<p>i was able to find the SAT ranges of Cornell’s A&S and Engineering, thanks to collegehelp’s posts:</p>
<p>Cornell 1300-1480
Cornell A&S 1320 - 1510
Cornell Engineering 1360-1520
Northwestern (whole school): 1360-1530</p>
<p>Don’t see how NU is “much easier” to get into, even after excluding Cornell’s state programs. Now I really wonder what the names of the 3 schools are.</p>
<p>I’m still stuck on the word integrity. I’ve been taking to task by kids proud of their schools, but integrity?</p>
<p>NU bends a lot more for athletes and has more of them than Cornell A & S. That is not reflected in the numbers above which already show NU is an easier admit.</p>
<p>My children attended 3 NYC prep schools, each of which sends 25% plus to ‘plus’ and many to NU.</p>
<p>^So higher score range means easier admit. Now I have nothing more to say. Goodnight.</p>
<p>There are tons of ross alumni in chicago at the BBs. I had the feeling even more than NU alumni. In regards to ivies, pretty sure Ross does better than Brown but probably worse than all the other ivies. I would definitely disagree about Cornell having a smarter student body than Ross or NU, but banks generally recruit more from Cornell. Dartmouth and Duke are about the same in terms of recruiting as Cornell. HYPWC are amazing for banking and substantially stronger in terms of recruiting than the other schools I mentioned. Stanford, UCB, and MIT are great but not really target schools for NYC banking.</p>
<p>I have no hard proof for all this, but I have networked quite a bit with bankers, interned at a BB, and have friends who work in the industry. Still this is just an opinion.</p>
<p>RE #12, it’s not an excuse it’s a fact. You should do likewise. When someone is applying to NU communications, they should be made aware of the fact that the admissions profile of the applicants to their particular college is not identical to the posted aggregates for the university, otherwise they will be misled as to their actual admissions chances. And same for the other colleges there too, to the extent that these deviate from published aggregates in a material way. Lest applicants be misled. I think you’ve posted that data before, for Northwestern, applicants should be made more aware of it.</p>
<p>To the matter at hand, there are a number of colleges with very high average class SAT scores that, nevertheless, were not highly represented at my Wall Street firm when I was there. I don’t think it had much to do with the capabilities of the students there, more the firm’s customary hiring practices, and maybe geography. Northwestern was certainly recruited, and represented, in MBA hiring, but I can’t think of a single Northwestern undergrad we hired into the analyst program. There may have been some in the Chicago office that I didn’t know about, but this was frankly not where the main action took place at that firm. But in no way did that mean Northwestern was “worse”, or less selective.</p>
<p>That was a long time ago though, and just one department at one firm.</p>
<p>FWIW, Cornell has an undergrad business program, located in the Ag school, that was frankly a backwater when I attended but now allegedly it is harder to get into than CAS: lower admit %, higher stats . But I’ve never seen its stats broken out anyplace. But I understand kids from that program get recruited pretty well now, moreso than before I think. Though various of the other colleges there also show up.</p>
<p>I agree with everything you said, monydad. </p>
<p>Regarding the “excuse”, what I meant was those posters practice “selective ignorance”, pointing out Cornell’s specialty schools while at the same time ignoring the fact that NU has specialty schools also. I don’t have a habit of making a big deal out of it because the difference is just 20 points for NU. In Cornell’s case, the difference between A&S and the aggregates is only 25 points (people need to realize A&S is the largest school and its weight helps minimize the difference). The irony is the people that make a big deal about it never really specify the difference. Maybe they actually don’t really know and leave things in the imaginary. That’s probably why they would say things like “A&S average would be higher than NU” or “NU is harder to get in than the Cornell’s state program but ‘a lot easier’ than its endowed programs”. People make it sound like the endowed schools are at a much higher level than the aggregates suggest, failing to realize the endowed schools’ stats already contribute most of the aggregates! It’s a twisted way of thinking, IMO. </p>
<p>
Thanks. I’d never seen hmom5 qualified the timing (even though she’s no longer working in WS) and the scope (one department in one firm) like you did. It’s refreshing to see and that’s what make your comments look more fair and convincing. That said, if NU wasn’t a target with the NYC firms back in your days, then the followings suggest NU has made some grounds with the NYC firms in recent years:
<a href=“http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/students/Internship_Directory.pdf[/url]”>http://www.mmss.northwestern.edu/students/Internship_Directory.pdf</a> MMSS stands for Mathematical Methods for Social Sciences adjunct major; about 20-30 students enroll each year.<br>
[Northwestern</a> Wins Regional ‘Fed Challenge’ : Northwestern University Newscenter](<a href=“http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2009/11/fed.html]Northwestern”>http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2009/11/fed.html)
<a href=“http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2006/11/challenge.html[/url]”>http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2006/11/challenge.html</a>
[Kellogg</a> School of Management Undergraduate Certificate Programs - Kellogg School of Management - Northwestern University](<a href=“http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/certificate/students/jobs.htm]Kellogg”>http://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/certificate/students/jobs.htm)
</p>
<p>Actually, Arts & sciences students are only 1/3 of the total at Cornell, that might be one of the differences vs. some of the other multi-college universities. I point it out a lot because people are always comparing admissions to its liberal arts college (CAS) vs. admissions to institutions that are predominately liberal arts colleges, but using stats for the aggregated university instead of stats for CAS, which is the college that is actually on point in those discussions. And in those discussions that level of difference is very germane. It works both ways, if you are applying to one of its colleges that has easier admissions than the aggregate you should know that too. </p>
<p>If people do this selectively, for Cornell but not Northwestern, possibly it’s because they are mostly from the Northeast and are not so familiar with the situation at Nortwestern. And nobody has told them, or presented the actual data. There is certainly no justification for it. Unless it was the case that Northwestern’s Arts & sciences represented a highly predominant proportion of the student body, or happened to have the same admissions profile as the aggregate. Which is not the case at Cornell. Otherwise, they should also be broken out there too where relevant, clearly.</p>
<p>Hmom’s experience is quite recent, and she had worked for a long time in a highly prestigious front office area. I have no reason to doubt her comments as they apply to the situations she’s observed. You must recognize that all I bank jobs are not the same. The standards for back office, credit, stock broker assistant, janitor, Personnel department, trading floor, regional branch,etc, are not identically the same as for positions in Hmom’s group. Yet they are all jobs at an I bank. She has also said, previously, that Cornell is not at the top rung so far as placement goes. Everything she has posted rings true vs. my own experiences. But I certainly don’t know everything.
She has also posted some things which were not the same in my shop (eg Brown had good representation in my department). Yet I’ve no doubt that it was true at hers. YMMV.</p>
<p>BTW i just looked through that summer intern directory, very few of those positions would be considered equal in prestige, internally, to a slot in Hmom’s group. Of course getting a job of any kind is good, and these are more techie kind of guys I presume. But I’m not seeing any “analyst, Mergers & acquisitions, NY office”.</p>
<p>I hate to reply because of Sam’s overall lack of knowledge and clear thinking…(yes, lower scores mean it’s an easier admit Sam), but I worked on WS through August of this year. While I was at one BB firm for those decades, I was very involved with analyst hiring and regularly canvassed my peers at other firms to see who they were hiring and assess hiring trends.</p>
<p>What monydad saw is exactly what I did. NU undergrads are not targets for any major firm on the level of any ivy.</p>
<p>I disagree with what drizzl said. Dartmouth and Duke definitely do as well as if not better than Columbia in terms of getting grads on to Wall Street taking their sizes into consideration (especially Dartmouth).</p>
<p>HYPW are definitely at a notch above these three schools, which in turn are at a notch above Cornell, Brown, and Stern.</p>
<p>
hmom5, you are unbelievable. You literally try to make your mistake into mine. Please look at the numbers again. NU has higher SAT range than not only Cornell’s aggregate but also its engineering school’s SAT! Please read the numbers one more time! Also please read post #23 again; I was being sarcastic and it looks like you completely missed it. You were the one that said NU was “much easier” or that NU had “easier admit”, despite its higher SAT. So <em>you</em> are literally saying “higher scores mean easier admit”; that’s from you not me; that’s your mistake, not mine; that’s where you seem to lack clear thinking, not I. Furthermore, did I disagree that NU may have weaker IB network than Ivies? I was talking about the caliber of students. Monydad agreed with me that the weaker network “in no way did that mean Northwestern was ‘worse’, or less selective”. I don’t have IB experience and that’s why I rely on sources/lists/stats. But as far as clear thinking goes, I think I’ve been doing a better job than you.</p>
<p>monydad,</p>
<p>I am copying and pasting some of the IB internships from the MMSS directory. This may sound like a stupid question but I don’t want to make any assumption. Do the followings resemble more the front office or back office tasks?</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>You’ve already made so many, why stop now? There has only been only other kid who’s totally ignorant posts reduced me to ragging on him (what ever happened to our favorite pharmacist?), but you want to write about authority on banking and don’t know the difference between front and back office jobs?</p>
<p>Unbelievable is exactly right.</p>
<p>hmom5,</p>
<p>Wow, way to divert attention and attack me. </p>
<p>Since when have I started to “write about authority on banking”? Please provide any evidence before bashing me. You dislike me because I, as someone not working in the field, don’t believe in everything you said. Why should I? After all, these were what you wrote:
This contradicts what monydad and many others have said. Cornell’s AG school is recruited. So if you are wrong about this, why should we believe in other assertions you made?
How big are these 3 prep schools? Let me see, NU has 400 students from all mid-atlantic states which include NJ, NY, DC, PA, VA, WV, DE, MD. That averages no more than 1 student per school. Yet, all of those 3 NYC prep schools each send 25% of their students? Wow…Do you have any idea what kind of numbers you are talking about, Mrs all knowing?</p>
<p>Of course, you were bashing me just to divert attention. You made a stupid mistake - “higher score = easier admit”. You were wrong in saying NU is “much easier”. Of course, since you are mrs. all knowing, it’s tough to admit any wrong; instead, you chose to attack me on something that I never did (writing about authority on ibanking).</p>
<p>I actually have done the research and those to me are front office jobs. But I wanted monydad to confirm. At least I am not afraid to let people know I don’t have experience working in the field; little did I know you would be so low to seize on that and attack me. Anyway, if I was right, your claim that NU wasn’t recruited by any major firm whatsoever in other threads would become questionable. But then on this thread, you wrote:
Did I detect a shift in position here? Before you were telling others NU undergrads weren’t recruited whatsoever; now you say they are “not targets …on the level of any ivy”. I challenged the former but I have no problem with the latter. So why the shift? Did I show something that contradicts your earlier assertions?</p>
<p>Sam: I would be thrilled if one of my kids got any of those internship positions. Some moreso than others, but still, it is very hard to get any of these positions.</p>
<p>For the summer it doesn’t matter so much, but internally there are various loose pecking orders of selectivity. I would rather not be publicly denigrating or pumping any particular area or job function. But if any of them had worked in Hmom’s group they would have certainly specifically said so. I imagine the M&A group has analysts too, and I further imagine virtually all of them come from a very small group of colleges. IIRC my intent when I brought that up was as possible explanation for why Hmom might not have seen as many analysts from a broader group of colleges, since she was in an elite department within the firm. </p>
<p>However, she posted to the effect that the actual scope of her purview regarding analyst hiring was wider than what I conjectured, hence her comments were applicable not just to her group but more globally. I defer to her on this. I interviewed people who came for 2nd level interviews in my department, and I worked with the hires in my department and others. but I was never involved in initial recruiting there, or more broad scope beyond my department. Still I saw nothing while I was there that would contradict her comments. It has always been possible to be hired from non-target schools, it’s a lot harder though.</p>
<p>She could possibly be less familiar with the intracies of the firm’s specific recruiting practices at Cornell because she was personally not directly involved there, and maybe few (or no) individuals from there managed to land a spot in her group. Someone involved with the recruiting efforts would certainly know which were the target schools for the firm generally, though- I even saw those lists myself- yet might not be personally involved at each of them.
So certain details may have escaped notice. Alternatively, maybe her firm restricted interviews to CAS, or only CAS candidates made it through, I’ve no idea.</p>
<p>I should also add that I have no first-hand knowledge of firms’ recruiting practices at Cornell myself, for all I know she could be literally correct. We did have an analyst in my department from that AEM program, but he might have been “wired” (eg had connections), hence did not come from the normal recruitment process. I don’t recall, or I might have never known. The rest is just what I’ve read, it could be wrong for all I know. Certainly I’'ve read claims by some other schools of their Wall Street recruiting that did not match what I saw.</p>
<p>Hey guys I actually go to Cornell, yeah I know its a foreign concept, someone who goes to the school actually posting on this forum. Since when are all of you experts on Cornell recruiting? I haven’t seen you guys around campus. Do you people mind if I post the multiple emails I get every week about Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan, IBM, Citibank, and Lazard recruiting events? And once again, what is the ragging on the contract colleges like ILR and CALS (where the Top 10 business program AEM is housed). This is where most of the recruiters go (along with the Hotel school) to find talent. AEM and ILR have, respectively, acceptance rates that hover around 10% for AEM and 20% for ILR and the stats that accompany such acceptance rates. Shall I mention that the head of JP Morgan’s Banking Division is <em>gasp</em> an ILR alum.</p>
<p>Dartmouth dominates wall street. According to my brother (who worked at Goldman) and is now at HBS, Dartmouth is up there with Yale if not better. Brown/ Cornell don’t do as well (I am actually a Brown student but I am not into IB). Brown does really well at grad school placement which is what I care about.</p>
<p>Agree that Dartmouth has an unbelievable network on The Street. Stronger than Yale’s by far IMO. It’s not about ranking, it’s about network. DS, who hopes for WS, chose Dartmouth because of it.</p>
<p>FYI, for several of the years I worked part-time when my children were younger, I had major recruiting responsibility. I’ve been more involved with recruiting over the years than 99% of bankers.</p>
<p>Dartmouth’s strength on Wall Street is even more incredible considering how few undergrads it has (4100) compared to other top schools such as Columbia (7000), Duke (6300), Harvard (6700), Stanford (6800), Brown (5800).
However, at these top schools, a student’s performance within each one is a lot more important than which school he/she attends. Goldman may well make an offer to an English major at Brown with GPA 3.9 over an Econ major at Columbia with GPA 3.7 or vice versa.</p>
<p>Prospective investment bankers should put the effort they use arguing which colleges are best for investment banking into trying to do well in college. If you have a 3.8, then chances are you will get hired by an investment banks on Wall Street no matter which of the top colleges you attend. If you have a 3.4, the chances are you will not get hired no matter whether you go to Harvard, to Dartmouth, to Columbia, to Stern, to Northwestern, to Brown, etc.</p>