<p>All the sabre rattling is soooo interesting. What is Beijing up to? Threaten invasion ahead of the 2008 Olympics? Not bloody likely. Beijing is a beehive of Olympic activity. </p>
<p>What is their true aim? How do these pronouncements tie into the EU $$$ lust for Chinese weaponry contracts?</p>
<p>Also, the Taiwan/Texas analogy is not a good one for the US point of view. Taiwan/Puerto Rico maybe.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Seriously, your wrong.</p>
<p>first republic ever formed in asia: REPUBLIC OF TAIWAN CIRCA 1895 proof: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Taiwan%5B/url%5D">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Taiwan</a></p>
<p>out of all of the main Chinese dynasties (12?), how many of them incorperated Taiwan into its borders? ONLY ONE, Qing dynasty.</p>
<p>number of years Imperial China has controlled Taiwan as a provice in history: EIGHT YEARS</p>
<p>is Taiwan even part of China proper? No. proof: <a href="http://www.harpercollege.edu/mhealy/geogres/maps/eagif/chproper.gif%5B/url%5D">http://www.harpercollege.edu/mhealy/geogres/maps/eagif/chproper.gif</a></p>
<p>In the case of Taiwan being attacked by the PRC, Taiwan WILL counter will missiles to prominent Chinese cities, you mark my words. And I will fully support this effort without a doubt in my mind. </p>
<p>The U.S. sells millions of dollars worth of weapons to Taiwan every year, and as of now Taiwan's missiles can reach as far as Shanghai.</p>
<p>It would be foolish to think China can take Taiwan without a repercussion.</p>
<p>See, China's main reason for not wanting to cede control of Taiwan to an independent government under Chen or some other Taiwanese politician is nationalistic pride. Yet, their argument of nationalism is weak in itself; the people of China simply don't ** care **, because the issue of Taiwan does not affect them. Why does the Politburo and the other governing agencies of the People's Republic require an iron-fisted grip over a small island which means nothing to most mainland citizens?</p>
<p>
seriously. ppl here do alot of talking and bsing. ..... so what if theres a president. if no one recognizes taiwan as a country. it still isnt no matter what. taiwan just. exists.
</p>
<p>the U.N. refused to recignize the PRC for 22 years, did you know that? 1949-1971. The fact that the U.N. refused to recignize the PRC for 22 years doesnt make it an illigitimate entity, does it?</p>
<p>source: <a href="http://www.free-definition.com/China-and-t...ed-Nations.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.free-definition.com/China-and-t...ed-Nations.html</a></p>
<p>Taiwan is a de-facto country even though the majority of nations around the world dont recignize it. It has its own currency(New Taiwan Dollar), its own holidays (holidays celebrated no where in China), its own national identity!!!!</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I think that everyone here understood that my comments refered to you, and I don't see how they could overshadow their valid points. If you're just trying to belittle, playing a comedy with the words, I don't know why you're here, because you haven't made any point at all. If you're insulting me, because your high Chinese arrogance was touched with my words, then I reached my purpose. </p>
<p>
<p>I am a foreighner. You're so lazy to look at previous pages. Again, you tried to impress everybody here with your "clever, smartest" comments, and again you failed.</p>
<p> [quote=stupid] If I made a post calling all Americans spies, leeches, and conformists, I'm sure you'd be mad and respond likewise.
</p>
<p>Ha-ha. You are American, but you even don't feel it. Yeah, like Chinese spy, who lives in the USA for a short time. True Americans remember firstly their 1)forefathers 2)history of USA 3)all those freedoms and rights, Americans fought for. You remember 1) China must overpower Taiwan 2) Chinese history, all its dynasties 3) something else, only another Chinese can find out.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Yeah, I mean this. You are very smart, very. Why do you think I'm a racist. I like Taiwanese, Japanese, South Koreans and so and so on. But I dislike Chinese. Even not because they are communists and had great population, but because 1) they want to prolifirate their ideology and culture worldwide (beginning from Taiwan and USA, you already see one representative of such movement). So can't be a racist and join KKK (which was against Afro-Americans, in fact) or Aryan Nation, cuz I'm not white and am not going to be a racist in the future. How copuld you say such stupidity? Arayan nation.. while I'm not even white. Sgain, just to show off yourself and belittle me. Every Chinese enjoys, or no, it's a generalization :) </p>
<p>
]</p>
<p>So you conclude that I'm stupid because you think "I am also from America and a foreign spy", but I'm not from America, as I said before, so all your logic ruins. </p>
<p>
</p>
<p>What the hell are you talking about? How do all your comments refer to that quote of my speeches. How? You say about how communism appeared in China, and I said that I don't want everything Chinese to be prolifirated worldwide. I must conclude: you didn't understand what you were writing. It seems to me you're lost. Was you drunken?</p>
<p>[I must add the same warning as I did last time. This reply, while it took 45 minutes to type, contributes nearly nothing to the China-Taiwan debate. Feel free to skip it if you're looking for something with more substance and pertinence.]</p>
<p>Let's make this easier. I will number each of your comments and reply to them accordingly, instead of copy-pasting them here. Your paragraphs of response after each quote by "stupid" will be a new number. =</p>
<p>I encourage everyone to open up a new web browser to read your original post along with my new replies side by side. I will go through your text one sentence at a time, and respond to everything in the same order in which you mentioned it. Just ask if you don't understand what I'm replying to.</p>
<p>And feel free to use the same system when responding. In fact, I would strongly encourage it.</p>
<p>Overview:
Next time that I take the time to answer your post in order, numbered, and organized, please do the same for me. A messy debate does not benefit anyone and is impossible to follow. Not to mention we don't have to waste our time trying to figure out what point corresponds to which. Organize yourself next time.</p>
<p>Let's begin</p>
<ol>
<li>a. You are a radical. Your ideas go above and beyond logic. l33twinkie, tlaktan, etc. responded logically to the China/Taiwan arguments - you did not; you regularly insult the Chinese population instead of addressing the actual argument. For example, while someone intelligent says that an amphibious Chinese invasion of Taiwan would be unlikely and gives reasons why, you respond randomly saying that Chinese people are all evil nationalists bent on breaking into American universities and conquering America from within. </li>
</ol>
<p>That is why you belittle your side of the argument and detract from those that you would otherwise agree with. Their association with you makes them appear unreasonable.</p>
<p>b. There is no "comedy of the words" here. I'm speaking my mind, as are you. If you cannot answer my point with logic, don't make up random crap like "comedy of the words", and much of the other unwarranted stuff you say later on in this comment. </p>
<p>c. Then you proceed to say that I "haven't made any point at all." On the contrary, I think you're the only one who misses my points. I would welcome an opinion outside of mine and stardragon's on this issue: Have I made any point whatsoever? My point was that I believe stardragon is an ignorant elitist, and I hope I got that across quite early on. </p>
<p>d. As for my "high Chinese arrogance" - give me warrants for that comment and I'll argue it. But as it stands now, that's a complete racial stereotype, unwarranted, and outright bigotry. If your purpose was to insult me, you at least succeeded in spurring a response. If your purpose was to offend me, you failed miserably, because I won't take offense to something so ridiculously out of the blue with no reasoning whatsoever. Congrats.</p>
<ol>
<li>a. You're right, I haven't read this entire debate, although I think I've gone through about 2/3 of it so far. I apologize. It's rather lengthy. =\ I simply assumed that you must consider yourself unyieldingly American, because otherwise you'd have hypocrisy running out of your pores. Looks like the latter was true after all.</li>
</ol>
<p>b. You delve into my semantics but you miss my actual point. Let me dumb this down for you. You are a foreigner. You criticize foreigners and advocate countries sealing their borders to immigrants. Thus: you are a blatant hypocrite. Hypocrites have no credibility. The conclusion? You have no credibility. This will be reinforced later as well, numerous times.</p>
<p>c. My verbage failed? Not to sound stuck up, but at least cujoe found it amusing, so my time hasn't been a total waste. And I get a kick out of it. So, in short, no.</p>
<ol>
<li>a. You called me "American, but you even don't feel it." That's completely unwarranted also, like nearly all of your 'points'. I am American. I do feel it. If you're going to pretend like you know me, at least back it up with something better than that. Not only does it not make sense, it doesn't even link to any further point. I guess it might have something to do with the American history bullcrap later on, refer to point d for my analysis of that. </li>
</ol>
<p>b. I am not a "Chinese spy who lives in the USA for a short time". I've lived in America for 13 years and have no intention of ever moving back to China. Don't make accusations without some sort of background. Seriously, you waste everyone's time with unwarranted statements. Thus refer to point c,</p>
<p>c. You are completely full of crap.</p>
<p>d. I just spent an hour reading my textbook for AP United States History before getting on CC. I have a 95% in that class and am studying hard for the AP exam, as well as the SATII, in May. I plan to major in Economics, Law, or PoliSci, all fields with strong ties to history. So don't make up random crap. I know my American history, possibly better than you do. Based on my previous posts, you had no grounds whatsoever to tell me that I didn't know American history. That is why I called you "stupid", because you jump to ridiculous conclusions like that. Think before you post.</p>
<p>e. Show me where in any of my posts I said anything remotely related to "China must overpower Taiwan", anything about "Chinese dynasties", or most interestingly, "something else, only another Chinese can find out". If you cannot, this point is also total crap. Don't waste my time. If you're gonna make up random garbage, keep it to yourself. </p>
<p>For the record, I have very little knowledge of the China/Taiwan situation. All I know is what I've heard on a few news clips and read in this thread. I said this once already, about 20-30 posts back, in this thread. Thus at the moment I don't believe I'm qualified to make a truly informed decision, and form an accurate opinion. I'm posting here because I strongly disagree with stardragon's fanatical ideology, his ridiculous lack of reasoning, and his overt racism. I feel compelled, as a person of Chinese heritage, to fully and thoroughly dispell the insults and insinuations stardragon has made, no matter how ridiculous they are. </p>
<p>Continued in the next post. Apparently there's a limit to how many characters can be in one post. Interesting.</p>
<p>Continuing with stardragon's paragraph beginning "Ha-ha"</p>
<ol>
<li>a. If you think that I should return to China, then you should return to wherever you came from. According to your own hypocritical logic. That's right, you make no sense whatsoever. </li>
</ol>
<p>b. You asked, "Why do you think I'm a racist." </p>
<p>Dictionary.com says: rac·ism - Discrimination or prejudice based on race. <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism%5B/url%5D">http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=racism</a></p>
<p>You discriminate and are prejudiced against Chinese people. Thus you practice racism and are racist. There is no way around this. You are a racist.</p>
<p>c. You said "I like Taiwanese, Japanese, South Koreans and so and so on. But I dislike Chinese." </p>
<p>..Right. Hitler liked many Aryans, Norwegians, and French (based on their genetic makeup due to similar ancestral ties) but he absolutely disliked those Jews. Think before you make comments like the above quote that portray your overt racism. How can you logically say that you dislike all Chinese people? There's over a billion of them. How many have you taken the time to get to know? Or can we assume that all of them are evil, like Hitler assumed all Jews were evil. Way to go.</p>
<p>d. Then you said something about the Chinese proliferating their ideology and culture worldwide. Once again - you're a "foreighner". You proliferated yourself worldwide. Don't be overtly hypocritical. Way to suck, dude. =</p>
<p>Furthermore, we live in the year 2005. Everybody proliferates their ideology and culture worldwide. There are McDonalds in China, and there are Chinese restaurants in America. You'll have to deal with it. In a global age, we cannot go back to complete isolationism, which you seem to advocate. There are over a billion people in China. Are you going to just pretend that they don't exist?</p>
<p>And if you want to talk about spreading ideology and culture, America is definitely the world leader in that. Not only commercially, ie America's juggernaut worldwide corporations, but also culturally. American holidays are frequently celebrated in foreign countries. You don't see them complaining about it. Neither should you.</p>
<p>e. Go ahead and join the KKK. They hate lots of people - especially back in the early 1920s, they were anti-foreigners, anti-Catholic, et cetera. I'm sure if you approached your local Klansman (pfft) and revealed your deep-seated, ilogical hate of the Chinese, he'd be pleased to let you in because you'd fit right in. As long as you hold a mask over your face, because ya know, they're very judgmental and not tolerant of people of other ethnicities. Sound familiar?</p>
<p>f. Next you proceed to say you "are not going to be a racist in the future". Well, great, that's the whole point of me being here, isn't it? To get rid of your illogical racial bigotry. When can I expect you to follow through on that promise and end your anti-Chinese spree? I'm inclined to stop this reply right here and watch you struggle with this promise, but I figure you'd make an excuse like "it's the fault of the Chinese, because there are too many of them".</p>
<p>g. I'm not "showing off myself". This is my conversational tone and writing style. Seriously. If I come off as overly ostentatious, then I sincerely apologize, because that's not at all my goal. My goal is to ridicule stardragon and his logic, or lack thereof.</p>
<ol>
<li>You said: "So you conclude that I'm stupid because you think 'I am also from America and a foreign spy', but I'm not from America, as I said before, so all your logic ruins. "</li>
</ol>
<p>I'm not even sure how to approach this last point. Maybe you just misread my post, or maybe you don't have command of the English language. Perhaps you don't understand that sentence structure - I said, if your reasoning concludes that I'm a "spy", then you are obviously also a "spy". If I am not a "spy", which is what I'm leaning towards right now, then I won't insinuate that you're a "spy" either. </p>
<p>And no, my logic does not "ruin" anything...except you. Oh snapppp :-/</p>
<ol>
<li>This isn't directed at me, and frankly I have no idea what either of you are talking about, so I'll end it here. I'd like to apologize if I was incoherent, but it's past 3:20am here and I'm running on very little sleep and no caffeine. =P</li>
</ol>
<p>Once again, if you do choose to answer this, I ask that you answer in the same format that I do. It would be easier on both of us and keep this thread at least somewhat coherent and readable.</p>
<p>So that's it for now. Look, I'll offer you a way out. Just don't reply here, or on CC ever again, with anything overtly racist against anyone. If you promise to do this, I'll leave you alone and I'll do my best to have others do the same. Seriously consider the offer before firing up the ol' racist machine and pumping out another standard "all damn Chinese people try to take over world" reply.</p>
<p>Peace and potato chips.</p>
<p>You really think that I will reply to this crap? I have two papers, one projects, ten geography and six mathematical problems to do before 1st April, and one essay to write to 31st March. I have no reason to argue with you. Why?</p>
<p>1) You ignore all my comments about everything you have written ridiculously. You want that all readers forget them. </p>
<p>2) Do you think that I'm frightened with word "racist"? I just know that I'm not racist, because I'm Asian. Do you understand this? Or my crappy Engish doesn't let you do it? Why do you ignore my this point? Because it ruins all your "stradragon-is-a-racist" point. You think that comparison with Hitler will ridicule me. I hate Hitler, and I don't take your statements seriously.</p>
<p>3) You know a lot of information about American history. But you fail to feel it. You proved it with your own words. Maybe I know less about it, but I feel it stronger.</p>
<p>4) You behave as if you discuss something great, something that will change the world drastically. But you're just arguing with me, you want to be a "hero-who-was-tortured-by-stupid-racists". </p>
<p>5) You want to attract attention on yourself, belittling me. Isn't every Chinese doing it?</p>
<p>Conclusion: Do you seriously hope that I'll reply you?</p>
<p>You want to major in econ, hist or politsci, but I want to major in Sciences (natural). </p>
<p>You're a talker. I posted one average message, you replied with two biggest possibel messages.</p>
<p>When you become a politician, for example, USA will have to fight against China, but such people like you will betray America. Can you fight against China when needed? NO. Can you do anything against China? NO. Can you declare that USA will be a part of China? YES.
That's why I'm for forbidding such people like to study in the greatest American univs.</p>
<p>Umm it is possible to be asian and be a racist against your own kind...
the problem with Asians is that we are so divided in everything we do. we never ever back each other up. people in the US talk a lot about asian pride, but when it comes to fighting for your right for basic liberties, many Asians just disappear and don't put up a fight because they're scared. i think asians in general have to learn from the jews, who stood strong together and are now probably one of the most powerful groups of people in the world.
i think jimmyeatworld17 has given some valid points against stardragon's arguments, that is, if you can call them arguments. it's a shame though, people like stardragon will never understand and are not open minded enough to look at issues from both sides.
i myself am ethnically chinese but i have lived all over the world before (the middle east, asia, europe, australia), and i can definitely see why taiwan is the center of such great controversy. for taiwanese, they want to be their own country. for chinese, they think taiwan is part of china because it was during the Qing dynasty. for the US and japan, any sort of strong chinese influence is a threat. i think politics is very dirty, and the intentions that we the public get from our politicians are very different from what the politicians actually have in mind.
furthermore, i don't think stardragon has any good points because he is basically stating the reasons why he thinks his own land (xinjiang) should be independent, and he's using the example of taiwan. xinjiang and taiwan are at totally different ends of the spectrum... in every way possible.
anyways... lets face the facts. we're young adults and right now we don't have the power to do anything... so let's take a deep breath and get on with life. this whole issue is just speculation...</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>I don't think that the situation of Taiwan and Xinjiang are similar. But they both suffered from Chinese imperialism, and Xinjiang continues to suffer. I just don't want entire world to be in the situation Xinjiang is now.</p>
<p>though, sometimes such people like us do revoultions and change the politicians' minds. Who knows?</p>
<p>first off, i don't think you have any say whatsoever on who should go to college in the US and who shouldn't.</p>
<p>secondly, there is no such thing as a true american. not even george bush. his ancestors came from europe... so does that mean he will turn over the US to the EU? i highly doubt it. please don't call people who consider themselves american as spies or non-americans or traitors based on their skin color and ethnicity. </p>
<p>thirdly, just because an american believes that taiwan is a part of china does not make them a traitor in any way. please read the policy that washington has towards the china-taiwan issue. the US government maintains that there is only one China, the PRC. what china is proposing is a 'One Country, Two Systems' policy, much like the one that was implemented when Hong Kong was returned to the mainland by the UK. People in Hong Kong rule themselves, they have their own government and chief executive, and the last time i checked, people in HK were still making a ton of money, doing whatever they wanted and in good shape. If you actually visit HK, you probably wouldn't even know it was ruled by "Communist China". The same thing would happen to Taiwan... China wouldn't change it at all. </p>
<p>fourthly, i think you have a misconstrued perception of China. Have you ever been to the big cities, like Beijing, Shanghai, Tianjin or Chengdu? I live in London right now, but I can assure you that those cities in "Communist China" are so much more technologically advanced than London is and there is NO trace of communism at all. China is now very capitalistic, and people are very happy. It is only a matter of time before that wealth trickles down to places further off from the big cities, like your own Xinjiang. I lived in Beijing for NINE years, and it is true that when I first came I was very shocked... but now it is an amazing place! When Beijing hosts the Olympics in 2008, I think the whole world will be stunned at how beautiful China is and what a good job they can do. china is growing at an unprecedented rate, and i think it would be a shame if people like yourself miss out on all the opportunities it will bring to asians.</p>
<p>lastly, i highly doubt the US will go to war with China. The US has first-class weapon technology, a better army, navy and airforce... but that does not mean they will win. look at what happened in vietnam, somalia, the middle east... war is never easy and victory is not easily attained. let us also not forget that china has the largest standing army of 2 million, and if china went to war with the US over taiwan, the number of chinese who would volunteer for the army would be astronomical... whereas in the US, who wants to fight ANOTHER war over land that is not even part of the US? also, China needs the US and the US needs China for trade. Who supplies all the American companies with textiles, raw materials and products for incredibly cheap prices? China. Who is willing to buy those things from China? the US. If China and the US were to go to war, trade would be disrupted and in the end, both countries would no longer be world powers. That possibility is too risky for the US and China. At most, the US would try to intimidate China by sending over ships, weapons, aid and some servicemen. plus, do you know what is preventing the US dollar from slipping right now? asian bankers is the answer. they are buying into the US dollar so that the US economy doesn't fall apart. If the asian bankers were to just get rid of all their US dollars, the US economy would be in deep trouble. My point is, China and the US are too close... and they would never go to war with each other.<br>
so stardragon, if you want to discuss your real reasons for supporting taiwan (you want xinjiang independence), please create another thread and stop inferring things which you have no or little knowledge of.</p>
<p>Yeah, China is growing very rapidly. That's why I'm so afraid of its future influence. I think USA MUST fight against China beforehand, until China becomes the world superpower.</p>
<p>I am enjoing to see how nationalistic Chinese are. If I'm Asian that doesn't mean that I'm Chinese as being French isn't being German. But you try to unite whole RACE, so who are racists so far? Whites now don't even discuss it, unlike you.</p>
<p>
[quote]
thirdly, just because an american believes that taiwan is a part of china does not make them a traitor in any way. please read the policy that washington has towards the china-taiwan issue. the US government maintains that there is only one China, the PRC. what china is proposing is a 'One Country, Two Systems' policy, much like the one that was implemented when Hong Kong was returned to the mainland by the UK. People in Hong Kong rule themselves, they have their own government and chief executive, and the last time i checked, people in HK were still making a ton of money, doing whatever they wanted and in good shape. If you actually visit HK, you probably wouldn't even know it was ruled by "Communist China". The same thing would happen to Taiwan... China wouldn't change it at all.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>The autonomy in Hong Kong is not one at all -- almost every single high executive decision must pass through the approval of the Chinese government. It is not one country, two systems, but rather one country, one subsystem -- if you remember a news report a week or two ago, Hong Kong's chief .. who was it, Tung Chee Hwa? I mean, come on, anyone who has to worry about China on their backs.. well, </p>
<p>That's not quite autonomy, now is it.</p>
<p>high executive decisions must always pass through the approval of a higher central government... thats what happens in the US as well! </p>
<p>stardragon, why are you so pro-USA? they obviously don't care about you and your people. why? because xinjiang adds no real value to them. the US could not care less about a free xinjiang.
when i talked about asian pride, i was referring to the many asian pride organizations in the US which are composed of overseas chinese, not including those from vietnam, cambodia, korea, japan, etc.
Being French isn't being German - you are right, however countries in Europe have cooperated with each other to form the EU, an international body that can stand their own against the US or any other country. You are mistaken about those in Europe... they too have European pride.</p>
<p>And tlaktan, if you look at your source, you are quoting from the BBC, which is naturally going to be anti-Chinese, as the UK thinks it has done a much better job governing Hong Kong than China has. Your argument would be better if you had unbiased statistics.</p>
<p>
[quote]
stardragon, why are you so pro-USA? They obviously don't care about you and your people. why? because Xingjian adds no real value to them. The US could not care less about a free Xingjian.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I am concerned not only about the independence of my people. I also think about freedom, human rights and social mobility, which mostly are supported by America. When I tell something pro-American and anti-Chinese, I think firstly about it, about slavery of "personality" in new Chinese-like society.</p>
<p>I am against any kind of "prides", especially Asian. I understand black pride in USA, because they were really discriminated by majority. Remember, though, the most of crimes were committed by Mexicans and Afro-Americans, but that's out of our discussion. I also understand white pride in some ways, their population decreases and they don't want to lose their previous mightiness and influence. But Asian? There is no any reason to create such organization. </p>
<p>Every pride is racist, I don't know why "White pride" is racism, and "Asian pride" is for freedom. They both are extremist and racist. I hate something like "white[black, Asian] pride - world wide".</p>
<p>i think you are being racist when you say "most of crimes were committed by Mexicans and Afro-Americans"... what the hell are you smoking???????</p>
<p>I just tell what I hear in my country from American sources of information. This is not my fault that I'm misinformed.</p>
<p>Let's keep far from such quick conclusions. I think we're now discussing properly, without personal insults.</p>
<p>And I'm not smoking at all, btw</p>
<p>I'm quoting BBC, yes, but I'm also citing fact. Our executive does not answer to the United Kingdom, as we well know. However, Hong Kong's "autonomy" is not autonomous at all, as it still reports to an Executive body.</p>
<p>Do our states report ultimately to President Bush? No. Hong Kong, even as a principality or a province/state -- wrestles too much control over to the principal executive powers of China.</p>
