<p>My brother loved economics, majored in it a Michigan, despised everything about it, and switched to Sociology. Seems that complaints about UM econ are not uncommon...</p>
<p>Titan, I suspect your brother's problem was with Economics, not with the department at Michigan. Economics is not for everybody.</p>
<h2>Columbia University's intro to Econ has 400 students. Northwestern, Stanford and Duke have intro level classes with 200 or so students.</h2>
<p>Yes, but if UM is as good as you make it sound, they should be trying to address the problem, not giving a crap what other schools are doing. Limiting classes to 100(still is a lot) would only help the students, which is what a not-for-profit university is supposed to do, right?</p>
<p>There is minimal difference between a 100 and 300-student lecture.
And as I said, the discussions have 20-30 people in them...</p>
<p>Just so you know, an econ class consists of lectures and discussions...</p>
<p>I agree with pancakes. You're not going to get any more personal attention in a 100 student lecture than you would in a 300 student lecture. The discussions are really where you get the personal attention from GSI's, where you can ask questions, get help on hw, etc.</p>
<p>Yeah, well it won't help during class(reducing class size to 100), but after hours there will be less congestion to see the prof at his/her office to get extra help.</p>
<p>I think your logic is flawed.</p>
<p>First, the same amount of students will still be taking the courses-- there will just be more lectures. Therefore, the same amount of students will attend office hours.</p>
<p>Then, you are faced with two different situations, in order of likeliness:</p>
<ol>
<li> It is unlikely that they will have more teachers for the additional lectures-- rather, they will just ask the current teachers to give additional lectures. Therefore, there will be no additional professors to hold office hours. In addition, they will likely have less time to hold office hours since more time will be spent lecturing.</li>
</ol>
<p>or</p>
<ol>
<li> They will get more teachers for the additional lectures. In this case, the teachers will already be teaching many other classes-- they just add a few lectures on to this. This means that the teachers now have to hold office hours for a few more lectures, and will have less time overall to hold office hours, and have pretty full offices anyways (from other classes and obligations). If you disagree with this statement, then go to an economics professor not teaching your course and ask them for help. Problem solved.</li>
</ol>
<p>Here is a counterargument for an anticipated argument:
Argument: Hire more GSIs to have more office hours.
Counter: The number of students in the course remains the same, as does the number of students in each GSIs discussion section. Therefore, there will be no need to hire more GSIs and no need for GSIs to hold additional office hours.</p>
<p>The only real way to solve this problem is by hiring brand new teachers.</p>
<p>Most importantly, however, you are assuming that office hours are congested in the first place. It is interesting that you are trying to criticize something you haven't experienced and don't know much about. Yes, the lectures are large, but the office hours are not bad.</p>
<p>From personal experience, my GSI's office hours (which are always scheduled) are usually full (3-8 other people) during exam periods, and more or less empty beforehand. My GSI, however, has always scheduled additional office hours during exam weeks (Friday, Saturday, Sunday), especially upon request. This probably depends on your GSI.</p>
<p>My professor's office, though, has been completely empty (except for the professor :D) when I walked in asking for homework help.</p>
<h2>Exams are ridiculously hard. To learn the material you basically have to teach yourself. Dozens of students show up to office hours and its difficult to get more individual attention. Most professors aren't concerned if you're doing poorly.</h2>
<p>OP's post</p>
<p>Yes, you are right, I have not experienced this first hand, but as a potential student, this worries me a little bit.</p>
<p>Wait, so in point #2, you say the teachers will already be teaching other classes. But what if the Econ department expands, hiring more profs, who are new to help reduce size and increase access to office hours(which apparently is a problem for some people more than others). They teach the classes that are full now, reducing them a little.</p>
<p>But I guess it depends on the prof and different people will have different experiences.</p>
<p>Yeah, of course you should be worried as a potential student. At the end of my long post (Post #47), I said, "The only real way to solve this problem is by hiring brand new teachers."</p>
<p>Perhaps I have been lucky. Perhaps the OP has been unlucky.</p>
<p>Since this seems like a common problem at many universities such as Michigan, Stanford, Duke, and Columbia (and at Princeton, according to my brother), it is interesting to wonder why the problem has not yet been fixed.</p>
<p>Because the university doesn't see it as a problem. It's a weeder course, on introductory material. If you need to be babied through it, you're probably not cut out for the higher level classes.</p>
<p>I got A+s in 101 and 102.</p>
<p>But that's a good point... I guess it's like Math 295, huh? 45->17 people in one semester!</p>
<p>Maybe some people who continue are miserable because they are forcing themselves to learn something they are not naturally good at (or naturally terrible at and they just want to major in business/econ for the money). Perhaps they need a tutor, not office hours.</p>
<p>Intro classes to popular majors (uch as Biology, Econ, History, Political Science, Psychology and Sociology) are always going to be large (200+ students), regardless of the college. Unless one attends a LAC with fewer than 3,000 undergrads, classes in those majors are going to be large. Michigan is no different from other elite private or public universities. It is a myth that state schools have MUCH larger classes. Yes, on average, classes will be 10%-20% larger than at private counterparts, but that hardly makes a difference. Research universities have faculities that have three priorities that will ALWAYS trump undergraduates. Those threeriorities will consume most of their time. What are those two priorities:</p>
<p>1) Research
2) Publications
3) Graduate students who's thesis and research they supervise.</p>
<p>Even faculty at elite private universities with smallish undergraduate student bodies cannot escape their priorities. Columbia, Harvard and Stanford have fewer than 10,000 undergraduate students, but they have 10,000-15,000 graduate students. Chicago only has 5,000 or so undergrads, but it also has close to 10,000 graduate students. Northwestern and Penn also have huge graduate schools. Cornell and Duke have 6,000 or so graduate students. </p>
<p>Those schools, like Michigan, Cal and UVa have faculties that will never provide undergrads with the kind of "attention" people will expect from an elite university. However, that is not just a weakness but also a stength. It forces their students to take initiative and self-reliance...two qualities that are essential to success in life. They also expose undergrads to incredible research findings and opportunities. </p>
<p>Finally, and this is very important. Who needs a world-leading, path-breaking professor to teach them an intro-level course? PhD students and younger faculty who serve as TAs are themselves among the most brilliant minds on Earth and can teach undergrads as effectively as is needed. It is an honor to learn with such brilliant young minds.</p>
<p>Not that I've read this whole thread, but I'm pretty sure dilksy was referring to 401.</p>
<p>What grade should you have in the weeder course (401) to indicate that you aren't cut out for the higher level courses? If you don't get an A or A- should you consider econ as a major, out of the question, or is a B or B- still indicative that you can cut it?</p>
<p>I've only made it through 401, but I think that if you worked your butt off and only got a low B or B-, maybe you should reconsider. The material isn't really that hard...most of it is just taking derivatives. If you got a high B, it is probably ok, as only 20% of the class gets an A. (Which makes me wonder, does the department have a different breakdown for what percent of students get an A for each class? Econ 101/102 were 25%, my 300-level classes were 33%, and now 401 was 20%)</p>
<p>I took 401 this fall and it was certainly a b**** of a class to get through. I, and all the people I ever talked to in the class, wholeheartedly agree that the professor was horrible. His lectures were unclear and he went too fast- every time. There will be a new professor this winter so the class could be entirely different (hopefully for the better), but here is how I did well:</p>
<p>I didn't even beat the average on the 1st midterm, but I destroyed the 2nd midterm and did very well on the final, and ended up eeking out an A. The reason for my latter successes was, after the 1st exam, I realized I had to learn the problem sets on my own. I thoroughly read the solutions to each of problem sets, going over most every problem for as long as it took to understand it. Since the exams mimicked the problem sets, I did well. Now I will add here that I am also on track to at least minor in math, and there is a decent chance I end up majoring in (financial) math. My strength in math made the actual calculations in 401 trivial, but that didn't mean the concepts and logic were tough.</p>
<p>So for future 401 students: Assuming the new professor teaches the class similarly to my professor, to get an A you must focus on the problem sets. Study them until everything makes sense. If something doesn't, go to your GSI's office hours, not the professor's. If your GSI's office hours are too crowded, ask your GSI if you can schedule a different time to meet. They are normally very willing to do this.</p>
<p>I took 401 with Hal Varian. He left Michigan in the 90s to become the Dean of Cal's Econ department. He was not a great instructor, but he was the author of the Intermediate Microeconomics book that we used back in the day.</p>
<p>401 is definitely a tough class.</p>
<p>401 is the toughest class Econ majors will probably take. So anything above a B- is fine.</p>
<p>Hmmm would i have to take those 400 level classes if I were to minor in econ?</p>