<p>All i want to know is: UChicago or Penn CAS?</p>
<p>I appreciate all opinions! Thanks! :)</p>
<p>I posted this over in the Chicago forum, but here goes on the UPenn forum, with some minor additions I just thought of… </p>
<p>azn4eyes - I attended Chicago for undergrad and Penn for grad school. They are REALLY different institutions. It really depends on what you want. Penn will provide you with a more traditional college experience, complete with a much bigger frat scene, more robust sports culture, and the school has a strong pre-professional bent, so you’ll be well prepared on that front after graduation.</p>
<p>The U of C provides a really wonderful experience as well, but it won’t be as traditional. Academics and learning for learning’s sake are more prized at Chicago, and the environment will be much more… charged intellectually. If you’re thirsting for more of that “epiphany” kinda moment from college, I think Chicago provides that in spades. Also, it’s more rigorous and you’ll probably work harder on academic pursuits. You could probably get pockets of this at Penn, but at Chicago, I loved how it was part of the overall culture. </p>
<p>Finally, I think Chicago provides a more intimate college environment, with Penn being so much bigger and students get defined more by their affiliations rather than their own identities. In other words, you still have “the athletes,” the people who are part of “those secret societies or frats,” or the like at Penn. At chicago, there just isn’t as much of that. At the same time, there is something good about having a larger university with people interested in such a wide array of pursuits. In one evening you could meet a nursing student, an engineer, and someone really interested in communications. The chicago environment is more close knit, but also more homogenous (everyone is reading Locke, Plato, etc.). </p>
<p>In terms of location, I prefer Chicago to Philly, but that’s just me. I loved how Hyde Park kinda had this general scholarly feel, and the city of Chicago had a big-city but friendly feel. Philly is just, well, grittier… There is a faster pace to it, and people tend to be more brusque.</p>
<p>In terms of reputation or “prestige,” as I traditionally say, this should be the least of your concerns. When dealing with similar schools, “fit” should be the primary concern - and that extends beyond philosophy of the school to the location to the curriculum and vibe. I don’t think there’s a discernible difference in these two schools’ reputations or clout. They’re both great schools, and what matters more is your happiness and performance at either place, rather than any boost these schools will give you by virtue of your mere attendance.</p>
<p>This is a great choice, and the schools really are quite different. Good Luck!</p>
<p>PS - I should add, I LOVED my time at Chicago, and so I’m a bit biased on this front. I really can’t imagine going anywhere else for what I wanted to do. I liked Penn a lot, but never quite got what the institution is all about generally. When I think back on my time at Penn, it seems like a very good - but kinda bland - school. I always have trouble figuring out what the “institutional character” of it is. In contrast to this, Chicago doesn’t back down when it comes to what it’s all about - academics, research, and inquiry at the highest level. This may very well be because Penn is still defining itself as it continues to improve, and Chicago’s character has been in place for quite some time.</p>
<p>I’ve met people who transferred from UChicago to Penn CAS, but never heard of the other way around (though I’d be the first to say my sample size isn’t statistically significant)</p>
<p>I myself wanted a full college experience–the great social life, some rah rah sports, vibrant campus life, and a diverse mix of people who enjoy their studies and their social lives…some prioritizing the former, others the latter.</p>
<p>At Penn all these communities existed, and I could glide between them as I saw fit, embracing my intellectual side (lots of out of class discussions with professors and other students…one professor had a weekly de Tocqueville discussion session…hardly a manifestation of pre-professionalism) one one moment and my ‘hey let’s get drunk and be stupid’ side–and occasionally marveling as the two sides came together, as they did when I went drinking with one of my professors in Korea.</p>
<p>In a way, Cue7 is right that you cannot pin down Penn’s identity, simply because it has so many. You will see what you want to see and find what you want to find (perhaps they should call rename it Rorschach University), and then when you leave you have an Ivy League diploma, which certainly never hurt anyone (though it doesn’t necessarily help. See: Bush, George W.)</p>
<p>I cannot speak to how Penn functions for its grad students, but I am certainly intimate with how it works for undergrads.</p>
<p>With all due respect, if you are not an undergraduate you can only have a superficial understanding of what undergraduate life is like as a grad student, so I would take any advice from someone in that position with a huge grain of salt. In order to give advice, you need to say what you want in a college. If it is pure post-graduate opportunities in the professions, I would give Penn an edge. If you want to go into academia, U Chicago has the edge.</p>
<p>@azn4eyes00…what are you planning on majoring in?</p>
<p>If it’s econ–then hands down, go to UChicago.</p>
<p>A current Penn undergrad that I know well almost transferred from CAS to Chicago after freshman year. He believed Chicago offers the superior undergraduate academic experience. He wasn’t thrilled with Hyde Park and the distance from the actual Chicago city center and northside. He decided to stay at Penn and try to create a similar environment for himself by getting into upper level seminar-style courses and leaving his requirements for later (unfortunately, later is right now). He has been happy with the Penn experience. I think there is a big difference in “vibe” between Chicago and Penn, as Cue7 has noted. Chicago is a much “easier” city to be in- people are friendlier and “gritty” is a good way to describe Philadelphia. Both are excellent schools, of course, and you can find what you want at either.
(Disclosure- I, too, have experience at both schools. I did some undergrad work at Penn and law school at Chicago).</p>
<p>davida1 - I don’t really know what to say or how to respond to you here. Whenever a poster asks “this school or that?” it’s hard for anyone to “truly” answer that question unless the guy attended BOTH colleges. Having done my undergrad at Chicago and then TA’d numerous Penn undergrads, attended house events where my grad friends were GAs in dorms, and through my work of recommending undergrads during my years at Penn, I think I have a general sense of undergrad life at UPenn. </p>
<p>You are certainly right - since I didn’t attend UPenn for undergrad, any of my sentiments are somewhat superficial. At the same time, since I have a connection to both schools (something most posters, momofwildchild aside, do not have), I felt I’d just contribute with my observations and thoughts after considerable interaction with the undergrad population at Penn. </p>
<p>I stand behind my original assertions as well. These are two extremely different institutions, with very different philosophical missions and divergent student cultures. </p>
<p>Finally, while you suggest the original poster should look at exit opportunities as the basis for his/her decision, I disagree. The poster should really consider the institutions themselves, and which atmosphere would be a better fit. That should absolutely be the top priority. These are two world-class schools, and if the poster wants to do academia from Penn or professional stuff from Chicago, he/she will be fine. In terms of atmosphere though, I can’t emphasize enough how different these two schools are.</p>
<p>Thank you all for your input, I will take all of your comments into consideration when I go to visit both colleges next week.</p>
<p>Keep on posting, I’d love to hear more of your opinions! :)</p>
<p>Hit up UChicago… hands down</p>
<p>OK, I’m going to attempt to be moderate and dispassionate about the whole thing.</p>
<p>Academics -
In terms of sheer academics, Penn is definitely on par with Chicago in the most popular majors: Psych, English, History, Bio, Econ. Yes, Chicago is probably the best economics department in the country, but Penn is consistently ranked in the top 10, and on the undergraduate level this is difference is unlikely to matter significantly, unless you’re an econ prodigy.
In physics and mathematics, Chicago is far better than Penn. In the humanities and most social sciences, Penn is either better or the same (better English and Art History, equivalent anthropology and sociology).</p>
<p>Location -
Penn has Philadelphia, Chicago has… Chicago. Both are in rundown neighborhoods, although West Philly has gotten better in the recent years (Hyde Park, I don’t know as much about, but it’s at least as ghetto).</p>
<p>Campus -
Chicago’s campus is beautiful, collegiate gothic, cloistered, and tree-lined. Most of the dorms are not as pretty, but the central area is definitely beautiful. Penn’s campus is similar, and has many areas that are as beautiful - the Quad, Fisher Fine Arts library, the Perelman Quad, Locust walk, the Vet school - but the dorms can be modernist monstrosities. They’re still very comfortable, though, and have AC, etc.</p>
<p>Undergraduate Selectivity and Rank -
This is probably the most contentious area. For the last 10 years, Penn has been one of the most selective schools in the country (this year’s setback notwithstanding), and is considered a peer to Columbia, Brown and Dartmouth, with the average SATs and GPAs to match. It regularly posts admit rates in the teens, rejects thousands of qualified applicants, etc. It has also been ranked in the US News top 10 for over a decade.</p>
<p>Chicago has only achieved these milestones fairly recently. It’s been ranked in the top 10 for 3 years now, and is getting more selective - but its admit rate is still significantly higher than Penn’s. HOWEVER: it is widely known to have SAT and high school GPA averages similar top 10 schools, and it is generally acknowledged that the admit rate is artificially high, due to a self-selective admissions pool. Regardless, the majority of students accepted to both Chicago and Penn will choose the Penn, probably because of the “Ivy” label and higher ranking, etc.</p>
<p>Social Atmosphere -
Penn is classically collegiate in many ways: it has a healthy fraternity scene - not as pervasive as Cornell’s or Dartmouth’s, but not as quiet as Columbia’s - and students definitely like to party. The school is very pre-professional, but that doesn’t squelch the intellectual life. If that’s what you’re looking for, it is certainly abundant. I don’t really agree with Cue7’s initial conceptions; students are very much individuals, and personally exist apart from affiliations.
Chicago, I can’t speak for at all. I would trust Cue7’s remarks in this area, as she experienced it first hand.</p>
<p>Gradschool Placement -
Penn is great at this. If you do well here, you will not have trouble getting accepted to grad school. A number have friends have been accepted to top PhD programs (Princeton, Yale, etc.), top law schools (mostly to NYU and Harvard, a few to Yale and Columbia), and top medical schools (Columbia, Cornell, Stanford). Yes, if you do poorly you will not share such success, but if you do well, you will be rewarded.
Chicago is very well-respected, and the same dictum applies. However, significantly fewer students manage to pull this off, and I assume this has something to do with grade deflation. In the Wall Street Journal study, Chicago fared worse than many other top schools for elite grad placement, and it’s probably related to this, as well.</p>
<p>That’s all. Whew.</p>
<p>Muerta - thanks for the sensible post, and for refining many of my initial thoughts about Penn undergrad. Just a few points:</p>
<p>I wholeheartedly agree that Penn wins the “cross-admit battle,” over Chicago, but I don’t think it’s for the reasons you state. Penn now has a good reputation as a “fun, social school,” and I think this fact - more than anything else, draws students away from Chicago and toward Penn. In terms of reputation, academic clout, etc., I think it’s a wash. When people pick another school (not HYPS) over Chicago, I think it has to do more with student life rather than prestige. </p>
<p>A quick note - I think Chicago probably has a slight edge over Penn in PhD placement, and Penn has a slight edge in professional school placement. I should emphasize, however, that the gap is CLOSING on both ends, and this should NOT be factored into the original poster’s decision. If you want to do academia and go to Penn, you’ll be fine. Similarly, if you want law or med school and go to Chicago, you’ll be fine. </p>
<p>In recent years, as grade inflation hits Chicago and as the school has sorta cemented itself in usnews, the student body is becoming more pre-professional, and doing better on this front. Anecdotally, when I attended Chicago years ago, maybe 3 students a year went to Harvard Law (at Penn, it’d be about 15 students a year to HLS). Now, I’ve heard about 8-10 students a year end up at HLS from U of C. Similarly, when Penn didn’t have a great academic rep in the early-mid 90s, it probably struggled a bit on the PhD front. Now, I’m sure Penn does much better on this front. </p>
<p>In short, the original poster should also know that these two schools are improving quite markedly, and at a much faster rate than their peers. </p>
<p>One other note, muerte or anyone else - do you guys also think it’s harder to nail down the Penn identity? The vast majority of Chicago students, I felt, really did buy into the scholarly, intellectual institutional philosophy of the school. I’m still not quite sure what Penn’s institutional character is - beyond being a big, varied, good ivy league school. Put another way, when I think Chicago, I think kids who are generally pretty serious, interested in reading Plato and Locke, kinda quirky, a little book worm-ish, etc. A lot of very specific images come to mind. When I think Penn, even after years there, I think big varied good school. It’s much more nebulous for me.</p>
<p>I was trying to think of ways to portray the vastly different feels of the schools, and I think this image will present the dichotomy pretty well:</p>
<p>At Chicago, you’re going to be absolutely surrounded by bookstores. Along with the official U of C bookstore, you have the seminary Co-op, which is like a huge labrynth chamber filled with stacks and stacks of books, you’re also gonna have Powell’s bookstores, 57th Street books, and one other bookstore that I’m forgetting. This is all within about a 3 block radius. Used bookstores, specialty bookstores, large bookstores, there are TONS ALL OVER Hyde Park. You’ll also have a bunch of coffeeshops and local restaurants where kids often go to, well, read. In between all these bookstores, you have the Regenstein Library, which, through a recent addition, will soon become one of top 5 largest libraries on the planet (I forget what the exact statistic is, but you get the picture). </p>
<p>At Penn, in a similar 3 block radius, you’ll have the massive Penn bookstore, which is big and shiny and nice and with a lot of floor space devoted to selling Penn paraphenalia, a GAP, a chipotle (that just opened I heard), a huge new and shiny Wharton building that looks kinda like the deathstar from Star Wars, a really nice new gym, some well-frequented frats, a starbucks, a CVS, and a specialty chocolate store (that I also believe just opened), a chilis is close by, there is a big mexican restaurant and an irish pub too. Oh, there is also a place, Abner’s, that does great cheesesteaks. All of these places are within 5-7 minutes walking of one another. The main undergrad library (Van Pelt) is close by as well, but to be blunt, it pales in comparison to the behemoth that is the Regenstein library at Chicago. </p>
<p>That’s not to say Chicago doesn’t have stuff like this too. The U of C recently opened a really nice, shiny new gym, there are clothing stores and a movie theater in Hyde Park, a Walgreens in the neighborhood, and a bunch of bars now on 55th street. During peak hours, the Chicago gym will be packed with kids industriously working out, frat row will be busy on bar nights, and Chicago kids will get deep dish pizza just as enthusiastically as Penn kids will go to Abners for cheesesteaks. (If you want great deep dish pizza, it’s available right in the neighborhood, but it’s about a 15 minute walk away or so.) Chicago also has more green space all around campus, so you’ll see kids tossing frisbees, playing full-field pickup soccer, or engaging in intramural sports right near the heart of campus. At all times, though, Academics (reading, studying, learning) still just has a more central place - both figuratively and literally - at the U of C. The very heart of campus is what I described above. The center of Penn’s campus (although it’s a little harder to define) has all the diversity I described above, all within 5 minutes of one another. </p>
<p>Does this sorta begin to illustrate the differences between the two schools? ;-)</p>
<p>Penn’s main library is actually extremely thorough and has both wide breadth and depth. At first I was skeptical, and coming from Cornell - there are like 9 libraries and have the 4th biggest college collection in America - Penn is slightly smaller. I believe it’s the 11th biggest, though, which is still very big, and they have basically every book that you would want to check out. I frequent the library often, and there was only one occasion that they let me down - and even then you can borrow direct from the 6 other Ivy League schools. It was there from Dartmouth within 3 days.</p>
<p>As for school identity: It’s an urban Ivy League school, and generally attracts the same sort of people that you would find at Columbia. If people get into Dartmouth and Penn, the kids who want a bustling city life will choose Penn, for example. And if people get into Columbia and Penn, they often choose Penn because it’s NOT in NYC, which can be overwhelming… or just because it’s been ranked higher for so long ;). The students are social, smart, driven. That’s the image.</p>
<p>My one-line comparison, based upon the students I know at both schools: similar quality educations. Both schools are full of nerds - Chicago students embrace their nerdiness, Penn students try to be very social.</p>
<p>Unlike UPenn, U Chicago does not rely on Early Decision to boost its admission stats. Chicago’s stuck with Early Action although this keeps killing its yield rates. But Chicago cares about the integrity of the admissions process and the welfare of its prospective students. Penn only cares about getting a higher yield than Princeton!</p>
<p>^^ and this has WHAT to do with the OP’s decision? (OP-please note that nyccard has an agenda devoted to discrediting Penn in every thread).</p>
<p>Why or how are the admissions policies and statistics of Chicago vs. Penn NOT relevant to the OP’s decision? </p>
<p>FWIW, I can “discredit” Penn only insofar as the school has flaws. If pointing out Penn’s flaws constitutes an “agenda,” then I guess I have one.</p>
<p>where fun comes to die vs. party ivy
you’ll find a fair share of smart students at either school.
i chose to ED penn and EA chicago (in other words, i picked penn over chicago) because 1. it’s too cold there. 2. quarter system. yuck. i would hate to take midterms every 3 weeks. 3. core curriculum</p>
<p>but uh…who cares about yield/admit rates? they don’t relate to how much you learn…nor is it of any relevant importance.</p>
<p>Muerta - I didn’t mean to deride the Penn library at all, it is very good, and had all I needed as a grad student. At the same time, you really have to see the 4 block radius at Chicago that I described to get a sense of the sheer scholarly nature of the place. Van Pelt is great, but once the addition to Chicago’s library is built, coupled with 4 great bookstores close by (one of which is the largest independent bookstore in America i believe), it doesn’t really compare. </p>
<p>Also, what I really meant to get across in my previous post is that Chicago just has a higher level of bookishness than Penn. Again, don’t get me wrong, Penn has great resources on this front, but Chicago has more of a “library/book culture.” You’ll always run across friends browsing books at a bookstore, in the various reading rooms of the library, and the like. At Penn you get this too, but you’ll also find friends at the massive gym and climbing wall, at a starbucks, at new deck irish pub, etc. This happens at Chicago too, but all I was trying to say is that books are just more at Chicago’s core. </p>
<p>Also, muerta, you mentioned earlier that, “As for school identity: It’s an urban Ivy League school, and generally attracts the same sort of people that you would find at Columbia.”</p>
<p>I actually disagree with this quite strongly. Perhaps it’s just me, but I found Penn students as a whole to be friendlier and less aloof than their counterparts at Columbia. I think Columbia students tend to be a bit more distant, fiercely independent, and less interested in the college community aspect of undergrad life. Penn students certainly have their moments of status-consciousness and brusqueness, but Columbia is more known for this. </p>
<p>Also, I should have added, at both schools, you’re going to get a whole lot of nerds. You have to be really smart to to get into either school, so you’re going to get a large nerdy contingent at both places.</p>
<p>“but uh…who cares about yield/admit rates?”</p>
<p>Penn does, excessively so. That’s the whole point. </p>
<p>Why do you think your school locks up nearly half its class through Early Decision? </p>
<p>If you don’t find that morally problematic, then I don’t know what to say. Basically, your spot could have easily gone to a more deserving lower income student who was unable to apply Early Decision due to finances. But you’ll never know, will you?</p>