UMich Ross vs. Ivies

<p>While GPA is important, there are dozens of 3.8’s from top schools for every job. Much comes down to personal qualities. There is a WS type. This is what a lot of kids don’t understand–you can be val at Harvard but without the personality the firms are looking for, you’ll get no offers.</p>

<p>“I haven’t seen you guys around campus.”</p>

<p>How do you know, I’ve been up there three times this year already!!</p>

<p>Anyway I made it quite clear that I did not fancy myself an expert on Cornell recruiting. So thanks for stopping by to clear things up.</p>

<p>To that end: Are they taking ILR people for something besides HR positions? What proportion? Just wondering. Because I know of an ILR grad who has on occasion referenced his experience as “investment banker” when it turned out actually he had worked in HR at a couple banks. Which makes sense, of course. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.</p>

<p>Did the head of JP Morgan’s banking division get an analyst position there right out of ILR undergrad? 'Cause that’s what’s at issue here. His law degree from Harvard didn’t have anything to do with it, did it??</p>

<p>How do they do the interviews, do they have GPA cutoffs to sign up? Are they done by college, or can anyone sign up?
what about engineers: through the engineering career center? Or other.</p>

<p>Re:#41: very true. And the look, as well.
I remember a great associate got one of his school colleagues in for interviews, I took one look at the guy and knew he was going nowhere there. Sad, but true. But it’s certainly not all grades, nephew is there now, with GPA below the levels cited above, but with the right fit in other respects.</p>

<p>The look–so true. I also have a height theory.</p>

<p>hmom5, please explain what do you mean by target school and how the ivies, save for Cornell, are target schools and the rest are not. Thanks.</p>

<p>D was told as a summer intern “all interns have the grades, school , smarts, only a few have the personality to fit”.</p>

<p>It definitely seemed her time spent in and out of work time was being equally judged. How she interacted and socialized w/ the desk was very important. They knew, because she got the internship, that she was smart. But could she fit in? </p>

<p>She got an offer, so she did. </p>

<p>This is just the first step …</p>

<p>so, what is this “personality to fit”??? can anyone explain a bit?</p>

<p>Aggressive go getter type - this is overused description, a cliche, but still, is this what we are talking about? or something else?</p>

<p>A few things I’ll throw out–this is for corp fin/M & A types: overall sophistication (well traveled, can identify a fish knife), clear leadership, team players–lots and lots of college athletes–extremely articulate, personable/outgoing, networkers, high energy, engaging, popular.</p>

<p>Then there is the look: attractive, lots of very tall men, people who look distinguished as they grow old.</p>

<p>All anecdotal–just one person’s observations.</p>

<p>“,the ivies, save for Cornell,…”</p>

<p>She didn’t say that last part.</p>

<p>I don’t post on these forums much these days but permit me to put in my few cents. To Sam Lee: it is not all about SAT scores, the Ivies and the top tech schools (MIT, Caltech, Stanford) are incredibly difficult to get into compared to NU, Michigan Ross ,etc. They truly practise holistic admissions and Brown especially is perhaps the most difficult Ivy to get into simply because their admissions is so unpredictable. </p>

<p>Wall Street recruiters are attracted to these schools for the overall caliber of students. Much of college learning happens in the dorms, in the cafeteria, in discussions between students. The cross fertilization is incredible, the kid who had a summer with google talking about it with the one who went on a dig in Turkey. You wont get this at Michigan or NU. Or NYU. Even if a particular college at any of these schools is highly selective it is about the overall campus experience and overall strength of the school.</p>

<p>The student at NYU STern who changes his mind and opts for an art history or French major, or the student at Ross who does the same will be attending a mediocre school.</p>

<p>Many of us, incl me, do not like US News ranking methodology especially the peer scores but I have a surprise for you Sam Lee: it has signaling effects and becomes a shorthand for recruiting, the Ivies have a brand that NU and Ross dont have. </p>

<p>It is not about Gates medals or Fulbrights. it is also about the no of faculty on National Academies, no of peer reviewed publications etc. The academic strength of these schools is well captured by the Shanghai rankings of the Florida Center for Academic Performance and in these NU and Michigan do not figure.</p>

<p>There was time when networks mattered on Wall Street, but now it matters less and less (still matters) as the rankings have bestowed their Good Housekeeping Seal of Smarts. </p>

<p>Wall Street will take a Harvard Art History major quicker than a Ross or NYU business major. The fact you are on an Ivy campus means you have had an incredible preparation thru age 18.</p>

<p>I dont know hmom but NY prep schools offer an education unparalleled in the world and this is reflected in their college acceptances.</p>

<p>At the recruiting stage Wall Street is a meritocracy, later a plutocracy of the meritocrats.</p>

<p>It’d have been nice if you didn’t post because you did nothing other than putting misinformation and stirring things up again. </p>

<p>

This past academic cycle, NU students won 2 Rhodes, 4 Gates Cambridge (first in nation), 2 Churchill (first), 1 Mitchell (only 12 awared in the nation), 1 Marshall, 32 Fulbright (most in the nation), 3 Goldwater scholars, and 1 USA Today First Academic Team. I’d think these are far more impressive than “going on a dig in Turkey”.

I don’t know which foreign copy you are looking at. The one in the US has been giving high PA scores to NU/Michigan. NU has always got the same scores as Brown/Dartmouth…and Michigan got even slightly higher score. NU has been ranked consistently between 10th and 13th, ahead of Brown and similar to Cornell. Not that I think Brown is a worse school and many believe it’s underrated by USN. But it’d have been nice if you didn’t misrepresent; not everyone reading this forum has seen the ranking.

NU/Michigan have far more faculty on National Academies than Dartmouth/Brown and much better graduate rankings. Both are ranked much higher than some of the Ivies in world university rankings, including the one from Shanghai Jiao Tong U. Your claims completely contradict to the very published rankings you actually referred to. Don’t you think what you were doing here is ridiculous? Dartmouth is supposed to have the best WS recruiting after Wharton, despite its lack of faculty on National Academies. In other words, those are two separate things!</p>

<p>The amount of false information in your post is simply stunning.</p>

<p>“The student at NYU STern who changes his mind and opts for an art history or French major, or the student at Ross who does the same will be attending a mediocre school.”</p>

<p>Maybe something’s changed, but NYU used to have one of the best Art History departments in the country. FWIW.</p>

<p>Mr. Lee, we can debate without personal attacks, can’t we? The students at the Ivies and the techs are, on the whole, smarter than the ones at Michigan and most likely NU, hence the shadow curriculum of discussions among students will be of a higher caliber. To refute this argument you need to prove that the students at Michigan and NU are smarter. Let us use one metric, SAT and I win this argument.</p>

<p>You bring in medals to prove what? The Rhodes, for example, emphasizes athletic prowess and giving, as in public service. Some of these are deliberately given to schools that have not won in the past. In fact, at least one Rhodes is reserved each year for a school that has not won in the past. A better measure of the ability of the student body is their GRE scores, or acceptance into the top law and medical schools and consultancies and investment banks. I bet my house that the Ivies will beat both Michigan and NU any day and twice on Saturday.</p>

<p>I did not make an argument about peer scores. In fact, I said that was a questionable metric, and it was a passing comment which had no relevance to my main argument which was about signaling effects and brand name. You missed my point, which seems to suggest you lack reading comprehension as much as you lack manners. At the end of the day, the Ivy League is the Ivy League and Michigan and NU are not in the league.</p>

<p>I partially erred in the reference to the Shanghai rankings. The majority of the Ivies and the tech institutes, and Stanford are way above Michigan but not perhaps Dartmouth or Brown. I will concede that I was wrong but I think you need to be less aggressive.</p>

<p>You may get into Goldman Sachs, unlikely, but if you do, you won’t go far because you need polish and you didn’t get it at home or at a good prep school.</p>

<p>The thread is about Ross business school which is one of the premier departments at University of Michigan. The undergrad (BBA) program has always been ranked in the top 5 (Usually #3). The program takes the cream of the crop at Michigan, so the student body is comparable to the Ivy’s, which have their own share of ‘people who shouldn’t belong’.</p>

<p>Top students in Michigan from Middle class families will generally choose Ross over most IVY’s based upon financial consideration alone. </p>

<p>Top 30% of the student Body at Michigan is comparable with any elite university. As far as learning based upon interaction with other ‘smart’ students, there are ‘honors’ dorm where smart students can interact with their intellectual peers if they so desire. </p>

<p>Succesful people have to learn to interact with all types of personality and intellectual capabilities, so I believe that value of so called ‘Ivy League’ surroundings is overhyped. In any case, smart students generally choose other smart student to ‘hang out’ with. In addition, at Michiganyou get an opportunity to ‘hang’ around with ‘NFL Linebacker’ types who could run through a brick wall.</p>

<p>As far as placement in top Investment banks etc, Ross school of Business can compete with most Ivies</p>

<p>ramaswami,</p>

<p>I didn’t engage in any personal attack while addressing your post. You, on the other hand, have done exactly just that, not just once, but twice in your last post. I like how you accuse someone when you are the aggressor. </p>

<p>By the way, if you keep putting misinformation one after another, you have nobody but yourself to blame even if others become less courteous to you. But looks like you need to first distinguish the difference between lack of courtesy and personal attack. </p>

<p>

Again, please check the SAT scores on collegeboard.com. NU’s SAT scores are actually on par with about half the Ivies. I really don’t think taking a few minutes to check these readily available facts is too much to ask for.

This is absurd…

I talked about both the PA score and the overall rank. Any signaling effects from USN is actually gonna put NU on par with at least 2 of the Ivies; the brand of Ivies was established well before USN ranking started. You shouldn’t even mention USN at the first place. So much for accusing me of lacking reading comprehension…</p>

<p>Mr. Lee, you began your reply by saying I should not have posted at all. Very rude, hence my payback to you , of which I am not proud.</p>

<p>Since I am talking of Ivies, Caltech, MIT and Stanford, the SAT scores of most of these schools are higher, not all. Look up the write up for Rhodes, emphasis on athletics, and service. Fully 25% of Rhodes winners are varsity athletes. Let us forget about PA altogether since I have consistently questioned it.</p>

<p>Yes, there are top students at all schools who may be comparable to some at the Ivies, there are select colleges within public schools like Ross, etc, there are honors dorms, etc where you can interact with those closer to your intellectual potential.</p>

<p>However, at the end of the day, NU and Michigan do not have the brand of the Ivies including the lower Ivies, Brown and Cornell. You can win all the battles by showing me how the SAT bands for NU is better than Brown, etc but the Ivies practise holistic admissions (I am not saying Michigan does not but on the whole public schools go more by numbers) and the students body is stronger.</p>

<p>McKinsey and Goldman and the top law firms openly talk of how many of their employees come from ivy league, they dont mention NU and Michigan.</p>

<p>Hmom5:
I have heard this a lot but could you please explain this:

Thanks.</p>

<p>The reason I ask as I know some studnets at Harvard with 3.9 GPA did not get summer itme or full time offer to work in Wall street. Some students who worked this summer as summer intern at GS/MS or other companies and were offered return offer did not choose to prusue full time at these companies. They choose to puruse full time offer at differnt companies or different career such as consulting and left IBD. Thanks for explaining it if you can. </p>

<p>Hmom5 wrote:

</p>

<p>re # 52 & 55: Not with you here, swami, there are undoubtedly tons of great students at Northwestern and U Mich. Uniformity of student body, or average scores acrosss all programs, however irrelevant, at a multi-college university, should not necessarily matter to an employer as much as the absolute numbers of top tier candidates at the school- so long as the employer can limit who they have to interview there- via GPA minimums for interviews, and/ or interview only at elite programs within the U- to just this pool of top candidates there. Grads of these two schools have accomplished much.</p>

<p>Whether grads of these schools actually have totally equal crack at a few particular entry level jobs is one thing, but if they don’t there really isn’t that much justification for it, IMO, besides the customary recruiting practices of certain firms, and maybe geography.</p>

<p>moneydad, I am not sure I understand you but let me take a crack: employers do not have unlimited time and resources, sure there are stellar students at Podunk U but a top employer like Google will have to sift more mediocre students to find that gem. Why do that when you can go to Harvard and fill your recruiting needs? it is a fact that the top employers restrict their hiring to the top schools irrespective of the fact that Ross and NU may have a few top students. This is not to denigrate Ross or NU but they are lower in the pecking order than Princeton or Columbia.</p>

<p>

You were wrong in Shanghai rankings <em>and</em> faculty on national academies and much more. So Michigan is lower-tier now because the majority of Ivies/tech insitutes, and Stanford are way above it (I don’t know about that) but Brown/Dartmouth are first-tier even though they are further down the list? I don’t think your point and logic are valid. You shouldn’t even bring up the graduate/faculty rankings either.</p>

<p>They don’t have to sift thru the chaff, they just establish criteria for who they will interview, so they only deal with the top students…
Even in my MBA program they did that.</p>