<p>I know the ups and downs between two basically the dilemma is me as a pre-med at Uchicago: prestigious, well heard of, but extremely competetive, Williams College: no TAs, all resources for undergrads, tutor program mimicks that of oxford</p>
<p>I went to both! Pre-meds can do fine at either. What are you planning to major in? (At W., the music department boasts a higher rate of admissions among its majors to med school than does the biology dept.) </p>
<p>I think of course you've missed the major differences (and I'm sure you've already considered them? rural (VERY rural)/urban, very athletic/non-athletic, fantastic music dept/indifferent one, extraordinary high drinking rates/lower than average; differences in student bodies (W. is on the whole much more well-to-do); access to teaching hospitals, etc. (there are research opportunities at Williams, just not specifically attached to the practice of medicine); common core/no core (some minor distribution requirements); and strength in various depts. - Williams being unusually strong in art history, and unusually weak in foreign languages.)</p>
<p>Either place can get you into med school (and the fact that you got into these two schools means that, barring "weed out", you will get into med school.) Where will you feel comfortable, and challenged?</p>
<p>(P.S. Both are now way too cold for me! Chicago always felt colder. Chicago students used to make a fetish of working harder, but in reality I saw no evidence that they worked harder than Williams students who, however, rarely made a big deal about it.)</p>
<p>Such very different schools. I do think that either would be excellent for pre-med. You could ask how many students start off pre-med as entering freshman and how many go to med school. That will give you a rough idea of how likely you are to be in med school five years from now. Consider why the attrition rates are present (weeding out? students find other passions? grades aren't good enough, so the acceptances aren't there? bad counseling for pre-meds?). </p>
<p>If there are no discernable differences, visit each and go with your gut. One school will feel to be more "home" than the other. Also, Carolyn's test is good: which students do you want to be like in four years? Figure out which school will help you develop as a human. Can you see yourself becoming best friends with the people there? Can you see yourself being one of them?</p>
<p>I do think that a huge part of college success is comfort in your environment. If you are out of sync with your surroundings and don't feel like college is home, you're going to have a harder time doing well (esp. in the challenging pre-med track). </p>
<p>No one on these boards can tell you which school is a better fit for you; we don't know what resonates with your soul. You aren't going to go wrong with either school - which is about all we can say.</p>
<p>A friend was telling me about a program at Williams that allows sophomores to be admitted early to Mt. Sinai without having to take MCATs, etc. I think you'd still finish your degree at Williams, but then go directly into med school. It might be worth looking into. It sounds like a pretty low-stress and enjoyable option. From the Williams site: </p>
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Williams participates in The Humanities and Medicine Program of the Mount Sinai School of Medicine in New York City. The program offers assured early acceptance to the Mount Sinai Medical School for a limited number of sophomores who are intending to major in the humanities or social sciences. Accepted participants spend the summer between their junior and senior years in residence at Mount Sinai taking courses in physical sciences rather than organic chemistry and physics. Students interested in this program should contact the Health Professions Advisor prior to the fall of their sophomore year.
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<p>I echo the above. Chicago is great. Williams is great. But, they are very different environments. One is urban and predominately a graduate institution. The other has total focus on undergrads and is in a somewhat isolated location.</p>
<p>Being an undergrad at a school with a strong grad focus has good and bad points. Some profs don't want much to do with undergrads, but they are a small minority, especially at Chicago. On the plus side, you will get exposure to grad and professional students, and even the opportunity to take grad level classes (sorry, no med school classes for undergrads, though). In the sciences, resources are far greater - good if you want to work in a lab. But your lab work is more likely to be with a postdoc than the lab head/prof.</p>
<p>It is your decision, but not a bad one to have!</p>
<p>I believe this program is open to applicants from any strong research university/ivy or LAC. Check out the Mount Sinai School of Medicine website. You could apply from either Williams or UChicago if you plan to major in the humanities or social sciences.</p>
<p>Man, Congratulations on two wonderful choices (among, I believe, others)! </p>
<p>Have you visited both Williams and Chicago? They are so very different in environment that its hard to imagine that one wouldnt be a better fit for you. As I told you on your other thread regarding Williams vs Swarthmore, At the end of the day, you'd get an excellent education at either one and have a good shot at graduate or professional school with a degree from either one, so go with the school that best fits your personality. You'll do best where you're happiest.</p>
<p>Williams has terrific counseling and support systems for kids who are planning careers as health professionals. Theres a lot of information available on line so just peruse the website, or email the medical school advisor directly.</p>
<p>wow to be honest I don't really like parents at this point of my teenage life, but quite honestly those were some of the best responses I have ever got, thank you all so all, especially momrath for the enthusiasm ;) I'm not special at all you see, I'm quite the failure, but I'm also the determined, I use my failure to set my future</p>
<p>My son was admitted to both Chicago and Williams (several years ago) and decided on Chicago basically for the reasons that Mini mentioned -- the atmospherics, not the academics. He preferred the big city (and a Major League city) to the tiny, isolated but picturesque village in the Berkshires. He preferred the more cerebral to the more athletic oriented student body. But I'm sure if he'd have chosen Williams, he'd have done quite well there, too. (He majored in economics.)</p>
<p>I think I'm deciding with Chicago and visiting it only to make sure its <i>not</i> my fit. Despite the fact Williams seems so attractive I'm going to heartbreakingly have to turn down the offer due to financial issues. I really don't think a freshmen with little to no experience in work could find a job to support his education in Williamstown, MA whereas Chicago provides a lot of oppurtunities. Additionally if I want to continue my community service projects, I think they would be much more helpful at Chicago than one of the most affluent places in Massachessets. Nontheless I thank you all for your insight, this really sucks actually. In fact I am still pondering over this, but trying to stay with Chicago, in fact I was thinking of switching all the Chicago terms with Williams terms right now..... I guess I am going to right big W a letter on this</p>
<p>Your reasoning is very, very sound.</p>
<p>Actually, while the small town of Williamstown is affluent, the surrounding Berkshire/southern Vermont area is not all that affluent. (Not that this should influence your decision - just a point of clarification). There are many community service opportunities in the northern Berkshires/southern Vermont, and a large percentage of Williams students are involved in community service activities.</p>
<p>You know what, I take that back, I shouldn't make the decision until I visit. April 18th williams here I come</p>
<p>Man, as Jrpar notes there are plenty of volunteer activities in the Williamstown area. Not urban, of course, but still economically needy. Take a look at the Williams website for some ideas. <a href="http://www.williams.edu/resources/commservice/%5B/url%5D">http://www.williams.edu/resources/commservice/</a></p>
<p>There are also Winter Study courses that focus on community service both nearby and in other cities and/or countries.</p>
<p>Many, many kids have paid jobs that supplement their aid income, both on campus and in the community. Williams is quite generous in providing stipends for summer internships as well.</p>
<p>To me, the biggest reason to choose Williams or Chicago is the how YOU feel about the environment city or country. Visit both (is it again or for the first time?) and see which fits you. Either way youll get a wonderful education. Good luck and let us know how you decide. :)</p>
<p>I attended both of these schools for different degrees (although I am not a parent!), so I have some insight here. I would take Williams in a heartbeat for undergrad, but I think you HAVE to visit. The two schools are very, very different for undergrad. </p>
<p>Here is why I would take Williams:</p>
<p>1) atmosphere. Hyde Park is not wonderful. It is pretty dangerous, when I was there not all that long ago several students were assaulted or worse right on campus, it is getting better but still not a great place to live. There is actually just as much to do in Williamstown as there is in Hyde Park, without the danger / depressing environment, especially during the LONG winter when Hyde Park is really ugly. Yes, you have access to uptown Chicago but it actually isn't the easiest to get to w/out a car and even with a car parking is really expensive -- I bet you wouldn't really experience the true city life more than once a month or so.</p>
<p>2) students. This to me is the biggest difference, and this is why you HAVE to visit. Undergrads at Williams, in my view, are just as smart / perhaps slightly smarter than their counterparts at UChicago, but are definitely more well rounded -- athletics, arts, social skills etc., students tend to me more accomplished in and more focused on those arenas than UofC kids. Kids at Chicago I found to kind of embrace the miserable, slightly alternative, outwardly intellectual vibe (attending movies on campus could be an annoying event with the sheer number of pretentious comments), you know "where fun comes to die" and all, whereas Williams kids, while also fairly intellectual, just seem to be more comfortable having fun in a wider variety of activities, more down to earth. That being said, you may feel you fit in better with the UChicago vibe -- it really depends on what kind of person you are, which is why visiting and meeting kids is SO important.</p>
<p>3) pre med -- you will have a better chance of getting into med school from Williams, or at the very least, just as good. Pretty much all my pre-med classmates with good qualifications got into awesome, awesome programs (friends at Harvard and UCSF, to name two) and the school really supports pre-med applicants throughout the process. UChicago I just feel is more focused on grad students (hence the recent increase in size in undergrad student body, essentially to subsidize grad students) and its undergrad program is definitely not as prestigious as a Williams degree among med school adcoms. Prestige, Williams has an edge, in terms of almost any grad school. </p>
<p>4) teaching -- I sat in on an undergrad class on the "teacher of the year" at UChicago when I was a grad student, as it was in an area that really interested me. He would have been an average teacher at Williams. There are amazing, amazing minds at UChicago, few schools can compete with their research output, which is why it is a great place for grad school. But as an undergrad, you are NOT going to be their primary focus in almost every case. Williams is truly focused on teaching.</p>
<p>5) service -- I did community service at both, of course there are bigger problems to confront in south chicago than in the Berkshires (I did tutoring at an area school which was the worst I have ever seen, kids aged 10-12 barely literate in many cases), so if you are into "big picture" community service, Chicago certainly provides an advantage. But, the Williamstown area (in particular North Adams) has TONS of great volunteer options, and if you like one-on-one type service opportunities, they are in abundance in Williamstown, with programs like ABC, Berkshire Farm, Best Buddies, tutoring, etc., or others like them if those are not around anymore.</p>
<p>6) financial -- it sounds like this is an issue. Talk to the finaid office about possible changes to your package / work-study opportunities. There should be NO problem getting a work-study job at Williams. </p>
<p>Really, the two schools could not be more different -- Williams is on a huge, safe, beautiful, but relatively isolated campus, filled with well-rounded, outgoing, really smart kids, where the entire focus of college and town is on undergrad students. UChicago is in a fairly bleak and depressing (in my view) urban environment, with a beautiful but dreary-in-winter and very stark and imposing Gothic architecture, access (although not as easy as you would think) to a fantastic city, super-intellectual environment with high-powered grad programs and featuring self-consciously intellectual undergrads. Given how different the campuses, the settings, the institutional focus, and in particular, the undergrad student bodies are, I think the choice would be clear after your visit. I think the students, overall, are happier at Williams, but a lot of that is self-selection for the kiind of kids who go there.</p>
<p>Someone mentioned you are looking at Swarthmroe as well, I believe? That may provide a happy medium for you -- students and academic intensity more in line with the undergrads at UChicago, campus / atmosphere more in line with Williams, med school placement and prestige on-par with Williams. Service and activism are both huge at Swarthmore. Service is big at Williams, but not really activism.</p>
<p>manimgoindown - Obviously your visit to both schools will really help in your decision, but let me throw in another plug for the University of Chicago, especially the city. For me as a UC student, I definitely looked at the entire city of Chicago as my larger campus and I loved it. It wasn't "once a month" but once or twice a week that I explored different facets of the "Second City" whether it was community service as you outlined, a spectator at athletic events, browsing the shops, plentiful ethnic restaurants, the world class museums and so on. Even in the grey winter doldrums the larger magnificent city beckons (and that includes Hyde Park as well). Let's talk access to the larger city. You do not in any way, shape, or form need a car. Going downtown is quick and easy by train, an eight mile safe ride straight to the Loop (after your 6 block walk from campus). A bus/elevated train combination is also possible, but the train is quicker.</p>
<p>A couple for instances (and I was a "typical" student) - Going to a cozy ethnic restaurant (such as in Greektown or Chinatown) and enjoying the great food and company was that much more inviting in the winter. In cold December the Christmas festivities in Marshall Fields and along all the amazing shops on North Michigan Avenue was a treat. The Field Museum, Art Institute and other world class museums was definitely worth an extra browse in the winter time. Seeing the White Sox and Cubs play in the spring was fun. As for community service I tutored Hispanic teens weekly through a Catholic parish on the west side of the city taking the bus/train combination I mentioned earlier to get there. I also tutored younger kids in reading at a public library branch in the neighborhood south of the University. Live theater is great in Chicago (such as the "Second City" comedy troupe) and the Goodman Theatre for plays. Getting student tickets for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and then playing dress-up with the other bow-tie crowd was fun. And on and on. Anything that the human mind has created and devised is available in abundance in Chicago and as a student at U of C it's there for the taking (with some street smart common sense thrown in, of course).</p>
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and (Chicago) undergrad program is definitely not as prestigious as a Williams degree among med school adcoms. Prestige, Williams has an edge, in terms of almost any grad school.
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<p>I have to disagree on this point. I don't think there is any perceived advantage, one way or the other.</p>
<p>I also strongly disagree with that statement. If anything, Chicago gets the edge. Both are excellent schools and will serve you well in grad school admissions.</p>
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Prestige, Williams has an edge, in terms of almost any grad school.
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A silly and unfounded statement.</p>
<p>From AdmissionsDaniel, admissions rep at Hopkins, on the subject of college "prestige" and medical school admissions:</p>
<p>"Can I share a thought? OK, imagine a competitive medical school admissions committee -- they are reviewing their thousands of files. Do you really think all they look at is the Undergraduate school each student goes to. CLEARLY NOT. It is not the school you go to but what you do for four years.</p>
<p>Choose the school that fits you and provides you with the opportunities to succeed. Which school provides the best research opportunities, which school makes it easy for you to enrich your academics, which school has the most unique faculty and advising?"</p>