UChicago vs Willimas College

Parents Forum
21

<p>I will cast my vote for the U. of C., my first choice. I will be attending there next year.</p>

<p>You might enjoy coming over to the UChicago thread to learn more about the school (and the fact that Hyde Park is not very dangerous; I am a resident there, and I feel very safe walking around at night), its students, and everything it has to offer.</p>

<p>UChicago is an academic powerhouse and an intense experience. The students I know spend much of their time at the Reg, but they do find the experience gratifying. It might be the place "where fun comes to die," but, in terms of intellectual fun, it lives. :)</p>

<p>My two cents.</p>

22

<p>Just for the record, various schools participate in that Mt. Sinai early admit program; it is phenomenally hard to get into and can't be banked on by any means.</p>

23

<p>Sorry to ignite a firestorm, I was just sharing my honest opinion as somone who has spend many years on both campuses. A few responses. </p>

<p>In terms of prestige with grad adcoms, I do think the difference is negligible, but if there is any edge between the two, there can be no doubt it lies with Williams -- I was really trying to assuage concerns of the original poster, who seemed to imply that Chicago had an advantage in terms of prestige, which is demonstrably false. First, check the WSJ feeder rankings for top med, business, law schools:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>These are far from perfect, but Williams has a distinct edge -- despite a much smaller class size and students who are basically even in terms of numeric credentials entering college, Williams has almost as many alums as UofC at top 5 programs nationally. Also, I really feel that, for med school in particular, the undergrad focus at Williams provides an edge in terms of med school admissions advising and faculty recs. For law or mba, not as pronounced a difference since those admissions are (1) numbers focused and (2) less undergrad dependant, respectively. </p>

<p>Also, I just think Williams has a little more cache -- it can certainly claim to provide the top liberal arts experience in the country, while not many folks will claim that Chicago is at the top of universities as far as undergrad experience goes. Most folks have never heard of either, but in my experience, folks who are in the know about higher ed are almost always a lot more impressed by my Williams affiliation than my UChicago one. </p>

<p>In terms of safety, is Hyde Park an incredibly dangerous place? No. Is it very safe? Definitely not. I know for a fact that multiple students in my time there were assaulted and/or raped by off-campus strangers at my time on campus there. There are also plenty of car break-ins and robbery/theft, and pretty much every year some students are victimized by crime at the hands of non-students, which is essentially a non-occurence at a place like Williams. People who live in Hyde Park are fine, the problem is that the neighborhood is adjacent to some of the worst in the city, and hence the country, and I personally felt nervous walking around at night, and I'm a pretty big guy. To me, the risks and traffic and other ills of city life are outweighed by the advantages if you are someplace like NYU which is in the middle of an amazing neighborhood with lots to do, but I did find it a pain to get downtown without a car. You have to walk a number of blocks to a train which is not on the L system and which arrives only sporadically. It drops you off in essentially one location and then you have to transfer to a whole difference transit system. It often took me around an hour to get to a Cubs game or other cool downtown locations. Now, that being said, a Cubs game wasn't even an option at Williams, but I found that I really didn't utilize the amazing nightlife of Chicago as much as I expected due to Hyde Park's less-than-ideal relationship with the rest of Chicago in terms of transit and location. If you are a true city person, Chicago is no doubt preferable to the Berkshires, but if you're on the fence, I really think Williamstown is a better undergrad environment. Just my two cents.</p>

24

<p>Geesh, you can sure tell Ephman did NOT attend U of C as an undergrad. IF he/she had, they'd have learned a bit of critical reading and analysis, such as how to interpret the WSJ reference posted. Consider that the WSJ only looked at admissions to 15 programs (so they didn't even cover the top ten of each discipline, med, law, bus, which would have been 30!), they did not look at grad school, etc. </p>

<p>And the criticism of undergrad education, based on sitting in on ONE lecture? </p>

<p>Crime stats based on anecdotal impressions? I suspect if one looks at the numbers, especially if adjusted for population, one would find Williams far from the idyllic safe haven posited. But who knows? If Ephman has been gone for more than 3-4 years, his/her information is badly outdated. The south side of Chicago is undergoing a total makeover. The projects that led to many social problems are being taken down. The high rises along the Dan Ryan are already history. The projects near 35 and Cottage/King drives are going down as we speak. In their place? Middle class townhomes. </p>

<p>Yes, Hyde Park will never be as safe as an isolated rural campus (in the middle of nowhere..), but that does not mean safety is a huge issue. (yes, I live in Hyde Park...)</p>

<p>Heck, they're both good schools, with different characters. Stop the bashing.</p>

25

<p>newmassdad and Hyde Park denizen - Yea! So my prior post about the great attributes of Chicago for a student did not go on forever, I purposely stopped myself from touting the numerous diversions for the U of C students in Hyde Park itself. For instance, as a U of C student I enjoyed walking over to "the Point" park along the Lake, opening a paperback, and then watching the sailboats, joggers, and other folks go by. The view of the downtown Chicago skyline with Lake Michigan in the foreground is magnificent. The diversity of Hyde Park comes alive in the hustle and bustle of shopping for food in the Hyde Park Co-op off 55th Street (an early "Whole Foods" type market founded as a non-profit by the enterprising residents of Hyde Park.) A least a couple times a week I would walk or bike throughout the Hyde Park-Kenwood area (47th Street to 59th Street) going by the mansions on several acres in Kenwood, the 30 story high-rises in east Hyde Park, and everything in between. I can't comment on the current restaurants, musty old bookstores, and "student dives" in Hyde Park since it's been several years since my last visit. However, Hyde Park and the University definitely continue their upward trends.</p>

26

<p>I don't know - with the recent alcohol-infused near murder at Williams (two students sent home) 30% heavy drinking/48% binge drinking rates, bonfires of student belongings, and students defecating out of third and fourth story windows, I'm not sure one can claim that Billsville today is singificantly safer than Hyde Park. </p>

<p>The truth is that the geography IS very important - a student happy in the rural (and beautiful!) isolation of the Purple Valley would find Chicago a very different place (and vice versa). I'm not a great fan of the Chicago core curriculum (and I taught in it), but there are students who will thrive in it. There are major differences in offerings - if you want to study languages - living or dead - Williams is not in the top 50, and Chicago has a huge number of offerings (capped by Assyrian!) But if you are student musician, Williams is amazing, and Chicago is definitely underwhelming. If you like sport, either to play or to watch, well, Chicago is Chicago. </p>

<p>If a student has difficulty figuring out which of these two s/he prefers, given that the schools are so extraordinarily different, I'd seriously suggest going to neither, and taking a gap year.</p>

27

<p>
[quote]
I'm not sure one can claim that Billsville today is singificantly safer than Hude Park.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let's get real. There is no comparison</p>

<p>Crime stats</p>

<p>Williams</p>

<p>Criminal Offenses - On-campus 2002 2003 2004
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
b. Negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible 3 6 2
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible (Include only incest and statutory rape) 0 0 0
e. Robbery 0 0 0
f. Aggravated assault 0 0 0
g. Burglary 52 65 48
h. Motor vehicle theft 2 0 0
i. Arson 0 1 0
Caveat:
In 2004, there were 37 larcenies on campus. In 2003, there were 37 larcenies on campus. In 2002, there were 42 larcenies on campus</p>

<p>Criminal Offenses - Public Property 2002 2003 2004
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
b. Negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible 0 0 0
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible (Include only incest and statutory rape) 0 0 0
e. Robbery 0 0 0
f. Aggravated assault 0 0 0
g. Burglary 0 0 0
h. Motor vehicle theft 0 0 0
i. Arson 0 0 0
Caveat:
In 2004, there was 1 larceny from public property. In 2003, there were 4 larcenies from public property. In 2002, there were 4 larcenies from public property.</p>

<p>U chicago</p>

<p>Criminal Offenses - On-campus 2002 2003 2004
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
b. Negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible 1 2 0
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible (Include only incest and statutory rape) 0 0 0
e. Robbery 2 2 2
f. Aggravated assault 1 0 1
g. Burglary 40 41 39
h. Motor vehicle theft 0 5 0
i. Arson 0 0 2 </p>

<p>Criminal Offenses - Public Property 2002 2003 2004
a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
b. Negligent manslaughter 0 0 0
c. Sex offenses - Forcible 1 0 0
d. Sex offenses - Non-forcible (Include only incest and statutory rape) 0 0 0
e. Robbery 15 14 12
f. Aggravated assault 3 0 1
g. Burglary 0 4 0
h. Motor vehicle theft 66 40 73
i. Arson 0 1 0</p>

28

<p>I'd like to think my critical reasoning and reading skills are pretty fair, but hey, you can bash me all you want (I'll take the evaluations from my profs at one of UofC's grad school's over yours). </p>

<p>Briefly: on an earlier post I should have been more clear, it was actually an entire trimester course, not a single class session, with the "teacher of the year" that I sat in on. Not a huge sample, but I certainly expected a lot more. </p>

<p>re: the WSJ rankings, as I noted in my prior post, they certainly are of limited value. But, considering that the original poster was looking at medical school, looking at the representation of graduates at top five medical schools (along with law and business) seems like better than no data at all. I also gave an additional analysis of why I thought Williams was a better option for admission to med school. At least, my analysis is more supported / reasoned than those on this thread who assert, without any explanation, that UChicago is more prestigious among med school admissions committees. </p>

<p>And I recognize Hyde Park is getting better. But saying it is not dangerous is just disingenuous. It's like me saying that Williams offers a cornucopia of urban nightlife and clubbing options. I lived there this decade, and visited a year ago, so I'm not THAT out of touch. Washington Park, etc. still are dangerous neighborhoods, and they still are very close to various parts of campus. I am sure if someone is interested enough, they can compare crime stats for Hyde Park and Williamstown for five years, and believe me, there is a dramatic difference, far from just anecdotal. Walk around Williamstown and the Midway at midnight and tell me where you feel safe and where you feel a little nervous. I knew lots of folks at UofC who had car break ins / thefts, and heard of others who were victims of more serious crimes, and I can't think of a single person I knew at Williams who was a theft victim, let alone anything more severe. </p>

<p>Finally, I just didn't think there was much interesting to do in Hyde Park, sorry. I thought there were actually better food options in Williamstown, as outside of the amazing Dixie's Kitchen and Pancake House, nothing in Hyde Park, as of a few years ago, was all that wonderful. There were only a few bars which, again, were nothing that spectacular. More culture in Williamstown / North Adams as well with the great museums, indie movie theater, etc. You have the lake, but that doesn't really compete with Williamstown's natural options. The big plus is the proximity to Chicago, which obviously Williamstown has no answer for, and, notwithstanding my earlier comment about transportation issues, makes an enormous positive difference in terms of qol. I love city life and have lived in diverse neighborhoods in various cities since college, but Hyde Park just didn't do it for me. </p>

<p>UChicago offers a great undergrad education and for certain types of students, is undoubtedly a better fit than Williams. But, personally, I would have been really unhappy there as an undergrad (and outside of academics, which were outstanding, I wasn't all that thrilled with my overall experience as a grad student at the university). Just as someone who hates a rural setting and hates a mainstream type of college experience / students would likely not be thrilled with Williams.</p>

29

<p>"Crime stats"</p>

<p>So, in the two near-murders at Williams 6 weeks ago, there were no criminal charges. In the burning of student belongs in the Gladden House bonfires, there were no criminal charges. In the public defecations and feces spreading incidents, there were no criminal charges. In the concrete brick that went through the President's window, there were no criminal charges. In the substantial property destruction that already has resulted in at least 6 houses being banned from hosting registered parties (you know what that means), there were no criminal charges. </p>

<p>I think you've demonstrated that Chicago has a police department.</p>

30

<p>The posted crime stats are really interesting.</p>

<p>On campus, it appears that U. Chicago is actuall SAFER than Williams. Never would have expected that.</p>

<p>Off campus, yea, Hyde Park (the "public property" part of the stats, I presume) has more property crime. But isn't comparing Hyde Park to Williamstown a bit of an apples/oranges comparison?</p>

<p>At any rate, one's perception of "danger" is a personal thing. If one feels threatened by having people of color, panhandlers and other neighborhood characters nearby, then yes, Hyde Park would be a bit threatening. By all means head for the 'burbs or rural areas. Be aware, however, that EVERY college campus and college town has its share of problems. College students tend to attract problems (criminals aren't THAT stupid. They go where the pickings are easy.), not to mention those they create on their own (Duke, for example?)</p>

31

<p>I have to defend poor Ephman. I was a graduate student at U of C for 6 years (a while ago) and I still live north of the city. I thought it was a really depressing place. I was a TA and my students were always whining about their lack of social life. I often felt unsafe at night and avoided walking around if possible (they do have shuttles at night). Once, we went to get our car and a scary man with a big screwdriver was trying to break into it. We lived in married student housing on Hyde Park Blvd (on the third floor) and someone shot a bullet through our window.<br>
This was ten years ago and I realize things are getting better. But why spend your undergraduate years at a scary and depressing and academically stuck up school when you could go to Williams which looks like fun and has a better academic reputation anyway?
I know things there have improved over the last ten years, but</p>

32

<p>Funny you should mention. Faced with these two alternatives, my d. chose "none of the above". (But, honestly, I haven't been in Hyde Park in a long time, and I'm a native New Yorker, so it felt perfectly safe to me! Whereas I always feared for my life that I would be attacked by a purple cow....)</p>

33

<p>My daughter is at UChicago now, and reports that the campus and surrounding area are relatively safe - I say "relatively," in that it's obviously an urban campus, as are schools like Columbia and Penn, but it's no less safe than those campuses. She's lived at the Shoreland the past year, and has walked the mile to campus many times without incident. She uses the city a lot, and finds it exciting -- with much more to do than at Williams. Finally, I don't get the feeling that the school is "academically stuck up," as whylion says. I don't know, frankly, what that means. I do know that she reports that she and her friends seem to be doing the sort of things that students do at other schools (with the exception of there not being a heavy frat scene), the array of classes she has to choose from is staggering, and she's enjoyed most of her classes, and she's made great friends, none of whom appear "academically stuck up."</p>

34

<p>Academically stuck up? Huh?</p>

<p>I know many U. of C. students, and I would say that only one might be said to be "academically stuck up." I know many smart students who like to discuss their classes, but none come off as trying to sound better and smarter than another. </p>

<p>My mother attended the U. of C. thrity years ago for both her undergrad and grad education. She did not enjoy it. She had few friends, was forced by her mother to major in an area not of her choosing, and was inundated with homework, all the while longing to attend the state school where many of her friends from high school went.</p>

<p>The U. of C. seems very much for a specific type of student: smart, motivated, eager to work hard to achieve. This seems to be in most every student here, though personality-wise it runs the gamut.</p>

<p>It is necessary to visit both schools to see which one feels more comfortable. But, in my case, I didn't hesitate a heartbeat to send in the acceptance papers once I had been admitted to the U. of C.</p>

35

<p>That's right newmassdad, if the stats in post #27 are true, then there are more sex offences and burglaries on the Williams campus than on U.Chicago campus, and that's not even as a % of the student population!!</p>

<p>My D is a 1st year, feels quite safe, does tons of walking, alone and in groups, loves the city, the museums, the lake, etc. She has no idea how to be academically stuck-up!!</p>

36

<p>The old bromide of "Any college is what you make of it" - or drop in a substitute word for college - seems to apply to the various replies on this thread related to U of C. The brushes with violence (or possible violence) in the urban jungle on the one hand versus the multitude of urban delights on the other - all valid, all real, all personal to each of us who has expressed them here. My advice to the OP and other potential students to the U of C is if the urban experience (including the need for street smarts, etc.) with all its warts and diamonds is not your cup of tea, then the U of C is not for you. However, if you have a combination of both some apprehension and anticipation about the urban experience, you've come to the right place. The exciting, frustrating, scary, exhilirating world of Chicago is your oyster. I knew students at U of C who literally rarely left campus over their four years due to their bunker mentality (legitimate and real for them). And they missed so much of the U of C college experience in the real world of the Second City as a result.</p>

37

<p>
[quote]
The U. of C. seems very much for a specific type of student: smart, motivated, eager to work hard to achieve. This seems to be in most every student here, though personality-wise it runs the gamut.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well put. It pretty much captures my D and her college mates. I would just add a few more observations:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>want fashionable dressers? Look elsewhere. U of C students tend to dress blandly.</p></li>
<li><p>want big time sports? look elsewhere (unless you can afford pro tickets...)</p></li>
</ul>

38

<p>For safety, look at crimes of violence, and ignore property crime.</p>

<p>a. Murder/Non-negligent manslaughter
b. Negligent manslaughter
c. Sex offenses - Forcible </p>

<p>e. Robbery
f. Aggravated assault </p>

<p>i. Arson (this may or may not involve violence against a person, but the risk is high)</p>

<p>Data are as reported to the Department of Education, Office of Postsecondary Education, OPE Campus Security Statistics Website. </p>

<p>There is separate data for arrests. I don't know the facts of the "near murder". If it was an aggravated assault, then it should show up in this year's crime statistics. Of course, arresting a suspect, or filing charges are separate from whether there was a crime.</p>

39

<p>No charges. Students kicked out. The two "bonfires" at Williams were reported as "arsons", but the non-consensual throwing into the bonfires of student belongings were not reported as "burglaries".</p>

<p>The point being that the major differences are that at Williams, most of the "crime" is student-on-student (or on student or college property), whereas at Chicago it will be non-student on student. (Unless one is attacked by a rabid purple cow.) And hence reporting rates (and jurisdictions) will be different.</p>

<p>From today's student paper:</p>

<p>"My prefrosh visit to Williams was certainly memorable. I came in late April, just as Spring Fling was in full swing. My host led me to an all-campus party at Dodd, and as we approached, I saw a young Williams woman squatting in the center of the quad. I reflected, as I often do following moments of public urination. What was this place, where women dropped trou without the privacy of a hedge, and parties were school-sponsored? Would I, too, forsake the bathroom for the blacktop? And, most importantly, just who were these people? </p>

<p>“Drunk,” according to one prospective student from Florida, who attended an off-campus toga party this past weekend. “It smelled like hot liquor.” Several other prefrosh were also struck by the campus-wide intoxication. “On Saturday night, every person I talked to was wasted, except for one person who I ended up hanging out with,” said another visitor from New York. While many prefosh may be interested in, as Dean Roseman put it, “alcohol-oriented social activities,” they’re not too keen to watch us death-cup our suitemates."</p>

<p>I can't imagine one seeing anything like this at Chicago (I spent three years there), but I could be wrong.</p>

40

<p>Sports are pretty much non-existant here; no one I knows ever goes to games or is involved in sports. Juggling seems to be a thing here, though, as seen outside of the Reg on nice afternoons. . . </p>

<p>Fastidiousness at the U. of C. can be seen on occasion, especially with the females, but most dress pretty down-to-earth: no makeup, jeans, t-shirts. That describes me very well, and I think the U. of C. is is "good fit" for me, especially since I have lived on the campus the majority of my life and have seemed to take on the look of my surroundings. </p>

<p>A visit to the U. of C. would be ideal for prospective students, though I might not suggest going on a day specifically for prospies (see my post on this in the UChicago thread). The school seems to misrepresent itself by making it seem "fun" here. True, there is some fun, as seen in the fact that there are numerous school clubs and activities around both Hyde Park and the greater Chicago area. But, "fun" around here mainly is studying or talking with friends. Visiting on a "regular" day seems ideal, in my view.</p>