UMich accepts a lot of people from my school

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
21

<p>EDIT - Ha, so maybe I'm not going to edit my first post. So much for not having extremely lengthy responses. I hate the 20 minute time limit.</p>

<p>I wrote an extremely lengthy post about why Quincy4 is wrong, but I've decided to revise it. So, simply put, Quincy, your post reeks of extreme bitterness with UM and the UM student body. You wouldn't be the first person on this board who has that problem. You are basically simply relying on some very offensive stereotypes of Michigan students in order to reply to our mild and defensible statements about UM being a stronger academic school. Keep in mind that it's not all that hard to play that game. If you want to call UM students pretentious, arrogant, and deluded, I could easily reply by saying that I don't think most MSU students know what the word 'deluded' or 'pretentious' means, or that our students at the very least don't end five nights a week by blacking out. If you're interested in having an actual comparison between the two schools, let's hear your arguments for it. Frankly, I don't believe the bright students and parents who believe MSU is a better school overall and picked it between the two for that reason really exist, and I've certainly had my share of experience with students admitted to both schools and their parents. </p>

<p>I would also appreciate it if you could keep the strawmen to a minimum. I never said that students who pick MSU over UM for a specific reason relating to a program think that MSU is overall "crap or mediocre." Simply that it is not as strong academically. I hope you see the difference between those two statements.</p>

<p>Finally, the nicer campus does not decide the strength of the institution's academics. (Lucky for MIT.)</p>

22

<p>Quincy, from a purely statistical point of view, the gap between MSU and Michigan is equal to the gap between Michigan and Harvard. If you think such gaps are inconsequential, I would not object. ;)</p>

<p>Seriously though, Michigan is in the same peer group as Cal, Columbia, Cornell, Northwestern and Penn.</p>

23

<p>What do you mean by gap, Alexandre? Purely statistical? Perception? USN&WR?... What do mean by same peer group? Grad school-wise? </p>

<p>tetrahedr0n, I have no bitterness toward U-M, I just like to correct misstatements and perceptions. I very much respect U-M, as I've said many, many times, it's one of the finest universities, certainly public universities in the US. And, as I've said, it has a higher standing than MSU... That said, as I've said, it sounds like your speaking from a U-M point of view when you (and others) act as though U-M's some Ivy League school and MSU's just a run-of-the mill state school. Neither is true; the truth lies near the middle. It's delusional to believe that every good student who chooses MSU over UM does so for some niche program. There’s a lot more than just MSU’s campus. You could throw in such programs as physics/nuclear physics (among the nation’s best), education, music (UM’s rated higher, but MSU’s right there, including one of the top jazz studies programs, oldest music therapy program and track record, in the 20th century, for graduating elite musicians and teachers); botany/biology/natural science (the Dept of Energy, since 1964, operates a national plant laboratory at MSU); political science (beyond just James Madison), rated highly, and the international LeFrak Forum is based there; film studies, the East Lansing Film festival has, in less than 10 years blown past the Ann Arbor Film festival and MSU, at least, has a near equal (if not better) influence than U-M in Hollywood, … and I could go on but, suffice it to say, when U-M people/fans/alumni like to limit what MSU is supposedly sought after by great students, you’d best widen your perception of what MSU is all about academically. There’s a reason why the State of Michigan’s public education system is widely admired as among the top in the US, and it’s NOT because of U-M, alone… sorry to burst your bubble (and, along with this, most consider MSU’s campus to be much nicer than U-M’s; sorry, had to throw that in) </p>

<p>But before you react, tetrahedr0n, reread the 1st 3 sentences of the preceding paragraph before you knee-jerk react that I’m somehow “bitter” toward U-M (it’s sad that anyone with a point of view other than a “U-M is Harvard” point of view is labeled as bitter).</p>

<p>As to the OP, it's a matter of fact Michigan has long been attractive to many kids/families in the East... Michigan State does get a share, though not nearly as much as U-M, in the NY/NJ and DC (+Maryland/Virginia) -- which is why MSU has a paid University recruiter in NY/NJ and an office + staff on Capitol Hill... As for Chicago, Alexandre, I'd be willing to bet MSU is about as strong in that area as U-M; if it's not the difference can't be that much. There are other parts of the country MSU is popular among HSers too like much of California (which, I think, ranks 3rd behind Michigan and Illinois as home for Spartan alums), Florida and, for some reason, Buffalo, NY… And MSU’s popularity outside Michigan’s borders is growing, esp overseas…</p>

24

<p>A good number of kids go from my school as well, and an even bigger number who are accepted. About 10-15 going this year, including one with a full ride.</p>

25

<p>I think it's really counter-productive to point out the few things Michigan State is better at, when you consider that this really means that Michigan is pretty much better at everything else. MSU is better at stuff Michigan doesn't do (like journalism), most biology things (as it was originally Michigan Agricultural College), and a few niche programs (like nuclear physics). For most everything else, Michigan is considered to be better, in many cases by a very significant margin. Math, physics, econ, political science, sociology, psychology, business, etc. Just name a program, and odds are Michigan is considered better. And not just by alumni/students at Michigan, like you're trying to imply. By pretty much anybody.</p>

<p>Even if you just want to focus on the Big T(elev)en, Michigan is generally considered to be in the top two (with Northwestern), and Michigan State is generally considered to be in the bottom two (with Ohio State). So that puts at least 7 schools inbetween the two, just within the Midwest. If you want to branch out, you can also pretty safely put UC Boulder, U Washington, U Maryland, U Florida, UT Austin, UNC, UConn and 3-4 of the UC schools in the gap between Michigan and MSU. If you really want to open the floodgates, we can throw in the private schools/LACs. Not that MSU is a bad school and you can't get a good education there, but saying it's comparable to Michigan in terms of academics because MSU is a better option for a few kids is as stupid as saying Michigan is comparable to Harvard/MIT/whatever because a few people that go here turned them down. As far as the academic hierarchy is concerned, Michigan and Michigan State are worlds apart.</p>

<p>Like one of my professors said when I was asking about graduating early, "If your goal is just to go to grad school at some place like Michigan State, you can graduate whenever and you'll do just fine. But if you want to go to a good school where the professors are in the know, you should stay for your last year."</p>

26

<p>"What do you mean by gap, Alexandre? Purely statistical? Perception? USN&WR?... What do mean by same peer group? Grad school-wise?"</p>

<p>I do not really care much for the USNWR. I think we can both agree the USNWR is designed to hurt state universities. If it were properly gathering information, I am willing to bet that MSU would be ranked anywhere between 40 and 60 and Michigan anywhere between 8 and 16. </p>

<p>Like I said, I was refering primarily to statistical data. </p>

<p>Mean ACT Average:
Harvard: 32.5
Michigan: 29
MSU: 25
Harvard's mean ACT is 3.5 points greater than Michigan's and Michigan's mean ACT is 4 points greater than MSU. In the case of 5 of the 8 Ivies, average ACT scores are between 1 and 2 points higher than Michigan's.</p>

<p>SAT Average:
Harvard: 1490 (superscored)
Michigan: 1320
MSU: 1135
Harvard's mean SAT is 170 points greater than Michigan's and Michigan's mean SAT is 185 points greater than MSU. Keep in mind that superscoring makes a significant difference. In the case of 4 out of 8 of the Ivies, average SAT scores are between 70 and 110 points higher than Michigan's. Again, the Ivies superscore, and that makes a significant difference.</p>

<p>Endowment:
Harvard: $34.9 billion
Michigan: $7.1 billion
MSU: $1.6 billion
Harvard's endowment is 391% greater than Michigan's and Michigan's endowment is 343% greater than MSU's. 5 out of 8 Ivies have endowments equal to or smaller than Michigan's. </p>

<p>Peer Assessment Score:
Harvard: 4.9
Michigan: 4.5
MSU: 3.5
There really is no comparison here. As far as the academic world is concerned, Michigan and MSU aren't peers. Michigan peers are Cal, UCLA, UVa, the Ivies, Duke, Chicago, Northwestern, Johns Hopkins etc... In fact, 5 of the 8 Ivies have Peer Assessment scores raning between 4.3 and 4.6 and 2 of those have Peer Assessment scores slightly lower than Michigan's.</p>

<p>"That said, as I've said, it sounds like your speaking from a U-M point of view when you (and others) act as though U-M's some Ivy League school and MSU's just a run-of-the mill state school."</p>

<p>That's because as one of the nation's top 3 or 4 public universities, Michigan is comparable to several Ivies, particularly the larger ones. MSU is obviously not a "run of the mill" state school, but it is not usually considered one of the top 25 state universities either.</p>

27

<p>You just can't look at an endowment without looking at how many students it is split up among. So divide the endowment by the number of undergrads to get a more accurate representation.</p>

28

<p>afruff, there are three main problems with splitting endowments into the number of students:</p>

<p>1) It does not take into consideration economies of scale
2) Some schools have much large graduate programs relative to the whole university. For example, only 20%-30% of Columbia and Harvard students are undergrads, compared to 65%-75% at Michigan and MSU.
3) State universities benefit from state funding.</p>

<p>It is possible to compare Michigan and MSU's endowment per student, or even, loosely, those two to Cornell. But Harvard and most Ivies to Michigan or MSU would not be very telling.</p>

29

<p>That's why I said you'd get a more accurate representation. It's still more accurate than looking at endowment alone.</p>

30

<p>"MSU is obviously not a "run of the mill" state school, but it is not usually considered one of the top 25 state universities either." - Alexandre</p>

<p>As an undergrad school, it should be. </p>

<p>The ONLY reason it's not is b/c it shares the state with U-M which, obviously, suppresses student stats. Switch MSU with, say, Penn State and... and you want to convince me Penn State really is a TOP 25 state U for any other reason other than where it is located (bigger state with no other similar non-commuter/residential flagship State U)? And that's not simply to pick on PSU b/c there are several others... (ie Maryland, U.Florida, and a few others)... </p>

<p>Obviously this shows the prejudice against State schools where freshman admissions stats, primarily, along with grad school age/prominence so strongly tilts the rankings...</p>

31

<p>"As far as the academic hierarchy is concerned, Michigan and Michigan State are worlds apart." -- dilsky</p>

<p>1st dilksy, read my post immediately above. Then, too, consider on most WORLD lists MSU is considered in the top 100 universities (including one w/in the top 60)... You're U-M affiliation/bias is clearly showing.</p>

<p>"... but saying it's comparable to Michigan in terms of academics because MSU is a better option for a few kids is as stupid as saying Michigan is comparable to Harvard/MIT/whatever because a few people that go here turned them down." -- dilksy</p>

<p>dilksy, I again invite you to reread my post. Did I ever say MSU was exactly the same as U-M reputation-wise (the implication of "comparable"). I said U-M is better. But despite you're denial, you're comment that U-M and MSU are "worlds apart" evidences your clear bias and is not backed up by evidence... and certainly there are more than just a "few" great freshman who choose MSU over U-M, even from outside the State of Michigan. </p>

<p>It's interesting to contrast your statements, and Alexandre's, to those from posters with no U-M or MSU affiliations. They tend to be more in line with what I'm saying...</p>

32

<p>"As an undergrad school, it should be. "</p>

<p>That's just your biased opinion. You're just as bad as you're accusing the Michigan people of being. I listed a good amount of state universities that are generally considered to be between Michigan and MSU. If I bothered to look at non "University of State" schools like Miami (Ohio) and added the couple public universities that are at/above Michigan's level, it wouldn't be hard to come up with 25 ahead of MSU.</p>

<p>"and you want to convince me Penn State really is a TOP 25 state U for any other reason other than where it is located (bigger state with no other similar non-commuter/residential flagship State U)?"</p>

<p>Are you trying to make a point here? Who cares whether or not Penn State would be worse if it were in a smaller state, or had other large competing state universities? All that matters is that it does, and that's part of what makes it a better school than MSU.</p>

<p>"1st dilksy, read my post immediately above. Then, too, consider on most WORLD lists MSU is considered in the top 100 universities (including one w/in the top 60)... You're U-M affiliation/bias is clearly showing."</p>

<p>When did I say they didn't deserve to be in the top 100? The best you can say for MSU is top 100. The worst you can say for Michigan is top 25. That's a pretty big distinction.</p>

<p>"But despite you're denial, you're comment that U-M and MSU are "worlds apart" evidences your clear bias and is not backed up by evidence"</p>

<p>Incoming student statistics, undergraduate rankings, specific undergraduate program rankings, graduate program rankings, endowment, peer assessment score. Pick any metric you want. Alexandre already covered that. Pardon me for not repeating what was already said and pretty well known.</p>

<p>If you really want unbiased opinions, go ask people in one of the general forums what they think/know about MSU. I doubt you'll get much.</p>

33

<p>Really, there's no sense with trying to talk with Quincy4 about UM/MSU. You'll just get the "you have an agenda out to get MSU" argument from his side. It's so typical of the Spartys, who on a whole suffer from little man's syndrome. </p>

<p>I don't like UM, I don't want to do anything that helps UM, I hope the arrogant and condescending attitudes that the University exhibits continues to hurt them, but you are foolish if you don't recognize an obvious gap between the two schools in quality.</p>

34

<p>Aw cmon A2, we aren't that arrogant.</p>

35

<p>Quincy, I wish I knew the people you did. I certainly hear a lot of Ivy Leaguers and alums from other elite schools who do not hesitate to bring up the prestige of their degree.</p>

<p>Anyway, Michigan has an attitude of arrogance across the state. Some of it is deserved. Some of it is not. I have heard people couple the "arrogance" charge with other statements that reveal either their ignorance or misinformation about U-M. I am not sure where it all comes from.</p>

<p>MSU is a great school and to some extent it does suffer from U-M's presence, since it knocks MSU off the "Flagship" spot. People's opinions about MSU are probably sometimes just as misinformed as attitudes about U-M (in both directions). </p>

<p>I'm just thrilled (as a Michigan resident) that we have two such strong institutions here. What a great thing for the state to have.</p>

36

<p>The reason that Michigan is so popular in New York is because a lot of the East Coast Jewish students come to Michigan. And the Jewish community's presence in New York, especially New York City is very strong.</p>

37

<p>"Really, there's no sense with trying to talk with Quincy4 you have an agenda out to get MSU" argument from his side. It's so typical of the Spartys, who on a whole suffer from little man's syndrome."</p>

<p>Well, A2Wolves6, from one such as yourself who couldn't get into U-M, what is your issue? U-M envy? Fortunately for me, I was accepted at a real Ivy League school (Cornell) but, instead, chose to go to MSU... so I guess that makes me crazy.</p>

38

<p>By the way, dyed-in-the-wool Wolvie, Alexandre, once agreed with me that USN&WR's survey was unfair and MSU should rate in the top 50 nat'l universities... He may deny that, now, for fear many fragile-ego types (not all, of course) in the Blue Nation will throw him under the bus much as they did former U-M QB Jim Harbaugh, now HC at Stanford, when he had the audacity to call into question the academic standards of U-M athletics.</p>

39

<p>I don't feel like reading all of this. What I will say is that I went to the same high school as the OP. From my year ('07) 20 kids matriculated to UMich and this past year it's around 15. My school also sends a large number of kids to Penn State, Indiana, and Wisconsin. My school is very affluent and kids do not want to go to our local state school. The ones who are strong academically, but can't get into a top private college tend to look at Michigan and Wisconsin as good schools that aren't Maryland. Lets face it, College Park is **** compared to Ann Arbor or Madison as a college town. Also, Michigan and Wisconsin are a lot better regarded around the nation and internationally while offering better college experiences. Kids who are strong enough to go to Maryland but have the money to go elsewhere and want a funner or different college experience tend to go to PSU, Indiana, or other schools of the sort. Basically, my school is strong enough to have a large number of students accepted to Mich every year (like close to 30 a year when you consider those who go to top private colleges instead), and the sole fact that so many kids can afford to go out of state is why they go to Michigan instead of paying half or less by going to Maryland.</p>

40

<p>"Are you trying to make a point here? Who cares whether or not Penn State would be worse if it were in a smaller state, or had other large competing state universities? All that matters is that it does, and that's part of what makes it a better school than MSU." -- dilksy</p>

<p>Ridiculous comment. Make the case that Penn State, U. Maryland and U.Florida have clearly greater resources than MSU --in endowment, library, greater across-the-board academics, greater tradition (greater alumni achievement measured by such things as "Who's Who" tradition (pioneering academics/historically famous alumni, etc); US Govt funded labs, etc... If you can't -- which I know you can't -- then you're putting a lie to the very same rating system that has U-M being in the Top 25 (which technically, it's not, even in US News, your Bible, U-M was tied with UCLA and another school for the 25th spot, if I recall -- you'd at best have to say U-M's top 26, 27 or 28). In at least one of the world surveys, Wisconsin and UCLA are clearly rated ahead of U-M… funny, you guys don’t talk much about them as your perception of U-M being Ivy League (or Ivy Like) with the “lowest” you’ll go, State U-wise, is Berkeley or UVA…</p>

<p>Btw, Miami U. is a darned good school; tough academics; long liberal arts tradition, small size, clear undergrad orientation and tradition… and yet US News ranks Miami well outside the Top 25 state schools (a mere 38th acc’ing to Kiplinger) as well, “down” near MSU… Why? Sorry, no big grad/professional schools like Michigan and Berkeley… What a shame.</p>