can spot these applicants quickly and put them gently aside for the time being.

Could be wrong here but perhaps those who not only have the qualifications also have articulated a clear first choice for UChicago don’t have to worry so much about the feeding frenzy. Maybe that’s why UChicago uses ED so aggressively.

53

Agree with @marlowe1 at #49. 35 years ago, we in the West knew all about HYP and obviously S. We even knew about Brown because Amy Carter got expelled from there. Sure, some of that knowledge was based on stuff like “Princeton needs a guy like Joel”, “Love is never having to say you’re sorry”, and Thurston Howell III’s complaint about the Professor being a Yale Man. In other words, those schools were actually in the popular culture to some (or even a large) extent. Not so UChicago - till Harry met Sally. My in-laws lived/live in Philly - they knew HYP, Penn, and Columbia. They learned about Duke from Hubby. They kinda knew of Cornell (someone’s kid would study ag up there . . . ). No one had heard of UChicago (or Stanford either, though when Chelsea attended, right around the time the school was getting a name for itself on the national, undergraduate stage, they learned about that too). When I met my future MIL she told me how disappointed she was that my boyfriend had decided to attend a school no one had even heard of when he had also been accepted to Princeton. She lost major bragging points on that decision.

54

I’m hearing that Bill Gates son will be attending UChicago in the fall.

55

^^ and Bill is a dropout. LOL. But his money is just as good as anyone else’s.

56

“i don’t think we are going to get a conclusion on a discussion about pecking order… any ranking cannot possibly claim to include enough dimensions. And rankings are so subjective anyway. Doubtless, for many individuals at the individual level, a certain school is their first choice whatever it’s ranking. But at the collective level, where do students want to go - where do they apply and what do they select if given multiple choices?”

For your reading pleasure - and in the Quarterly Journal of Economics, no less. (Spoiler alert: UChicago doesn’t come out too well, but haven’t delved into the nitty gritty on that). Note that this a sorting by “revealed preference” of the applicant and while the paper is published in 2013, the data set might be older than that. Uchicago has come a long way in terms of “prestige” to the general public just in the last five or so years.

http://www.cmaxxsports.com/ec228/Avery%20et%20al%20Ranking%20Colleges.pdf

“No one can seriously dispute chicago is amongst the best. My earlier mail was suggesting ED yields were not an honest comparison with EA, and the coercive element of ED can harm chicago’s mission and long term interest.”

The Class of 2020 was the last “pure” EA/ED admission round, and there the yield was 64%. Not bad when compared to P and Y’s yields of 68-69% (via SCEA and RD). Via ED they raised the yield to 72%, and this year will probably raise it three points further. Yes, it’s ED so can’t be compared to the loftier yields of the HYPS schools via their SCEA, non-binding, admission practice. It may come as a surprise that those schools very likely admit as if they are ED, even though they are “officially” non-binding. If there is any question you won’t commit in the early round, you get deferred. They are not as aggressive as UChicago, but this is a difference in degree, not in kind.

57

Thanks for sharing @JBStillFlying Data of the article from college graduating class of 2004, so admissions were being done in October 1999-March 2000. Definitely a lot has changed then - literally when today’s college applicants were only being conceived. It’s incredible to see Chicago at those spots, and USC, JHU, Vandy (whose admit rate is going to be near 10%)! How refreshing if we could see something more recent. Much more interesting and robust analysis than the USNWR rankings.

58

^^ Totally agree. Revealed preference is the appropriate way to rank undegrad programs, since current perceived ranking information is contained in the applicant’s decision. Given the significant changes just in the last five-10 years (introduction of Common Ap, endowment differences, state funding issues, etc.) it’d be great to see an update.

UChicago’s 1999 admit rate was just under 50% (for the first time ever, per Boyer at the time). It’s a very different school now in terms of overall undergrad experience.

59

The most comprehensive public source of information on revealed college preferences that I’m aware of is Parchment (here: http://www.parchment.com/c/college/tools/college-cross-admit-comparison.php?compare=Northwestern+University&with=University+of+Chicago). Compare away…

60

I will wait for the numbers.

ED bumps yield by ~10%, so if UChicago has yield that is 10% higher than the bottom HYPS, then I would argue that UChicago yield is already in HYPS territory. ED depresses acceptance rate so if UChicago, despite ED, matches acceptance rate of the bottom HYPS I would argue that UChicago acceptance rate is already in HYPS territory.

If both happen, then UChicago has arrived.

Your experience from 20 years ago will not matter.
Your kid’s experience from 10 years ago will not matter.
Your opinion, no matter how loyal to UChicago or how intelligent you are or how many times you post the same opinion will not matter.

The proof will be in the numbers, because those will be the most relevant data points.