UDel's Honors v. Middlebury?

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi guys, first-time poster here.</p>

<p>As the title suggests, I'm trying to choose between UDel and Middlebury College. I know, I know--they're as different as night and day. UDel was my safety, and Midd was a college I liked in terms of community and campus(everyone was very nice there!)</p>

<p>I have been going head-to-head with my father about my decision for the past week. (Seriously. Every night. Every morning before we go to work. I'm not on speaking terms with him right now.) I like Midd's campus and academic excellence, but he really doesn't see the point of a smaller LAC college and wanted me to go to a research university. And while we were arguing, he did bring up a few points that I could not find the answer for online or on these forums.</p>

<p>Essentially, he thinks that the smaller class size won't make me "competitive", and when I go to graduate school I'll be more unprepared for their "cutthroat attitude" and drop out quickly. He also doesn't think that the school's remote location is conducive to internship opportunities. He is also suspicious of the fact that there aren't any set pre-professional routes.</p>

<p>I want to be completely sure that I'm going to love my college--I applied to other schools, but tuition was too high for one, I was waitlisted for another, and I was rejected from two others. It's down to these two schools--I need your opinion on which would be a better fit for what I need!</p>

<p>Some things to consider:
1. Their prices are essentially the same and both are affordable. Although UD's is merit-based and Midd's is need-based.
2. My intended major is neuroscience, although I don't know if I want to go in for pre-engineering, research, or pre-med.
3. I would like to be able to do research, probably during junior year. Does anyone know how accessible research labs are to students of both undergrad schools?
4. I was accepted into UDel's Honors program. Will this give me a boost in terms of internships or research?
5. I plan to take a language consistently, if possible.
6. Mentioned before--I plan on going to graduate school.
7. UDel is going to be a high school, middle school, and elementary school reunion all rolled into one. That's not a positive thing. I want to go as far away from home as possible, but I know it's not a major factor in choosing a college.
8. My father has refused to do any research at all on either college. Which is frustrating, because he graduated from Temple around 40 years ago and has no other exposure to college searches since then. He thinks Midd is a bad school because of its size.
9. I enjoy the small class feel of Middlebury greatly!</p>

<p>IN SUMMARY--I currently find myself torn between my academic and social needs, between UDel where it is a too-close-to-home university well-versed in chemistry and with more research opportunities(?), and Midd, where it is academically excellent but not popular in the sciences, a small community feel, and a gorgeous campus.</p>

<p>I really can't pick. I'm rather tired of arguing with my dad about this. I'd like to hear everyone else's opinion for both colleges!</p>

2

<p>At Middlebury, you’ll probably be able to do research right away (that’s what professors are hired to do: research with undergrads - no grad students). They’re pretty much a “feeder” school for the top grad schools - and the small size of classes means you can’t hide and are much more engaged than in a lecture hall - just compare grad school admission rates AND which grad schools (email both departmenbts, after polite greeting introduce yourself as an admitted student considering … and ask specifically what percentage neuroscience majors went on to grad school, percentage that were funded, and number at each grad school in the past 5 years or so.).
Remember that only 1/3 of your classes will be in your major - and your classes at Midd will be all-around strong, as good in the sciences and much stronger overall in the other 2/3 of your studies.
Also, at Midd, you won’t have to deal with budget cuts like Udel has had… they’re an elite college (“SLAC”). Look at endowment per student and pick up your jaw from the floor after making the division and putting numbers side by side.
If you plan on taking a language, Middlebury is THE reference for language learning in the country - yes, even over Harvard. UDel can’t touch this.
Show your father the USNWR with Middlebury’s and UDel’s respective rankings (for once, those rankings will serve some purpose! :D)
Email Middlebury with your dilemma, I’m sure they’ll have lots of points to help you - ask for stats.
Oh, and type “college data” + name of each school; compare graduation rates, % classes under 20 students vs. % classes over 40 students, etc.</p>

3

<p>Thank you for the great advice! I’ll be sure to email the departments about the success of neuroscience majors. Is it OK to post them here when I get a reply? I’m sure that other students considering the sciences at Midd would be interested to know the statistics.</p>

<p>You know how it is; Asian father won’t even consider anything but what he picked out for his daughter. Our arguments have started to escalate and I am no longer planning on talking about college to him at all anymore. However, I do still want to know this information for my own sake. I’ll send an email out and hopefully report soon!</p>

4

<p>But what’s weird is that Asian parents are very prestige-conscious and Middlebury IS very prestigious… especially when compared to UDel (even if UDel’s program in chemistry is very good due to Dupont, it’s just not anywhere near Middlebury level in other subjects).</p>

5

<p>Right? I keep stressing the prestige of Middlebury, but my father’s logic is something along the lines of “if I haven’t heard of it, it isn’t good.” He’s disappointed that I didn’t get into any of the Ivies that I applied to, and he’s just a very prestige-oriented person. It’s an awful line of logic, in my opinion. Unfortunately, some kids in my school think the same way about prestige.</p>

6

<p>Middleburry is IVY equivalent. Tell that to your parents.</p>

7

<p>^^ What does that mean?</p>

8

<p>It’s part of a group of “elite” institutions in the Northeast, of which the Ivy league is part.
The fact your dad doesn’t know it doesn’t mean it’s not ultra prestigious, just that your dad, well, wasn’t part of the elite 100 years ago when these categories were established (it doesn’t mean anything bad about your dad, many people outside the “right” circles don’t know about these schools). “Old money” knows, employers know, grad schools know.
It’s a “little Ivy”, perceived to be competitive with the Ivy league but with a purpose to educate undergrads.
Another moniker is “NESCAC”, which is another sports conference (which is what “Ivy league” is).
<a href=“http://thecollegevoice.org/2012/04/23/the-not-so-little-ivies/”>http://thecollegevoice.org/2012/04/23/the-not-so-little-ivies/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

9

<p>Show him some links: </p>

<p>From the Wall Street Journal:
<a href=“http://www.inpathways.net/top50feeder.pdf”>InPathWays - Discover latest hot new trending topic, insights, analysis;

<p><a href=“http://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php?page=1&perPage=25&thisYear=2013”>http://www.parchment.com/c/college/college-rankings.php?page=1&perPage=25&thisYear=2013&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Or just show him some stats:
Acceptance Rate
University of Delaware: 56%
Middlebury: 17%</p>

<p>Graduation Rate:
University of Delaware: 79.9%
Middlebury: 93.6%</p>

<p>SAT Scores (25-75 percentile):
University of Delaware: 1650-1960
Middlebury: 1930-2240</p>

<p>ACT Scores (25-75 percentile)
University of Delaware: 24-29
Middlebury: 29-33</p>

<p>Percent in top 10% of high school class:
University of Delaware: 40%
Middlebury: 73%</p>

10

<p>

Run out and get the book “Getting More: How to Negotiate to Achieve Your Goals in the Real World” by Stuart Diamond. You need to read this book right away! You can read it in 1 nite. It isn’t magic, and there aren’t any sentences that you can just utter and have your dad smile and say “ok, Mid it is!” But it lays out a clear and convincing way to go about negotiating this. Not talking is the last thing you want to do. You need to talk. Your dad obviously cares about you and by rebuilding the bridges so that you are both working towards the same goal you have a chance at achieving your goal. Far more than trying to wait him out, anyway.</p>

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<p>@arcadia: Thank you for the links! I thought that the UD Honors program has higher statistics, as they are considered their own ‘bubble’ in UD. However, my college counselor DID say that when the Honors Program got new administration recently, the quality of Honors students has declined…something to keep in mind.</p>

<p>@MYOS1634: That may be it–my father’s job isn’t really one that generates conversation about colleges (our whole family does nails, even me), so he’s most likely not in “the know”. I guess it’s going to be my job to inform him…once he simmers down.</p>

<p>@mikemac: I consider myself a pretty decent persuader–I’ve thrown statistics, rankings, and personal recommendations at him, and he hasn’t cracked. Sometimes you just meet stubborn people, right? However, I will take your advice and talk to him…armed with more statistics and websites. I would love it if my dad loved Midd as much as I do–we’ll be going to their Preview Days, so hopefully I can prove his misconceptions wrong there!</p>

<p>I have sent emails to both neuroscience departments. I’ll keep everyone posted!</p>

12

<p>Good luck with your very stubborn dad! He obviously wants the best for you, but is not very well-informed. U Delaware is a great school, but even the honors program is nowhere close in quality. Maybe the guidance counselor at school could meet with you and him to discuss this. </p>

13

<p>Will you be attending the accepted student days? If your father can go along it would be great. Middlebury’s science facility is very impressive and perhaps you could meet with the head of the department and he would get a sense of the personal attention you will get there and the research opportunities. There are a number of threads on college confidential on “science at Middlebury” with alums describing their routes to top graduate schools. This is an obvious choice for everyone on CC, but hopefully someone at Midd can help explain it to your father. Good luck! </p>

14

<p>

Get your hands on the book I suggested before you do. As he says, paraphrasing a bit

Piling on facts hasn’t worked yet. As a tongue in cheek definition of insanity puts it, “insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.” ;)</p>

<p>And we’re having our own negotiation, aren’t we? Have my “facts” persuaded you? No more than the ones you’ve tried on dad, I bet. So I challenge you (not one of his recommended tactics, but I’ve only read about a third of the book so far). Invest an hour watching him talk at <a href=“https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOZo6Lx70ok”>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOZo6Lx70ok&lt;/a&gt; and see if you want to alter your approach.</p>

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<p>@mikemac: I just listened to Diamond’s whole lecture–that was amazing, and also blatantly pointed out the disadvantages of my own forceful method. I’m completely open to the idea of attempting a more personal negotiation; maybe rely on it more often so I can also get an allowance for gas money, eh? ;)</p>

<p>We’ll be going to the Preview Days, Hitch123. They’re in ten more days, though, so I’ve got some time to persuade him until then!</p>

16

<p>Prof. Diamond’s approach does seem powerful, but he is quick to say it increases your odds but does not provide a guarantee. There may be too much water under the bridge at this point to change your dad’s decision in the time you have left to do it. Since your dad refuses to do any research on any school it may be that he’s reached a decision and won’t back down for anything. I hope not, Mid is a wonderful school. But you need to prepare yourself for that possible outcome. </p>

<p>The real focus needs to be on understanding the view of your dad. You will only have a chance of changing his mind if you can understand his point of view and then show how Mid in fact better meets his criteria. And you can start by simply asking him - “how should I choose the best college?” This is Diamond’s use of standards. Not to trip him up or out-lawyer him, but to understand the world thru his eyes. Had you posted this last summer I would have suggested you get a book on admissions which would lay out a logical set of steps in order to evaluate colleges. Then it could have been a collaborative process with you and dad as you picked and evaluated schools using criteria you both agreed on. Most people have a much more haphazard approach, to say the least.</p>

<p>In the book Diamond also talks about role reversal, something you should try. The idea is that before negotiating you have a dry run with a friend. But there is a twist. Diamond says you need to take the role of the other person. The point is to help you see the world thru their eyes.</p>

17

<p>

I think this is a key fact you should emphasize–Middlebury is one of the very finest colleges in the United States, and only the very best students are admitted there. It is a competitor to the Ivies in getting these students, not an also-ran. If you can go there for the same cost as the University of Delaware, you are getting a huge benefit. You might point out to him that you would be obtaining an education that costs–what, twice as much? probably more–for the same price. That’s a huge discount.</p>

18

<p>

This is strong evidence, and I think most neutral observers would be easily convinced Mid > Udel. But based on reading 1/2 of a book on negotiation :slight_smile: I’m going to go out on a limb and say the facts are not really the issue here. The people are. More facts alone are not going to convince people who are thinking emotionally. Get people thinking that the call for restrictions on greenhouse gases is really just a front for an attack on the capitalist system and all the facts in the world will never convince them global warming is real. And any set of facts can be “refuted” by a counter-argument because the negotiation isn’t something being scored by debate judges. You say Mid attracts better students? Great. I’ll say that just means a smart kid like the OP will stand out in class at Udel, get great recs, and into a top grad school instead of having to struggle to stand out among the smart kids at Mid. Etc.</p>

19

<p>One strong point: middlebury won’t take your financial aid away if your grades slip a bit first semester. UDel merit award may be dependent on grades. What GPA will you need to keep that award? </p>

20

<p>Essentially, he thinks that the smaller class size won’t make me “competitive”, and when I go to graduate school I’ll be more unprepared for their “cutthroat attitude” and drop out quickly. He also doesn’t think that the school’s remote location is conducive to internship opportunities. He is also suspicious of the fact that there aren’t any set pre-professional routes.</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I don’t find graduate school to have a “cutthroat attitude” at all. Indeed, my department and the grad students in general here are very collegial, and we help each other out. I forward on jobs and help my colleagues/classmates with statistical analyses, and I have two teaching me to use a statistical package right now, etc. In fact, I would say that the small discussion-based class sizes at a place like Midd are probably more akin to the small seminars you’d have in an academic graduate program. Also, what is this “when”? Not everyone needs to go to graduate school.</p></li>
<li><p>Newark, DE isn’t necessarily a bastion of internships, either. MIdd students probably don’t have a lot of term-time internships, but they are far more competitive for summer internships than UDel students.</p></li>
<li><p>Midd is a top-ranked LAC. There may be no pre-professional tracks, but the top firms are going to recruit there because it’s Midd - much like there aren’t many pre-professional tracks at Brown, Harvard and Columbia, but the top firms still recruit there.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>You can definitely do research at Midd (professors there are hired to be great teachers and researchers, and mentoring undergrads in research is one of their primary roles) and if you plan to take a language, Middlebury’s language facilities are unparalleled.</p>

<p>If your dad is very prestige-focused, you can mention to him that Middlebury is currently tied for #4 in the U.S. News rankings, which makes it about on par with Columbia and just behind Yale in comparison to the national university rankings. It is a truly fantastic small LAC.</p>