UCLA vs. UC Berkeley as a Pre-Law History Major

Transfer Students UC Transfers
1

Hey everyone, I’m a long-time lurker who finally decided I should just post my issue:

I’m a History major that plans on attending the best possible law school I can after receiving my BA, and I’m utterly torn between UCLA and UC Berkeley.

On the one hand, I feel as though UC Berkeley would better prepare me for the rigorous and competitive environment of law school thanks to the senior thesis that would be required of me by the History program and the general competitive nature of its curved classes. Both the History Department and the Law School at Berkeley are world-renowned, and, because I’ll be focusing on legal history, the faculty from both departments may be able to give me a better educational foundation than UCLA (though this would be marginal, and UCLA is also an excellent institution). Involvement in the senior thesis program would also bring me closer to my professors, who could serve as excellent recommendations.

On the other hand, UC Berkeley seems as though it may have a negative impact on my GPA. While I have already attended a comparatively rigorous CC, I understand that Berkeley is known for burning students out. Moreover, it operates under a bi-semester system, which means that my classes may feature multiple mid terms and more difficult, cumulative finals. At the moment I have a 3.99 GPA, so my GPA at either school would have to be significantly lower to prohibit entrance into upper-tier law schools, but there is always the possibility that this could be the case. As for the history proseminar and seminar, producing a 30-50 page, graded, original thesis paper sounds stressful and time consuming, meaning that I would have less time to prepare for the LSAT’s during my final semesters.

There’s also a plethora of horror stories about UC Berkeley. I have read everything from the issues that the campus and the town have with homelessness and urban decay (my first time checking out Telegraph was eye opening to say the least), to reports of people flunking out because of unfair or arbitrary grading policies. Though Berkeley was my first choice, I am now apprehensive about it, largely because of the negative feedback I have gotten from former students and the difficulty associated with the History program. All I really want to do is to go to the best law school I possibly can, and I don’t want to make the mistake of transferring to the wrong school and destroying everything I have worked towards.

I also have to consider the quality of life I would have at both campuses. I think I’d honestly prefer the weather in the Bay Area, because I prefer the cold and I’m used to the rain having lived in Florida. I’ve been in So-Cal for several years, and I’m getting a bit tired of the eternal summer and the beach-bunny, laid-back atmosphere here. I have also lived in LA before, and while I understand that there’s a wide variety of people and places around both LA and Westwood, I dislike the pretentious, plastic attitude of a lot of the people I’ve met in LA. I’m also a comparatively older transfer, and Berkeley seems to have better housing options and resources for me in this regard. But I also understand that Berkeley has a lot of new-wave hippieness that would be annoying but not necessarily unbearable. From what I gathered during my trip up there, it also seemed to be a bit pricey. Once again, I see both positives and negatives with both universities.

I’ve visited both campuses, and my financial aid for both schools will be similar. As a result, I’m completely and utterly torn between them, and all I can do is ask for a third-party opinion. I know this is on short notice (I only have til June 1st to make a decision) and I know this post was rather lengthy and poorly-written, but let me thank you in advance for both reading this and for offering your opinion, as it will help me make one of the most important decisions of my life.

Thanks everyone!

2

Call me crazy, but I think the decision has already been made based on your descriptions! It seems like your only drawbacks for Berkeley are grade deflation and other people’s horror stories. In regards to the latter, take them with a grain of salt. Of course it is always interesting and helpful to hear others’ experiences at a school, but you never know what other external factors might have affected their experience and whether or not that will affect you. In regards to grade deflation, I’ve been told numerous times that graduate programs are well aware of schools that have a history of deflating the grades of their students and take this into consideration when evaluating their applicants. I don’t think this will be a huge problem. Granted, I am a complete stranger on the internet, but it looks to me like you’ve got your heart set on Berkeley, and you’ll probably be wondering “what if I’d gone there instead?” if you go to UCLA. Listen to your gut!

3

@fncrane nailed it! All the grad schools adjust the betkeley grades as they know about grade deflation. Also, he’s right about not necessarily trusting other people’s opinions. For every hater, you’ll find a lover.

4

omg, @lindyk8 approved of my post! I’ve made it to the big leagues! Lol, but one small thing, I’m a female lol :stuck_out_tongue:

5

Haha, @fncrane, well based on your avatar… ;:wink:

6

Pick Ucla honestly. Better quality of life and law schools will regard the two schools evenly. And your GPA and overall happiness should be higher at UCLA.

7

@couplemoreweeks That is an incredibly subjective statement. OP already said they thought their quality of life would be better at Berkeley, and the statement about GPA is irrelevant and not necessarily true. I, too, love UCLA a whole lot, but I’m not going to tell someone to go there just because it’s my dream school. Different strokes for different folks.

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@lindyk8 it’s a character from the TV show that has to do with my username hahaha

9

Why don’t you check out the law forum? I also agree with the comment to not trusting people’s opinion including mine and some people in this thread. Law school is mostly GPA and LSAT. But go where you like because you most likely do well there.

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@fncrane I’m aware of that. Just assumed a guy chose it. Or psychologically I went there. :-B

11

@Sulla1 Congrats on your admission to both schools and welcome to the forum. I agree with @DrGoogle and @fncrane to not necessarily trust a few opinions and look more toward a general trend. I also can’t emphasize enough that the law forums are your best source of information–infinitely more than CC at least.

That said, I want to point out that, like any other professional school, the standardized tests (LSAT, MCAT, GMAT, PCAT, OAT, etc.) along with your GPA are the bulk of your application. Business school hopefuls have a website and running web series for that information (PoetsandQuants - “Handicapping Your Elite MBA Odds”) and I wouldn’t be surprised if the law school admission process is much different from the B-school equivalent. It might be worth your time to watch one of their videos on Youtube. (For example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRFdMnrZCMA)

I also want to point out that, for professional schools at least, the whole “GPA deflation adjustment” claim is debunked fairly regularly on the above web series so one might want to place utmost importance to wherever they feel they can get the highest GPA–given the importance of a GPA for professional school admissions.

Lastly, also note is that the Boalt School of Law places preference to undergrads who come from outside Berkeley (the whole academic incest argument) so attending Cal for undergrad might affect you if your end goal is to get into Boalt. (Not that it can’t happen as I know of two people who did it this year alone, bu it really is an uphill challenge.)

12

Normally, I would recommend Berkeley for its outstanding history. However, according to your needs, you don’t really seem to care as much about the discipline itself, as caring about getting into law school. At least you’re honest.

And in the case of law school and your grades, I would recommend UCLA. If you’re really intent on law school and your requisite undergrad performance, the surroundings aren’t going to matter a whole lot. UCLA has quite a nice law library to study in, btw. Truthfully, it is likely you will achieve a higher GPA, presuming you are diligent. Though do be aware of quarters, vs. semesters at Berkeley (this is still the case, correct?)

That said, if you feel the context and surroundings of Berkeley will truly influence your respective performance, choose Berkeley and don’t look back.

13

Thank you for all of these replies everyone! They are already giving me a lot to think about!

@fncrane - That’s interesting that you think I am already set on Berkeley, because I’m actually leaning towards UCLA! What made you think that from my post? Maybe I’m just signaling this subconsciously!

@lindyk8 - I doubt they would adjust for grade deflation that much at law school admissions, though, would they?

@couplemoreweeks - Yeah, I believe that law schools would regard both schools as even, too. When you say my quality of life would be higher at UCLA, are you referring to anything specifically or just in general?

@DrGoogle - Hmm. If you are right, then why exactly should I not go to Irvine or Davis (not disrespecting either school, I’m just wondering). Hell, why not go to a place like Chico State (again, not disrespecting Chico State).

@ActuaryorBust - Thank you! I’m both excited and apprehensive all at the same time! Thank you for directing me to PoetsandQuants, by the way. I watched several of their episodes and the theme I took away from it is that soft factors really help applicants stand out from the pack, so I suppose good letters of recommendation and extracurriculars are in order. Now with regards to the “grade deflation” issue, what then do you think about the question that I posed to DrGoogle?

@anhydrite - Thanks for the blunt answer, I need insight like that to be entirely honest. Now with regards to the whole quarters vs. semesters issue between UCLA and UC Berkeley, which system is preferable and why?

14

@Sulla1

I did not mean to come off as biased at all. And to whomever said UCLA was my dream school you’re very very wrong UCLA was the last school I wanted to go to but my parents were not willing to pay for my dream private school (Claremont McKenna). I say the quality of life is better because well firstly UCLA is in Westwood which is an amazing college town. It’s always sunny and there’s the beach about 15 minutes away. Just comparing SoCal and Nocal it’s not hard to spot the differences. SoCal is very chill and laid back, and although UCLA is still a rigorous school, there is much less of a cut throat attitude. Also, UCLA is rated only behind virginia tech in top food ratings. While UCLA is perpetually sunny, Berkeley is perpetually gloomy. For people that don’t care about that then I guess it’s not a big deal but for me it definitely contributed to me choosing UCLA over berk. I go to a school that sends 10 people to Berkeley and 10 to UCLA each year. When I was weighing my decision I talked to each of those people and overwhelmingly the people at Cal said I like it here but… Or it’s okay but… I don’t know the horror stories you’ve heard but after talking to those people I’ve heard “you have to show up to class everyday because your classmates will not share notes”. And “they have very hard GES to weed everyone out because some people have to fail for us to succeed”. Ultimately you will get the same quality of education at both schools. In terms of people I know who got into both UCLA and Berkeley, the majority chose UCLA not because it’s better or worse academically but because of the overall quality of life.

15

Also, law schools do not adjust for grade deflation. Obviously a 3.6 at Berkeley is more impressive than a 3.9 at SDSU but other than that law schools can not adjust for grade deflation. They will adjust for the prestige of a school and schools that are more rigorous tend to be more prestigious.

16

Oh for God’s sake, berkeley is not perpetually gloomy. A lot of ppl love the campus.

17

@Sulla1

The issue is that the more prestigious schools, on average, tend to have have better professors which affect your LSAT scores and, to a lesser degree, more resources to help you with your extracurriculars. That said, even citing PoetsandQuants, strong extracurriculars do not replace a good GPA and test score and a deficiency in either will land an application into the waste bin fairly quickly. Looking at law school admissions profiles will show you that while most are from top universities, there is also a significant amount of admits are from less prestigious universities.

For example, this year’s Harvard Law School admits include grads from Weber State, Portland State, and UCR.

See: http://www.law.harvard.edu/prospective/jd/apply/undergrads.html

This year’s Northwestern admits include grads from CSULB, CSUN, CSUS, San Diego State, and even UC Merced.

See: https://www.law.northwestern.edu/admissions/profile/documents/undergraduate-institution-list.pdf

18

@Sulla1 wow I’m in the same boat as you! I’m choosing between LA and Berkeley and although our majors are different, my reasonings are the same–I’m doing math and am a little apprehensive about the difficulty of Berkeley compared to LA (even though both are up there); I feel like I’ll earn a higher GPA at LA than at Berkeley. But in addition to that I like LA’s major better than Berkeley’s, I don’t know if that’s the case for you. Like you, I was leaning towards Berkeley for a long time but recently flipflopped and am leaning toward UCLA after careful consideration; will likely SIR there within the next day. Here are my reasons, maybe they’ll resonate with you or help you decide:

(note these are my personal reasons, not intended to be persuasive)

  • Higher GPA in LA than Berkeley (even though the rigor isn’t much different, the competition definitely is, and classes are curved based on students. I def. think Berkeley a lot more competitive)
  • Semester vs. Quarter - I think I’ll succeed more in quarter system (even though they have more finals, they aren’t as huge as semester finals). Plus I like the fact that I’d get more leeway in taking classes (6 quarters vs 4 semesters)
  • I like LA’s major better - part of this has to do with the fact that LA is quarter system. I just get a lot more flexibility and think I’ll enjoy the major courses better
  • Undergrad doesn’t matter that much - esp if you’re pursuing further education. Honestly the prestige difference really only kicks in when GPA difference is marginal, like 3.6 at Cal vs 3.9 at SDSU like someone mentioned. But if you’re earning sub-3.0 GPA, it won’t really matter. And Cal and LA are not that far apart! It’s not like I (or you) would be choosing a cal-state over an upper UC.

Although I like north cal weather just like you and think Berkeley “fits” me better, I decided to prioritize academics/my success the most. Things like atmosphere/climate/“feel” are trivial (even though they matter to some degree), and in the end I’ve decided to go where I think I’ll succeed the most.

Again just note that although I sound partial to LA, I’m just giving you my reasons for why I’m choosing it. I’m definitely not trying to persuade you to come to LA, just providing my own perspective for a similar dilemma. Berkeley is no doubt a great school and it’s entirely up to you in the end–you can’t make a wrong choice! Good luck!