UMich accepts a lot of people from my school

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Michigan
41

<p>"Quincy, I wish I knew the people you did. I certainly hear a lot of Ivy Leaguers and alums from other elite schools who do not hesitate to bring up the prestige of their degree." - hoedown</p>

<p>Hoedown, maybe I wasn't clear. If not, my apologies... What I meant that SOME U-M alums are constantly comparing their school to other top schools (and I've never wavered in my belief U-M is a top school) as a way to justify itself when others, like the Ivy League, don't -- and why should they have to. And this includes other top non Ivies too, like Duke or Stanford or even Northwestern --- at least, I don't see and certainly not to the extent I see it from U-M, that's all. I also rarely see a school go out of its way to trash it’s neighbor, MSU a great school in its own right, with the relish of some Wolvies in an effort to justify their school. Oftentimes it goes beyond just a friendly rivalry.</p>

42

<p>"Alexandre, once agreed with me that USN&WR's survey was unfair and MSU should rate in the top 50 nat'l universities... He may deny that, now, for fear many fragile-ego types (not all, of course) in the Blue Nation will throw him under"</p>

<p>I still agree that MSU would be ranked in or around the top 50 in a fair ranking. I said so above. But by that reckoning, if the USNWR were to somehow adjust its forumla to be fair toward state universities, Michigan would leap at least 10 spots in the rankings, placing it somwhere between #8 and #16. </p>

<p>As for rankings, both USNWR and international publications, Michigan is always ranked among the top 25 in the US. Whether it is occasional tied with another school at #25 isn't of consequance. The point is, Michigan, at the very worst, is ranked #25 in the US. I have yet to see a respected ranking that ranks Michigan out of the top 25.</p>

43

<p>"The reason that Michigan is so popular in New York is because a lot of the East Coast Jewish students come to Michigan. And the Jewish community's presence in New York, especially New York City is very strong."</p>

<p>Much of this is because of a strong, sad anti-Semitic tradition of the top Ivies, Potted-Ivies and Seven Sisters where Jews were oft limited by strict quotas or kept out altogether... U-M and other major Midwestern schools were welcoming; esp in their professional schools (esp law and medicine) and a New York Jewish migration to U-M and the others was established... New York wasn't the only city, but the one, obviously, with the largest and most visible Jewish population.</p>

44

<p>And Quincy, it is human nature or compare one thing to another. Do you think Michigan is the only university that compares itself to the best? Don't you think Chicago, Duke, Johns Hopkins and Northwestern do too? All of those universities are constantly comparing themselves to the "Ivies". I put the word in quotes because Ivies does not mean the 8 universities that make up the Athletic league but rather, a term that is associated with academic excellence. The only school that probably does not compare itself to any other school is Harvard. It is THE standard. Michigan is fortunate that among public universities, along with Cal and maybe UVa), it too is THE standard. But state universities have to contend with all universities, private and public, and as such, still compare themselves to other elites. To suggest that Michigan is unique in this regard shows a lack of insight on your part.</p>

45

<p>"and yet US News ranks Miami well outside the Top 25 state schools"</p>

<p>27th is well outside of the top 25?</p>

46

<p>
[quote]
What I meant that SOME U-M alums are constantly comparing their school to other top schools

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So, just out of curiosity, how many UM alums can you possibly know well enough to say that they "constantly" do these comparison? 10? 15? Let's just grossly exaggerate and say 500. Congrats. You don't even know a 10th of a single graduating class of UM undergraduates. What makes you think you're the authority on what UM alums do or don't do?</p>

<p>
[quote]
I also rarely see a school go out of its way to trash it’s neighbor,

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Wrong. We don't feel a need to trash anyone in particular. The majority of us at UM have many good friends attending MSU, friends that we respect deeply. We see what you're trying to do here - baiting. I'm not going to call MSU a bad school, academically or otherwise, nor am I interested in any sort of rankings. </p>

<p>None of us particularly care about MSU academics. If we're going to find someone to pick an argument with, it's certainly not going to be MSU. The problem lies in your inferiority complex. We get it - you need to invent some imaginary douchebags who are trashing your institution so you can feel better about yourself for attending the place, where, if not the academics are better, the students are "friendlier."</p>

<p>
[quote]

Well, A2Wolves6, from one such as yourself who couldn't get into U-M, what is your issue? U-M envy? Fortunately for me, I was accepted at a real Ivy League school (Cornell) but, instead, chose to go to MSU... so I guess that makes me crazy.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Maybe you should stay away from insulting forum members who have been around a hell of a lot longer than you have. Especially if you're going to accuse them of jealousy. All of your posts on this thread smack of intense jealousy. And if you particularly feel like flexing your electronic ***** here, keep in mind that there are people on this thread that have been accepted to schools that could wipe the floor with Cornell academically.</p>

<p>edit - I'm loving the irony of calling rankings our "bible" while you scour among the most obscure college rankings I've ever heard of to find the most appropriate number to prove your "point."</p>

47

<p>
[quote]
Well, A2Wolves6, from one such as yourself who couldn't get into U-M, what is your issue? U-M envy?

[/quote]

LOL, you've got your facts wrong. I was accepted to Michigan and decided not to go there. In fact, I am currently enrolled at Michigan. You can find me in the directory if you had my name :D</p>

48

<p>So A2Wolves, are you at Michigan or are you still at Indiana?</p>

49

<p>I'll be graduating from Indiana in December.</p>

50

<p>The gap between MSU and Michigan is approximately comparable to the gap between Michigan and the top, non-HYP private schools. The actual size of the gap depends on your value judgment of the differences between the top schools.</p>

51

<p>Not really EAD. The gap between MSU and Michigan is equal to the gap between Michigan and Harvard. Only Harvard. Not even YPrinceton, Stanford or Yale. The gap between Michigan and non-HYP private schools in only in your mind. Just ask the academic world. According to them:</p>

<p>Slightly stronger than Michigan:
Columbia University
Cornell University
Johns Hopkins University
University of Chicago</p>

<p>Equal to Michigan:
University of Pennsylvania</p>

<p>Slightly weaker than Michigan:
Brown University
Dartmouth College
Duke University
Northwestern University
University of California-Los Angeles
University of Virginia</p>

<p>According to the experts, all of those schools above are peers.</p>

52

<p>Alexandre, I generally respect your opinion as one of the more balanced Wolverines, which is probably why you're a moderator... Just curious on that last one: what is your source?</p>

53

<p>He's using the faulty Peer Assessment ratings as his basis for comparison, even though it has little to no relevance at the undergraduate level. The strength of the student bodies at some of the schools that are apparently "slightly weaker" than Michigan is far greater than Michigan's student body, especially Duke and Dartmouth.</p>

54

<p>EAD, you and I are flawed, not the PA. You are a 19 year old with relatively little knowledge or experience. You are obviously intelligent, but there is no substitute for time and experience. I consider even myself to be a novice when it comes to rating universities, and I have been studying the matter for 15 years. There was a time when I actually thought as you do. I honestly believed Michigan was better than Duke, Dartmouth and Brown because it has a stronger faculty, broader breadth of academic offerings etc... Of course, over time, I realized I was wrong. I understood that just as Michigan is slightly superior to those universities in some ways, it is slightly inferior to them in other, equally as important ways. On the other hand, the PA is relatively, although not 100%, accurate and measures undergraduate education. I will always respect the collective opinion of academe far more than our own, admitedly biased, opinions. They know far, far, far more than we could ever possibly know about university education.</p>

<p>As for Dartmouth and Duke having "far greater" student bodies, you are blowing the gap out of proportion. A mean ACT score of 31 is not "far greater" than a mean ACT score of 29. It is, and I admit it fully, noteworthy, but let us not overly state the matter. SAT averages are much harder to gauge because Dartmouth and Duke superscore, Michigan does not. </p>

<p>But there is a lot more that just statistics to consider. You must take the makeup of the university into consideration. Michigan's mean ACT scores for Business, Engineering and LSA students is 30. Since Dartmouth and Duke only have colleges of Arts and Sciences and Engineering, it is only fair to compare apples to apples. Last time I checked, Dartmouth and Duke didn't have undergraduate Education, Nursing and Kinesiology programs. A mean ACT score of 30 is not that much greater than a mean ACT score of 31. </p>

<p>And that's comparing Michigan to Dartmouth and Duke, arguably the two most selective non-HYPS universities. The mean ACT at Brown, Chicago, Cornell, Johns Hopkins and Northwestern hover between 30 and 30.5. Of course, like Michigan, Cornell and Northwestern have many non-Arts and Science or Engineering majors. They have colleges of Agriculture, Education, Hotel Management, Human Ecology etc... </p>

<p>I definitely agree that student quality matters. but one must take many factors into account. It is not as simple as looking at overall mean ACT or SAt scores. One must see how the university weighs and reports those scores. Does it superscore or doesn't it? Does it give those tests as much weight as other major factors (as do most private universities) or does it deemphasize standardized tests (as do many of the publics, Michigan included). Do schools have multiple colleges within their walls (like Cornell, Michigan and Northwestern) or do they only have colleges of Arts and Sciences and engineering (like most smaller private universities)? </p>

<p>And even when considering student strength, one must remember that regardless of overall student quality, at any university, most students of equal calibre will move in similar circles. The brightest and most industrious/ambitious students will take the toughest courses and major in the toughest disciplines. As such, they will tend to befriend students of equal calibre.</p>

<p>In short, Michigan's student body is as gifted as required for top level academics. </p>

<p>But none of the above addresses the main issue at hand; which is the overall quality of an academic institution. That issue is far more complex than merely evaluating the quality of a student body. And as the above clearly proves, it is almost impossible to gauge the quality of a student body. Evaluating the strength of 5 or 10 people is a huge challenge. Evaluating the strength of 5,000+ is impossible.</p>

55

<p>While I without a doubt agree that UofM is widely considered the better school in a large majority of departments, I don't see how people can say that you can definitely get a significantly "better education" at UofM than at MSU without actually attending there in the first place. </p>

<p>"None of us particularly care about MSU academics. If we're going to find someone to pick an argument with, it's certainly not going to be MSU."</p>

<p>Yes, there are presumably more party/uber-social/non-studying types at MSU. But take a look at this; the average GPA for enrolled freshmen MSU students is 3.6. Is that really so bad? Does this mean that most all the students that go to MSU don't care about academics, and that we can't hold a good academic debate/conversation?</p>

<p>I highly beg to differ. I'm not just saying this because I'm gladly going to MSU this fall. We do have a large honors college (with ~2600 students with requirements that they are in the top 5% of their high school class and have a 30+ACT/1360 M/V SAT). There are the residential colleges (james madison, lyman briggs, residential college of arts/humanities) that aren't offered at Michigan. There are the professorial assistantships where students work with professors in paid research projects (offered to students with 33+ACTs/1500 M/V SATs and admission to honors college). The fact is, there are plenty of academic opportunities at MSU for those who are inclined to do so. </p>

<p>Once again, I'm not de-valuing the greatness of UofM whatsoever. I'm just saying many, if not most of the students at MSU have excellent academic capabilities as well. It's not really fair to say that we're generally partiers with few academic aspirations (unless you've actually gone to school there).</p>

56

<p>I went to both MSU and Michigan for undergrad and there really is no comparison. Half the class at MSU are disinterested preppy party-goers, absolutely no interest in academics. They don't pay attention in class, they don't do the readings. The exams are suitably easier. At Michigan students by-and-large care about the material they are learning and make a suitable effort. Professors return the enthusiasm; there is a difference not only in talent but interest in both faculty and the student body between the two schools.</p>

<p>I was in the Honors College and James Madison colleges at MSU, took a mix of JMC, polsci, philosophy, and econ courses at MSU. Same sorts of classes at UM.</p>