Ultimate Goal: Board certification in specialty of choice. Scenarios.

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
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<p>Don't miss the forest for the trees!
Assumptions: Middle class household, not qualified for financial aid based on need, not URM.
Ultimate Goal/Eye on the ball: Board certification in the specialty of choice, with as little debt as possible.</p>

<p>Possible scenarios:
Ideal A: Top tier UG (HYPS), money, high GPA/MCAT, top tier medical school, AOA (medical honor society)/high USMLE scores, great Dean's and recommendation letters, and leading to coveted spot in a highly competitive specialty (eg Dermatology) at a highly ranked residency program in that specialty. Great inservice scores when compared nationally. Board certication, awesome fellowship and stellar academic career/private practice.</p>

<p>Reality 1: Top tier UG without merit scholarship, middling GPA (like a respectable 3.2 at Princeton), good MCAT. Acceptance to a mid tier medical school. AOA status, high USMLE score, good letters, the rest as above. Notice mid tier medical school, but same outcome regarding specialty match, program match and stellar career. Big money well-spent.
Reality 2: Top tier UG w/o merit scholarship, low GPA, fair to low MCAT, acceptance to low tier school. No AOA, average Dean's and recommendation letters, match to less competitive specialty and/or rejection by competitive specialty. But board certification nevertheless. Need to know how often this happens.
Reality 3: Top tier UG w/o merit scholarship and lots of debt. First time true competition, weeded out, low GPA, fair to low MCAT. Difficulty in medical school acceptance or change career field not by choice. Worse case scenario. If persistent/still committed, eventual acceptance to a low tier school, way less competive than the previously offered combined spot. Regret/self-doubt. Need to know how often this happens.</p>

<p>The cautious route:
Reality 4: Upper echelon combined program (eg NU, R/B, Brown), stress free true liberal arts education, no need for resume padding. No MCAT, low GPA requirement. No merit financial aid (school philosophy: lure of combined program requires no further incentive). Allowed to take some med sch basic science courses. Settled in by time med sch matriculation (3-4 yrs into program). Did some research, excelled in med sch. Great Dean's and recommendation letters. Stellar USMLE scores. Acceptance to coveted specialty of choice, in program of choice. Board certification and gravy life. Second best scenario.
Reality 5: Upper echelon combined program, middling undergrad GPA not affecting reserved spot, no MCAT. Automatic matriculation into med program. Some freedom to explore (field of study and travel abroad). Adequate USMLE scores, somewhat competitive specialty in a fair residency program. Hard work, board certification. Best scenario where limited potential leads to a commendable career. Low stress UG years and most common subgroup.
Reality 6: Entered combined program, no interest in medicine and changed major. But UG school excels in other programs. No harm done.
Reality 7: As above, but UG school is low tier/less prestigious. Middling GPA due to no interest. Changed major or transferred out. Worse case scenario, wasted time & money.</p>

<p>Not too cautious route:
Ideal B: Mid to lower tier UG with full ride. Declined both top tier college and combined programs due to cost. Self starter/assured and mature. Stellar GPA, commendable MCAT. Ample research. Multiple medical school acceptances, some with merit scholarships (schools have equal or higher rank than previously declined combined programs). Can be ideal scenario for many.
It is better to think of a medical career as a marathon, with hurdles. The cream rises to the top. Setbacks may actually open new doors. Consistency is key.</p>

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<p>@golfblackhole, WOW! It’s a great post and very good analysis. It certainly helps those who are still vacillating in their decision-making by May 1st. Thank you!</p>

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<p>Well,
Your goals are in line with my D’s - “Board certification in the specialty of choice, with as little debt as possible”.</p>

<p>Here is her route (real, not hypothetical):</p>

<ol>
<li>Greduated #1 from private prep. HS</li>
<li>went to non-accelerated bs/md at state school (non-flagship) that allows to apply out while retaining a spot at Med. School in the program. Full tuition Merit scholarship. </li>
<li> got very high college GPA, decent MCAT, applied out to 7 additional Med. Schools (wide range, state thru top 20). (nobody else has applied out of D’s bs/md)</li>
<li>Got accepted to 3 additional Med. Schools, couple in top 20 (although ranking have changed since then). No Merit scholarships (I do not count $2k /year from state school, just not enough to seriously consider). Planning to attend private Med. School of her choice (had hard time choosing). We (parents) are planning to pay since we did not pay her UG tuition. However, we will take one year at a time, all loans require acceptance/decline on yearly basis anyway. No loans first year, I can say that much.</li>
<li>So far so good, much higher outcome than expected, tons of awards/recognitions at her UG. Med. School Dean of admission indicated to her and her pre-med advisor that he is thrilled to have her in his class and almost apologized for no Merit awards, as he said they were well deserved. D. is equally thrilled to be attending there. Her dream is Derm. - the hardest specialty to get in. So, she is open and flexible, knowing that Derm. might not happen.</li>
</ol>

<p>I am not sure if my D.'s experience apply to you but her goal has been the same as yours.</p>

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<p>I applaud both of you for having a longterm plan and sticking to it.
This takes a lot of hard work and intestinal fortitude.
Keep us posted on her progress and also on this forum, as there are lessons to be learned.</p>

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<p>This was also posted on SDN: [Ultimate</a> Goal: Board certification in specialty of choice. Scenarios. | hSDN | Student Doctor Network](<a href=“Ultimate Goal: Board certification in specialty of choice. Scenarios. | Student Doctor Network”>Ultimate Goal: Board certification in specialty of choice. Scenarios. | Student Doctor Network)</p>

<p>“I’d like to advise all you high school kids out there to go ahead and ignore pretty much everything that results from this thread.” -MilkmanAl</p>

<p>I agree. I don’t really see what the point of this thread actually is.</p>

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<p>“I agree. I don’t really see what the point of this thread actually is.”</p>

<p>-If you are not interested, why you are wasting your time here? You are contradicting yourself.</p>

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<p>Because, genius, I’m quite annoyed that this person actually believes MCAT score and performance in undergrad alone solely determine your career trajectory. lol</p>

<p>Don’t be mad because you actually found value in this thread. </p>

<p><em>chuckles and walks away</em></p>

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<p>“Because, genius, I’m quite annoyed that this person actually believes MCAT score and performance in undergrad alone solely determine your career trajectory. LOL.
Don’t be mad because you actually found value in this thread.” </p>

<p>Let’s not get personal. High MCAT and high GPA are often prerequisites. Without them, your intangibles don’t matter.
Anything constructive and knowledgeable to add?</p>

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<p>XelbMS
Junior Member</p>

<p>Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 173
I follow my genitals. Y’know, the motion of the ocean.</p>

<p>XelbMS
Junior Member</p>

<p>Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 173
Quote:
Doesn’t your program have minimum requirements? D’s program had minimum requirement of 3.45/27. Only about 50% of kids in her program historically were meeting these requirements. Yes, they are much lower than regular route, they are very reasonable, but still require lot of work.
-Of course. It’s a B.S./M.D. program, after all. They can’t have their students slacking off completely. Our program requires a 3.5/24. Keeping a 3.5 isn’t too difficult, and if I end up with a GPA below that, I can retake the course that brought it down. Also, a 24 on the MCAT is the national average. If I can’t manage to keep a 3.5 GPA (which most med schools want you to match or exceed when going through the normal route) and score on or above the national average for the MCAT, I don’t think medical school would be for me, nor would I have a decent chance of getting into medical school through the normal route anyway. Of course, I’m not worried since I don’t intend to slack off on day 1. </p>

<p>If anything, I feel bad for students in BS/MD programs that require ridiculously high GPA’s and a 30+ on the MCAT.</p>

<p>Quote:
Only about 50% of kids in her program historically were meeting these requirements. Yes, they are much lower than regular route, they are very reasonable, but still require lot of work.
-Are those statistics based on people who failed to attain a certain GPA or a certain MCAT score? Regardless, the path to becoming a physician requires A LOT of work. Nobody is denying that. By being accepted into these programs, we have proven that we are more than capable of going above and beyond the minimum expectations of the program itself. If one cannot handle the course load needed in order to succeed at medical school, then you shouldn’t be a pre-med to begin with (This goes double for people who aren’t in BS/MD’s).</p>

<p>Quote:
So, kids in D’s program could not say for sure that they had “A guaranteed medical school acceptance”, although they had much better chance than regular route pre-meds.
-Most successful pre-meds who are dedicated enough and actually succeed in college would kill for having a chance to only attain a 3.45-3.5 and a 24-27 on the MCAT with a high chance of matriculating into an allopathic school in the United States. </p>

<p>Quote:
I cannot imagine retaining a spot in bs/md with GPA=2.0 (for the sake of example).
-I know of a B.S./D.O. program with PCOM (Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine) that only requires that you maintain a 3.2/21. That is the lowest I’ve ever seen. </p>

<p>Quote:
I also would like to point out that name calling is not necessary to prove your point.
-They are what they are. </p>

<p>My original post is from someone who has practiced medicine for more than 20 years, with a daughter who has been admitted into pretty good UG schools and higher tier combined programs. I took her to everyone of those interviews. I don’t want her to be enamored with the UG rankings, and forget the ultimate goal. Since indicated that you applied to four combined programs, and was accepted into one of them, you do have some experience. But you have not gone through college, medical school, residency, fellowship, and participated on admission committees of college, residency, fellowship, as well as in hospital administration.</p>

<p>MiamiDAP “I agree. I don’t really see what the point of this thread actually is.”</p>

<p>-If you are not interested, why you are wasting your time here? You are contradicting yourself.</p>

<p>I appreciate MiamiDAP’s wide-ranging posts over the years. They are not just limited to combined programs. I did finally read some of your opinions, two of which I have pasted above. I happen to value those posts more.</p>

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<p>golfblackhole,
Thanks! I wish you the best decision based on your personal situation. </p>

<p>XelbMS
“Because, genius, I’m quite annoyed that this person actually believes MCAT score and performance in undergrad alone solely determine your career trajectory. lol”</p>

<p>-The fact is that MCAT score and UG GPA are going to be your ticket to interview or you being rejcted. After that, they may or may not look at your EC’s and social skills based on interview. I have never claimed to know everything. My suggestions are based on my D’s experiences both at combined bs/md and also applying out “regular route”. Others will have different opinions based on their experiences. So, arguing or being annoyed does not accomplish anything, we just sharing opinions and as expected having different ones. It is up to OP to listen to one or another or none.</p>