UCLA v. Haverford?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>I'm really conflicted about whether to go to UCLA or Haverford, because Haverford is so far away/the cost is high compared to UCLA. Not to mention, I really like CA weather...</p>

<p>I'm planning to major in English.</p>

<p>Right now I'm leaning towards UCLA, but I don't have idea about what UCLA's English department is like. I know that UC Berkeley's English department is one of the best, but I -really- don't want to go to Berkeley.</p>

<p>And I heard that Haverford's English department is supposed to be good...but does anyone have any info about either? (Especially UCLA?)</p>

<p>Thanks...</p>

2

<p>These are two very different schools.
I take it you are just getting started in searching for schools, not that you have been accepted to these two and are trying to decide. Right? If that’s the case, I suggest you go to each school’s web site, then maybe read some of the school-specific College Confidential threads for each one, in order to learn some basic facts about them.</p>

<p>Haverford is a private, traditionally Quaker liberal arts college with fewer than 1200 students and no graduate schools. UCLA is a public research university on the opposite side of the country, with nearly 40,000 students.</p>

3

<p>Thanks for replying!</p>

<p>Actually, I was accepted to these two, and I’m trying to decide. XDD I know they’re very different, but I’m attracted to the different aspects of each.</p>

<p>For UCLA, I like the fact that it’s in CA (where I live!) and it’s a lot cheaper than Haverford. I’m not happy about how there’s huge classes and it’s mostly the TAs teaching and not the professors. But I’m also interested in the competitiveness and the whole “sink or swim” thing, which really seems like a good challenge. And wow, LA, lots of fun things to do. Hopefully. ;D </p>

<p>On the other hand, there’s Haverford, which has a beautiful campus and small classes in which the professors will actually know my name. And the whole “Honor Code” of Haverford seems really awesome. (And they have a squirrel as a mascot!) But, Haverford is costly, far away, and it’s cold. </p>

<p>My parents are mostly pressuring me to go into UCLA, and I’m starting to see how fun UCLA could be. I just really want to know how good UCLA’s English department is. I have tried finding threads about it here on CC but there seem to be only a few, or it’s just all very vague, like, “UCLA is #2 after UCB when it comes to English,” which doesn’t tell me a lot. I’ve heard that majoring in English at UCLA means have to take a lot of pre-req classes? Am not sure about this, so any info would help…</p>

<p>Sorry for the long post! I’ve been thinking/stressing over this quite a bit. x__x</p>

4

<p>Okay, clearly, I can’t comment on your financial situation and what you and your family can afford. So, if for financial reasons you can swing UCLA, but can’t swing Haverford then that’s one thing.</p>

<p>Putting money aside, however, in my opinion Haverford is, by far, the superior choice. But then again, I believe in the LAC for undergraduate education. </p>

<p>Of course, these two schools are so different. So, if you want large student body, Div I sports, huge classes, primary interaction with TAs not professors, significant frats/sororities, then clearly Haverford is not for you.</p>

<p>Personally, I believe that Haverford offers an unparalleled undergraduate education. Haverford has an academic atmosphere that is as rigorous, serious, and stimulating as one will find anywhere. At Haverford the principal education mission of the faculty is to focus on research and its undergraduate students. In addition, the College is committed to educating the “whole person.” Finally, it also has a great social environment, students are very happy, and there’s a strong sense of community. Generally, students love the College.</p>

<p>Here’s what CP (another college website, which CC doesn’t allow you to type the name of) says about Haverford: “Most seniors look back on their Haverford education with a distinctive appreciation. It is a fondness that comes from understanding how profoundly the College has changed them. Haverford teaches its students more than just school subjects: it teaches them to lead honorable lives… Many alumni do not realize the scope of their education until years later, but the impact is almost always felt. In this way, Haverford is unique.”</p>

<p>With respect to Haverford’s English department, it’s excellent. One of the most popular majors on campus, lots of well-loved faculty, and they send plenty of students to the top PHD English programs (Yale, Berkeley, etc.)</p>

<p>I am willing to concede that LA has better weather, but for the East Coast, Philly and the mid-Atlantic region is not so bad.</p>

<p>To me, again money aside, it’s a no-brainer. Good luck.</p>

5

<p>OP – I too think a Liberal Arts College is a better place to study some subjects as an undergrad… English being one example. However, the cost is twice that of UCLA. Your parents are probably pressuring you to go to UCLA because they are not comfortable with going $100k in debt, or alternatively, diverting $100k from their retirement resources.</p>

<p>$100k is too much of a price differential to go to Haverford, in my opinion. Many of the parents I know have a deal with their kids… “We’ll pay for a UC… If you want somethiing more costly than that, it’s on you.”</p>

6

<p>@pointoforder:</p>

<p>Wow, that was really detailed! Thanks a lot. It’s not so much that my family can’t afford Haverford…it’s just that both my parents are in their late fifties, and they’ve already had to deal with my sister going through college. I really don’t want to cause further (financial) trouble for them. </p>

<p>BTW, did you attend Haverford? It sounds like you had a fun time there. =) </p>

<p>As I said before, thank you for giving me your opinion. I definitely have some more thinking ahead of me (though I’m hoping to get this resolved before spring break).</p>

<p>@DuninLA:</p>

<p>Yeah, that and the whole mentality of “Haverford? But we’ve never heard of it” that Silicon Valley seems to have…or just the students/parents at my school. :stuck_out_tongue: </p>

<p>I’m lucky enough that my parents are willing to pay for Haverford if it comes to that…but honestly, I don’t feel comfortable with the idea of going to a college that’s not only expensive but also one that my parents don’t like/approve of, especially since it’s my parents paying for it. -sigh- </p>

<p>50 K/year is indeed a lot. D:</p>

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<p>dreamball, this is what you should do:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Accept your invitation to attend UCLA.</p></li>
<li><p>make friends with an english major that goes to Haverford.</p></li>
<li><p>During this fall semester take an English class at UCLA that is EXACTLY at the same time as an English class taken by your Haverford friend.</p></li>
<li><p>Go to the English class at UCLA.</p></li>
<li><p>Call your friend while you are in class and ask him how many students are in his English class.</p></li>
<li><p>When he gets back to you and tells you a number of less than 10 students, start counting the number of students in YOUR English class.</p></li>
<li><p>If you are at 500 students and still counting, then you know that you made a big boo-boo.</p></li>
</ol>

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<p>some info on Haverford v. UCLA</p>

<p>class size:</p>

<p>Percent of classes in the particular class range:</p>

<p>2-9 students
H - 41%
UCLA - 24%</p>

<p>less than 20 students
H - 80%
UCLA - 54%</p>

<p>less than 30 students
H - 88%
UCLA - 70%</p>

<p>40 and over
H - 3%
UCLA - 23%</p>

<p>over 100 students
H - 0%
UCLA - 10%</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>Yep. Since there aren’t any classes, let alone English classes, at UCLA with over 500 students, you would probably want to learn how to count better.</p>

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<p>ThisC, that is true, because any classes approaching 500 students are just split in half, with the second 250 students viewing the lecture from a TV monitor at the second lecture hall. Or better yet, the class is limited to 400 students and the other 100 must take another year or two to graduate due to lack of available classes:</p>

<p>4 year graduation rates:</p>

<p>Harverford = 91%
UCLA = 65%</p>

11

<p>If money were no object, I’d strongly recommend Haverford. However … money is an issue here, so I think it’s important not to exaggerate the class size issue.</p>

<p>UCLA is one of the best public research universities in the country. At the graduate level, many of its departments (including English and Comparative Literature) would rank in the top 10-20. Some (like Linguistics or Philosophy) would rank in the top 5. US News ranks UCLA’s graduate English department #10. For modern American literature, it ties with Princeton for 8th. Other specialties in the English department rank as high as #4. </p>

<p>More than half of UCLA’s classes have fewer than 20 students. A school as big as UCLA has many, many more classes than a small college like Haverford. Over 400 class sections have only 2-9 students. With a little effort, you can seek them out. Many of the classes with 100 or more students are likely to be introductory classes in popular majors, perhaps more often in the sciences than the humanities. The Common Data Sets unfortunately don’t give such specific break-downs, but you should be able to get a clearer idea from a current student or faculty member.</p>

12

<p>My kid is in a small LAC. It is an even better investment than we imagined. He feels full of strength and possibilities. He is doing things he never imagined he could. The support of brilliant teachers and other brilliant students is amazing. However, we also live two hours away, and we are thoroughly acclimated to the culture and climate–and he ONLY wanted to go to an LAC. It sounds as if Haverford feels more remote and intimidating to you than UCLA, as well as more expensive. Also, it is REALLY small, and that smallness is something you’re either going to love or hate. If you don’t have a strong feeling for Haverford and a drive to go there, I definitely think UCLA is an incredibly respectable choice and you would get a great education in an environment that seems more natural and comfortable to you.</p>

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<p>tk21769 makes an excellent point about relative class sizes. You should contact your department at UCLA, and find out something about the classes in your major field. How soon will you be able to be in smaller classes? How broad are the offerings at the undergraduate level? In the upper-level classes, will you only be with juniors and seniors, or are some of the classes likely to include graduate students as well? If you have a particular focus now, what are the offerings like for that specialization?</p>

<p>Haverford students can cross-enroll at Bryn Mawr (a mile away), Swarthmore (about 30 minutes away) and U Penn (about 50 minutes away). Talk to someone at Haverford to find out just how easy it is to do that these days. Friends of mine at BMC and HC back in the '70s managed to juggle their schedules so that they could take Old Irish at Penn (Old English was offered at BMC). You may come up with a “UCLA course number equivalent” by combining the offerings of these four institutions, but don’t forget to factor in the commuting time!</p>

<p>In your calculations, don’t forget to include travel expenses and wardrobe for the colder, wetter winter season in the Philly area. </p>

<p>Wishing you all the best.</p>

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<p>Sorry, I thought you had just made a mistake. I didn’t realize you were being intentionally disingenuous and didn’t care about little things like facts.</p>

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<p>Again, I understand that different people have different financial situations, different levels at which they are willing to sacrifice to pay private tuitions. It’s hard—to virtually impossible—to get sound advice on those kind of issues via a message board.</p>

<p>I will say that our family really values the LAC experience as a form of undergraduate education. So, Haverford and the like would be worth the sacrifice for us. But, I fully understand that others might make a different calculus. </p>

<p>I also agree with what Endicott says up at post #12. </p>

<p>Finally, I will add that in working at a large research university, I’ve observed that most of the faculty (although not all, obviously) sent their own children to LACs (e.g., Amherst, Grinnell, Haverford, Kenyon, Swarthmore, Wesleyan, quickly come to mind) for their undergraduate education. Now, part of it, of course, may just be the choice/fit of the particular child, but also I think the overrepresentation of LACs among the faculty kids demonstrates that lots of informed folks see the value of the LAC education for undergraduate education.</p>

<p>Of course, you’ll need to make your own decision: Haverford is not right for everybody, and certainly UCLA is not right for everyone. I’m just giving you my perspective as to why the answer to your initial question would be a clear one for me.</p>

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<p>That’s what I think also, but I don’t quite understand, your parents can afford Haverford but they would rather not pay that much?</p>

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</p>

<p>What does that mean, if it comes to that? Honestly, if your parents don’t want to pay for Haverford I think you better go to UCLA.</p>

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<p>thiscouldbe, you left out this part in your post, when discussing the inability to take a needed class because of over demand of students wanting to take the same class at UCLA.:</p>

<p>4 year graduation rates:</p>

<p>Harverford = 91%
UCLA = 65%</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>That’s why you sign up for the classes that are in high demand. It’s not that hard. If you can’t find any classes with spots that fill a requirement, then you didn’t look. Or you must be one of those people that can sit in a room and miscount the number of people by a factor of 5.</p>

<p>And looking at the English Department listings, it’s not an impacted major. There are open spots in just about every class. If you know the requirements and are willing to take an average course load, it’s easy to graduate in 4 years. And if you plan ahead, graduating in 3 isn’t much trouble either. The people that don’t, simply didn’t give the matter a high priority. There certainly isn’t as much of a financial incentive to graduate as early as possible.</p>

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<p>Everyone, thanks a lot for the information. I was quite surprised to see so much info. o__o </p>

<p>@JohnAdams12 & ThisCouldBeHeavn:</p>

<p>Thank you guys both for the statistics, and the different perspectives. I actually heard it was difficult to get classes at Haverford too, but I’m not sure how true that is. </p>

<p>@tk21769:</p>

<p>Thanks for replying again and giving so much info about UCLA. I didn’t realize that there were so many small classes available at UCLA. I’ll definitely try to see if I can email/call UCLA to find out more.</p>

<p>@Endicott:</p>

<p>Thanks for the good advice. And good luck to your son in his studies! =) </p>

<p>@happymomof1:</p>

<p>You’re right; I should definitely ask UCLA more about the English department. And thank you for the info about BM, Swarthmore, and UPenn…I knew that students at Haverford can take classes at those institutions, but I actually hadn’t thought about this in terms of coming up with a “UCLA course number equivalent,” so that’s something else to ponder for me. :]</p>

<p>@pointoforder:</p>

<p>Thank you for replying again (and yeah, message boards aren’t exactly the best place to get sound advice on that kind of stuff XP). Wow, that’s really interesting that so many faculty members send their kids to LACs…</p>

<p>Your perspective is really helpful, so thank you for explaining more about your first reply. =)</p>

<p>@Pea:</p>

<p>Yes, my parents can afford Haverford but they don’t want to pay for it. And what you said is basically my dilemma–I wanted to go to Haverford up until I realized that my parents didn’t want to pay for it, and then I started reconsidering UCLA. Thanks for replying!</p>

<p>It seems like all I’ve been saying over and over again is “Thank you,” but I really mean it! =)))) I didn’t expect to get so many responses.</p>

<p>At any rate, I’ll be visiting UCLA over spring break and I think I’ll base my decision on that (and if I can get some of my questions about the English department answered). =)</p>

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<p>Thiscouldbe, tell that to the 35% that didn’t graduate in 4 years at UCLA</p>

<p>“If you know the requirements and are willing to take an average course load, it’s easy to graduate in 4 years.”</p>