<p>Oddly enough, my son is participating in more sports at U of C than in HS. He has been on his house's bowling and broomball team, subbed as a linebacker on the house team, and is thinking of baseball for the spring.</p>
<p>Mini is basically on a passionate mission, throughout his time on these boards, to portray all Williams students as a bunch of violent, alcoholic, imbeciles. Well, you can pretty much pick almost any school like Williams, and you'll find the same issues: a small percentage of folks on campus, often associated with the same small group of sports teams, drinking in excess, and sometimes causing damage on campus and fighting. The "attempted murder" he speaks of is one particularly vile incident of a fight between two guys, the provocateur being a football player, who choked the other one over a girlfriend issue. Personally, I'd take my chances in the Williams environment (where again, not a single person I was friends with got into any kind of violent altercation or damaged property in any way in four years) where it's pretty easy to not get into a fight with a football player over dating issues vs. Hyde Park where, when I was there, each year a female student was randomly assaulted, and in two cases raped, while walking on campus late at night. But hey, I gues that's just me. I live in a gentrifying (aka, still pretty dangerous) urban 'hood right now, where I am an ethnic minority, so I am by no means someone who has a disdain for city life or integrated living. I just didn't think, personally, Hyde Park provided enough plusses in the immediate walkable area to overcome the dangers associated with almost any urban environment. </p>
<p>Both examples (choking at Williams and rape at UChicago) are certainly outliers of the worst cases of problems faced, but I think that as long as you're not hanging with the football/hockey/rugby crowd at Williams (or any school like it -- I guess I should add lacrosse crowd to that now), you're not going to end up getting in a fight. Just like the lacrosse party is not necessarily representative of the average Duke student. And even if you do get involved with the wrong guy's girl, you won't get robbed at gun point, that is for certain. </p>
<p>All I know is, there is too much drinking at Williams, just like at almost any northeast liberal arts or ivy league school, or at almost any place with a lot of 19 year old kids for that matter. Williams probably has marginally more drinking than many other prestigious places, on par with say Midd or Dartmouth, as it is in a more isolated environment, but the school is in no way an extreme outlier in this regard from its peers. And 98 percent of Williams student aren't smearing feces or whatever. If they were, Williams wouldn't be graduating the most rhodes scholars, nsf fellows, prestigious math and physics awards winners, etc. of any liberal arts school. It wouldn't be ranked first in terms of academic prestige by its peers in every year US News has ever produced a survey. It wouldn't produce art museum curators and alums successful in music and theater by the droves. I'd say the school is to be applauded for being transparent and open in trying to address the alcohol problem on campus, because believe me, if you've been to Princeton, Middlebury, Dartmouth, UPenn, Amherst, Bowdoin, etc., you'll see the exact same stuff happening. And lots of campuses, like Brown, that have less drinking have more drug use, which is pretty de minimus at Williams. </p>
<p>But I'll be the first to admit that if you can't stand beer-infused parties, hate sports, are too cynical to get spirited about stuff like Mountain Day, accappella concerts, and basketball games vs. Amherst, and hate the outdoors with a passion, Williams is definitely not for you. Like another wise poster stated, I can't imagine anyone visiting the two schools and coming away with doubts one way or another -- they are just so different, in terms of student personalities, curriculum, and campus environment, almost on opposite ends of the spectrum for top 25 private schools in every single category. But believe me, you don't have to be getting sloshed every weekend to love Williams, and I speak from experience here.</p>
<p>
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And lots of campuses, like Brown, that have less drinking have more drug use, which is pretty de minimus at Williams.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I don't know where this idea that there isn't drug use at Williams comes from. If I recall, five or six kids were arrested on drug charges, and many more brought before the deans for questioning, earlier this semester.</p>
<p>Well said Ephman...</p>
<p>I'll admit that when I was a Williams student, I occasionally had a drink or two (perhaps more). However, Mini might be shocked to find out that my "most drunk experience" was at a Smith party. Some of those ladies can really out-drink the Williams guys.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, I survived Williams and went to graduate school at a top Ivy League institution. To be quite honest, I perceived little difference in the amount of drinking that I observed at Top Ivy X and Williams College. Because of the insular community at Williams, incidents associated with dr.inking received far more publicity. At Top Ivy X, incidents such as vandalism, harassment etc. could easily be attributed to people not affiliated with Top Ivy X. Perhaps the perpetrators attended School Y. Perhaps they were locals.</p>
<p>The reality is that kids behave badly at all schools, and small amounts of bad behavior receive disproportionate amounts of attention. Heck, even the pinnacle of all that is good and proper-Swarthmore-has had some fairly nasty incidents (likely involving alcohol) quite recently.</p>
<p><a href="http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/2006-02-02/news/15750%5B/url%5D">http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/2006-02-02/news/15750</a>
<a href="http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/2005-11-03/news/15550%5B/url%5D">http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/2005-11-03/news/15550</a>
<a href="http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/2005/2005-12-01/news/15662%5B/url%5D">http://phoenix.swarthmore.edu/2005/2005-12-01/news/15662</a></p>
<p>"All I know is, there is too much drinking at Williams, just like at almost any northeast liberal arts or ivy league school, or at almost any place with a lot of 19 year old kids for that matter."</p>
<p>Why is it that we have an entire website devoted to the DIFFERENCES among colleges - in academics, sports, recruitment, financial aid, dormitories, core curriculum and distributional requirements, faculty, TAs, but when it comes to drinking, all of a sudden all of them are the same? I mean Yale and Minnetonka Community College both have courses, professors, and basketball teams, but would you characterize them as "similar"?</p>
<p>Chicago and Williams have different cultures - very different cultures. Many of the students at Williams LOVE their culture - 30% heavy (daily) drinking, 50% binge drinking, and all. Students at Chicago, with a different culture, love theirs as well. As long as students know what they are getting into, and feel comfortable, I think that's fine - that's why there are choices.</p>
<p>But don't try to make the case that the feces spreaders are everywhere in the northeast - they're not. Nor that there are window defecators at all of those schools - there aren't. Nor that concrete bricks have gone through President's windows. Nor that there are 30% heavy drinkers at all of those schools (the binge drinking rate at Swarthmore is about the same as the heavy drinking rate at Williams - and that's a HUGE difference.)</p>
<p>If you are choosing between Chicago and Williams, you owe it to yourself to know the differences between the two. I went to both, and the differences were vast, and even greater today.</p>
<p>MikeD ... on the Swarthmore cites. If, for instance, the table incident had happened at Williams instead of Swarthmore, Mini would characterize it as just another example of a drunken "attempted murder" by a typically sloshed, violent Williams student. After all, it isn't every school where drunken undergrads hurl tables at other kids heads, or get arrested after cursing out police officers, right? </p>
<p>The point is, if you are totally averse to a party culture featuring drinking, of course you should be aware that you'll find it in abundance at Williams (as well as at most other elite colleges). Perhaps less at places that scare more social students away because of a reputation for, umm, high stress / intellectual intensity (which, of course, can be great, depending on what you're looking for) -- e.g., Swarthmore or UChicago -- but pretty much the same at most other schools that the typical Williams acceptee is deciding between, like ivies or other NESCAC schools. Go to a football, rugby, hockey or water polo party at any school, and they'll be exactly the same. At least Williams doesn't have any frats, which can often tend to exacerbate peer pressure to drink. But to imply that public defacation is behavior that typifies the average Williams student, or even more than a tiny minority on campus, is just unfair and flat-out wrong. Just like I'm not going to suggest that all Swat students are table hurling, cop-cussing drunkards. </p>
<p>For the record, in four years at Williams, I didn't observe a single acquaintance (and I knew a good percentage of my class) go to the bathroom in public, vandalize campus, or attack another student, and while we were far from the heaviest drinkers around, my friends were not teetolars either.</p>
<p>Cease Fire!</p>
<p>The average Williams guy could be the crap out of the average UC guy. He will love the rough and tumble world of Wall Street while the UC guy sips coffee and drives a cab until he finishes his PhD while wearing the same t-shirt he had in undergrad.</p>
<p>I think the bottom line is, some old folks here really didn't fit in at Williams, and haven't gotten over that. I think it's unfortunate that they continue to besmirch their undergraduate college after 30+years. But, that's the way it goes. The pluralizing of single incidents (as reported in the school paper--these guys haven't been on campus in a long time) is simply one example of real embitterment. At Williams, according to these misfits, one will find vomitus, excrement, rape, and attempted murder at every turn. That's why I'm sending my parents (the grandparents of a current Williams student), up there in a few weeks for a short vacation/visit and a chance to see a big game. </p>
<p>I don't think that what Mini and his Igor-like acolyte spout here is accurate or fair. They both would have fit in better at Swarthmore, or Smith. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
The bashings by Mini-me have really gone too far.</p>
<p>"The average Williams guy could be the crap out of the average UC guy."</p>
<p>Sure that's what you meant to say, barrons?</p>
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...but pretty much the same at most other schools that the typical Williams acceptee is deciding between, like ivies or other NESCAC schools.
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</p>
<p>That's not true. There are at least two member schools of the Ivy League football conference with significantly less heavy drinking that Williams. While it is certainly true that you will find drunks at all colleges, it is not true that the pervasiveness of drunkenness is the same at all colleges. It is also not true that community acceptance of college drunks is the same at all schools.</p>
<p>I'm not quite sure how Swarthmore entered a discussion about UChicago and Williams. But, I would note that the varsity baseball pitcher who got plastered at a frat pledge event and then went to an all-campus party and tossed a table over a balconey is no longer a Swarthmore student and the terms of his departure make it virtually impossible for him to apply for reinstatement -- he would have to enroll at a different college and complete two semesters of credits that would meet Swarthmore's transfer credit policy. The student body expressed widespread outrage at the behavior. </p>
<p>I would also note about the frat-house scuffle that college security called the local police and two of the students spent the night in jail. Their jail time was noted in a campus-wide e-mail from the dean of student affairs to the entire student body.</p>
<p>Absolutely. Williams is full of serious jocks, x-jocks and just regular recreational jocks. Most UC guys have little humpbacks from carrying all those books since they were 5.</p>
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There are at least two member schools of the Ivy League football conference with significantly less heavy drinking that Williams.
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</p>
<p>All right, I'm curious. Which two?</p>
<p>Barrons-</p>
<p>Of course, you are exaggerating a bit in your comments on U. of C. students. But, for the select students, they are true. U. of C. students are very focused on learning rather than on getting a good job and moving straight from college into the workforce. </p>
<p>But, do you know what? I am O.K. with that. That is why my first choice is the U. of C.</p>
<p>Every pot has a lid. That's why we have 1000's of different colleges.</p>
<p>jpar:</p>
<p>Actually, I think that Dartmouth might be the only Ivy League football school that rivals Williams for campus drunkenness. Penn gives it the old college try, but the binge drinking rates I've seen recently are slightly lower, right around the national average unlike Williams which is above average and way above average for heavy drinking.</p>
<p>Harvard and Columbia simply don't fit the drunk school profile: urban locations, very large minority enrollments, etc. They have pockets of drunks for sure, but those schools are not giving admissions preference in that direction the way Williams does and neither of those schools proclaims itself with the "work hard, party hard" euphemism.</p>
<p>I would be surprised if the binge drinking rates at Brown, Yale, and Princeton are in Williams' territory, but I haven't researched it. I don't have a clue about Cornell.</p>
<p>Interesting stereotypes, but I doubt either fits. One's income will be just fine if one attends UChicago and there are plenty of tough kids hanging around as well.</p>
<p>From a 2003 speech to new students by Andrew Abbott:</p>
<p>"All of this tells me that nearly everyone in this room will end up, 20 years from now, in the top quarter of the American income distribution. I have surveyed those who graduated from Chicago in 1975a group considerably less privileged by ancestry than yourselvesand can tell you that their median personal income is about five times the national median, and their median household income is at about the 93rd percentile of the nations income distribution."</p>
<p>I would suspect similar numbers for Williams.</p>
<p>As far as toughness, UChicago actually has a fight club. My S assures me it is plenty tough, with accomplished boxers, wrestling champions, and black belts across many martial arts (S has two, one a 3rd degree in Chinese martial arts and another in Filipino martial arts with a focus on weapons). They fight one another for 3, two minute rounds, in a mixed martial art format. S says it is best to get the physics problem sets done before being hit in the head, however.</p>
<p>S also played IM football and is playing IM soccer as well competing in national martial arts tournaments on a U of C team sponsored by the school.</p>
<p>Again, my bet is at Williams, similar things happen (perhaps not the school sponsored martial arts competition team, that is pretty rare).</p>
<p>All of this while maintaining an active social life (and yes, they drink & party at UChicago), carrying for the time being two concentrations in the humanities, while completing pre-med requirements (may need another job if the translating ancient Greek while driving a cab doesn't pan out.)</p>
<p>Best pick a school by other means than oft stated stereotypes, the only one that has seemed to hold for Chicago is that the Academic workload has exceeded its representation (but, I bet with some careful choices it wouldn't have to), and that it has been for S an intellectual nirvana (when he can clear his head). </p>
<p>UChicago allows one to do just about anything, but as stated earlier, one must take the initiative and be a little aggressive, even if the squirrels (who are said to have the corner on aggressiveness at UChicago) don't like it. </p>
<p>Probably true of Williams as well.</p>
<p>I unsubscribed to this thread thinking it had gone inactive, but Jesus Christ God knows where it is now. Anyways a lot of good points and A LOT of insight I can add after my U of C visit, but I will make a final post when I finish visiting WIlliams</p>
<p>made my decision...... will update within a week after i stop throwing up my intestines..... ughhh the pain!</p>
<p>hey manimgoindown, any update?</p>