We feel truly blessed as our daughter has been accepted by Chicago and Princeton this year. She intends to double major in economics and chemistry with a post-graduation plan of attending graduate school or law school. Med school is a distant third option. Both schools are outstanding and will offer her a rigorous undergraduate education in her chosen field. We understand there is no wrong choice between these two of the finest universities; however there could be a better one. Here are a few questions to which we would like to have answers from knowledgeable members of this forum.
How is the undergraduate research opportunity at these two schools?
How prestigious is the University Scholar from Uchicago? She is offered the University Scholar with $15K/year, which makes the COA at Uchicago about $7K cheaper per year than at Princeton.
Again she is very humbled to be offered admissions from these wonderful schools and wish to make a decision as quick as possible so that one of the schools may offer vacant seat to a waitlisted student.
I’m going to sidestep your main question and say these are two very, very different schools in terms of campus vibe, student body, and curriculum. In fact, I’m having a hard time coming up with any areas of similarity between the two other than they are top schools.
If your daughter has not visited both, she really needs to do so. I expect most kids will find that they really like one or the other, not both.
Bottom line, I don’t think the $7K should drive your decision, rather your daughters reactions to each school should determine which she attends.
I’m pretty sure Princeton doesn’t allow undergrads to double major. It’s considered inconsistent with the junior paper/senior thesis requirements. If the ability to double major is a voting issue, then double check this info – it’s what we heard in October on a tour. Also recognize that Princeton doesn’t have a law school, which may or may not matter. Access to one as an undergrad helped me decide I wanted to go the grad school route, LOL! Don’t know how/whether your D’s interest in economics intersects with her interest in law, but if it does, Chicago would probably be a much better place to do work on law and economics than Princeton. Again, check. I know the law people, but not the economists at P’ton. Last curricular issue: Has your D looked at Princeton’s Integrated Science Curriculum (ISC) program for freshman and sophomores contemplating PhD work? That was the school’s biggest draw for my D, but she’s a biologist so I don’t know how it looks from the vantage point of other sciences.
Re environment. Agree with ihs76 that most kids will have a strong preference and that both schools are great, so preference should be the deciding factor. OTOH, I do see some significant common ground. At both schools, undergrads get small class sizes and opportunities to interact with first-rate faculty and really talented grad students. (Full disclosure: I was a grad student at Princeton who had a dissertation fellowship in Chicago where I had lots of U of C grad student colleagues as officemates.) I know people often see grad students as detracting from the undergrad experience, but as an undergrad, I thought they were a real asset – bridged the age divide, gave you a glimpse of the future of the field, tended to be really conscientious and enthusiastic, and remembered what it was like to be learning some fairly basic things for the first time. My department at Princeton was quite willing to let undergrads take grad courses. Don’t know where Chicago stands on that question.
On one level, “law & economics” is a school/method/academic subfield whose adherents can be found in law schools, economics, history, and poli sci faculties (as well as in the federal judiciary). U of C is generally credited with (/blamed for) founding this movement. Basically, the notion is that law should promote efficiency.
Outside of academia, regulatory agencies, civil litigation, and legislative policy-making are legal contexts in which there is demand for economic expertise. So, for example, I have a friend who is a former Econ professor who works at FCC assessing the market implications of proposed mergers of communications companies. At my husband’s law firm, the antitrust, intellectual property, and insurance practices rely on people (both internal and external) with economic expertise for work on things like market definition and share, damage calculations, etc. Non-profit advocacy groups use economists to analyze, critique, and help draft new legislation and some legislatures require that an economic impact analysis of bills or subsidies be prepared for their consideration prior to a vote. This is just stuff I’m familiar with – there are probably also corporate contexts where expertise in both law and economics makes you highly employable.
Seconding some of the excellent advice already given here:
– As far as I know, Princeton does not permit double majors. I don’t think it even has any roll-your-own major or joint major program. Double majoring is overrated, and you probably shouldn’t decide between the two colleges on that basis. You can be an economics concentrator at Princeton and take lots of chemistry courses, or vice versa. Princeton awards “certificates” that are essentially minors. Double majoring (and minoring) is comparatively easy at Chicago, but it helps a lot if you can place out of the foreign language requirement. People who double-major don’t have a lot of room in their schedules for electives.
– Chicago is the center of the world in Law and Economics, which remains a vibrant intellectual movement. The University of Chicago has a great law school; Princeton doesn’t. Notwithstanding, lots of Princeton graduates go to law school and become great lawyers. One of the best lawyers I know is a Princeton AB and Chicago JD. Princeton, by the way, has some great legal historians. (Or at least it used to – I haven’t checked recently.)
– It approaches silliness to worry about undergraduate research opportunities either place. They are both awash in undergraduate research opportunities. The University of Chicago has a medical school and a teaching hospital on campus, which makes working with doctors a little easier than it is at Princeton, but there’s plenty of medicine-related research going on at Princeton, and the Princeton area is a hotbed of it. (The hospital in House was in Princeton, but that was fictional.)
– Princeton and Chicago both have admirable intellectual environments and a bunch of faux-gothic architecture. But apart from that, and apart from the fact that they are both world-class American private research universities, which means that they are fundamentally similar at many levels, they could hardly be more different in atmosphere. Both of my kids went to Chicago and loved it, but could have loved other universities as well. One of them literally refused to get out of the car at Princeton; the other took the tour but never showed an iota of interest in going there. Many kids who adore Princeton would take a short walk on the Chicago campus, turn around, and leave never to return. That’s not to say that there aren’t plenty of kids who would thrive at either of them, but the environment and gestalt of both places really supports the notion that kids will instinctively know at which of the two they most belong.
FWIW, I heartily recommend having kids sit in on classes at P’ton.* Mine had a visceral reaction to the environment, but after visiting four classes (courses ranging in size from 8-250 students and in her 2 favorite fields), she came away thinking first impressions can be deceiving. (OTOH, I didn’t take her for a walk down Prospect on a Friday night. That might have vindicated her first impression!)
[*D emailed 5 profs in advance, asking permission to visit a particular class and, in the case of the small seminar, whether the prof would prefer her to observe or come prepared. Everyone got back to her w/i 24 hours (over a weekend), all but one said yes (the no was a class that would be spending the who.e period taking a test). And the seminar guy told her the reading assignment. It was a good lesson about faculty generally, I think. Showed her they were friendly and approachable but you had to ask and it helps to ask for something reasonable and to do it in a way that is not burdensome.]
My wife used to have a horrible opinion about Princeton. Then she guest-taught a seminar there, and she was bowled over with how well-prepared, thoughtful, and engaged the students were. Princeton still has a very preppy, suburban look and feel, as well as eating clubs, but I said it has an admirable intellectual environment and I meant it.
Regarding the intersection of Law and Econ/Business, there is Contract Law.
Practically speaking, there is a need for business-savvy lawyers in corporate settings.
Corporate/contract lawyers may obviously be kept on retainer by a company, in which case the attorney keeps her practice separate; or fill a firm’s position for a dedicated legal counsel in a full-time role, in which case the attorney is an employee of the firm.
Regardless of her choice, your daughter will, if she works hard, become the beneficiary of among the top undergraduate educations in the world. She will be set up to transition into the work force or Law (or other graduate) school.
Princeton has more name recognition among the general populace and probably better alumni networking on the east coast – and maybe Chicago has better Midwest networks – but really, both represent a passport to the very best of undergrad education and opportunity.
As others have said, the schools differ on multiple key points:
City/environment
Culture
Social/housing scene
Be sure to spend some time at both. If possible, be present while classes are in session. Try to sit in on one, talk to students and professors, walk around a bit to get a feel for the campuses.
I echo the sentiment that sharing classes with grad students is more of a plus than a minus: they bring their added experience and knowledge to bear, positively impacting the undergraduate.
This is so interesting. We were driving nearby and stopped for a look-see as the dusk was falling. Walked the shopping street (is that Prospect?) for about a block then onto the campus. After about 10 steps, DD said “OK, I’m done” and we left.
@ihs76
My guess is you were on Nassau Street near Palmer Square. Though it could have been Witherspoon. “Way too precious,” was D’s response. Followed by “This would get old fast.” Two of her friends & classmates (both guys) had the exact same reactions. But they’re all at an urban private for lefty nerds, so not unpredictable.
Actually, Princeton is much improved since I was in grad school. There are now two excellent ice cream places (in addition to the pretty good one that’s still there), a very good (and large but surprisingly cosy) independent coffee house and a bookstore with tons of used scholarly books and remainders, as well as all the latest (though it closes insanely early IMO). The student body appears to be more diverse and more academically-oriented.
Prospect is adjacent to the Wilson School and lined with eating clubs. Back in the day (maybe it’s changed), on weekends the parties spilled out on the sidewalk and there were lots of loud, drunk undergrads holding red Solo cups.
In terms of sheer loveliness, Princeton is the most beautiful college campus I know. I thought that when I toured colleges as a high school junior many decades ago, and I think that whenever I’m there now (which is once in awhile). Its landscaping bill must be astronomical.
Some of you may not be aware that the University of Chicago was one of the first American colleges to build pseudo-Gothic buildings. I believe it was the first actually to construct an entire, integrated pseudo-Gothic campus. Yale, Duke, and Princeton jumped on the bandwagon 15-20 years later. Chicago’s version is a little more restrained, more modest than Yale’s.
Thanks to all posters here. These are great replies.
Yes, we visited both schools. Daughter was drawn to U of C by its image of quirkiness. During the visit, we found this “nerdy culture” was not as prevalent as thought. It seems the university tries to promote the fun part of studying at U of C more than other aspects. Nevertheless, students at U of C are very impressive, more academically focused than their counterparts encountered at some other top schools. Uchicago’s “Law and Economics” is very interesting, definitely worth a look.
We found Princeton’s campus culture as intellectual as Chicago’s. Also more preppy students there. She sat in two classes at Princeton with the instructors’ permission. She felt comfortable at the classroom even though she would like to see more discussions initiated by students. The campus is very beautiful and the surrounding area is safe.
Unable to do double majors at Princeton is a setback. However, having a major and a certificate at the same time from Princeton is not that bad, I guess.
My daughter visited both campus and did not like Princeton at all. She felt it to be too “preppy” and perhaps could not relate because she went to public school all her life. While she was there she saw some guys who were running around like they were intoxicated. I guess that was / is rare but she saw it nevertheless and changed her perception drastically.
She loves UChicago and a lot of things about it. The campus, the people she met, the quirkiness of the application, (the essays), among many other things. We spent three days there and she still could not get enough. She loves the art and music program and, despite knowing the tough academic workload, is quite excited about going to school there.