<p>So, this may sound weird to people on this board, but I'm having a very tough time choosing between Umich and College of the Holy Cross. It's hard for me to compare because they're so extremely different.
On one hand, umich has an excellent reputation, very top-rated academics in all departments. No one can disagree that umich is a great school with tons of opportunities.
On the other hand, HC is a great place. Great profs from what I've heard, and from day 1 I'd be in a SMALL class setting with PROFs, not grad students teaching. And, the more I hear about UofM (I'm in-state so I know many people there) the more I hear that the grad student teachers don't disappear as you move up, they're still teaching 200 even 300-level courses. Plus, at HC I've felt so welcomed, everyone I've communicated with has been almost shockingly nice. And I'm catholic, and the whole Jesuit thing is right up my alley. But, there's not as much prestige or name recognition of HC. I'm going to be a poli-sci, pre-law major, so networking and connections are of course vital, as is admittence to a top law school.</p>
<p>So, what makes Umich so much better (I assume most people will take that view at least)? Specifics would be helpful, especially don't say "well umich has more opportunities" that doesn't help me much.</p>
<p>What would you choose, and, more importantly, WHY? How do I go about evaluating these schools fairly so that I'll end up at the best school for me?
Thanks for the help!</p>
<p>(x-posted to one of the more main boards too, sorry)</p>
<p>For some majors, I'd say it should come down to feel, but if you're serious about getting an awesome education in political science and possibly pursuing law school, I don't think you can afford to pass up a Michigan education. We have a top 3 poliitical science program, but you seem to know that already. As far as grad students teaching or disappearing, I have not had a single grad student teach a course of mine. Ever. Some classes have GSI's, some don't, but in my case, they never showed up. Holy Cross may have a greater proportion of classes taught by profs, but in political science, these profs are probably of the same caliber as Umich grad students anyways (since our program is so good). The point is, you may or may not have large classes (i never have), and you may or may not have GSI's (I never have), but in the end, it shouldn't make that much of a difference anyway because grad students often make better educators than professors and small classes don't really teach you much more than large classes. Unless you find the atmosphere and feel of Holy Cross to be THAT much better (so that it somehow counteracts the difference in educational quality in polisci), then go there, but class size is definitely not a reason to choose HC.</p>
<p>taylor_blast...those are some 2 very different schools. From a personal standpoint, I'd recommend UMich for its academics. From my school alone, 10-15 kids go to Holy Cross every year and they aren't on par w/ the people that go to UMich. My friend is a total messup with a 3.2 GPA and horrible SAT's and he got in. People like that wouldn't get into UMich. On the other hand, you have a good point regarding class sizes and such. UMich is highly respected by people everywhere. I wouldn't count Holy Cross on the same level as them...maybe a level down. Its not really a top LAC. However, Holy Cross is good as well and if you like the small school setting and jesuit atmosphere I say go with it. Coming out of both you will be able to go places. From what I recall, HC is ranked 42 among LAC's while UMich is 25 or so in top national universities. Its a big difference, but if that isn't much of a factor for you, I recommend going with the school you see yourself fitting in the best since it will determine how well you do and what kind of experiences you have for the next 4 years. GL</p>
<p>Oh whoops, but still UMich is better academically. I have a few friends going to HC next year - I personally am a big school kind of guy..I can't see myself at a school with ~3000 kids. Make your decision based on your gut feeling when you visited...which one you can see yourself at.</p>
<p>hey taylor im going through the same decision as you...only i havent gotten my final word from UMICH. As of right now i am leaning toward HC for two reasons (1) much smaller school and smaller classes. I am going to be a Bio major so having 50 students at the most in my Intro classes is a big difference than 300-500. And right now i feel as if i am only a application number to Umich. It should not take this long to make a decision. (2) I believe classes should be taught by professors not grad students...some on here are saying that the grad students are as good as the profs at HC well i can tell you thats wrong. Most of the profs have been there for a long time (20+ yrs in a couple cases) and i would have to assume that a prof with 20 yrs experience would be better than a grad student. </p>
<p>Also take everyone's opinions with a grain of salt, im boosting HC here but everyone will lean to UMich and i would have to say visit both and go to the one you feel comfortable at.</p>
<p>Thanks everyone for the help, definitely appreciate it!</p>
<p>khall, I have to say I'm a bit surprised that there's someone in such a similar situation as me. Are you in-state, by the way?</p>
<p>I agree on the prof issue, I highly doubt the TAs or whatever you're going to call them at UofM are better than the profs at HC. </p>
<p>I still have a factor missing from my decision though, UofM, for whatever reason, is sending my financial stuff this week, which will definitely weigh in on my choice. HC offered me a VERY generous scholarship, but considering the total cost, UofM wouldn't have a difficult time getting to the same point since I'm in state. In state at UofM is less than half the price of HC....so that will weigh in. I've been leaning towards HC for quite some time, but lately I'm coming to the conclusion that, if the $ factor goes my way (it's a pretty huge factor for my family) at UofM then I probably wont be able to ignore the fact that I'd be getting a very very top poli-sci education for very cheap.</p>
<p>More views, thoughts, whatever, is more than welcome, thanks again everyone.</p>
<p>TAs teaching 300 level classes? That's not very common at all. At the 200 level, I am sorry to say that you will have TAs, but PhD students at Michigan brilliant and they only lead sections, not lectures. Lectures are always taught by full professors. Besides, I am willing to bet that many of Michigan's PhD students are as good as/better than Holy Cross professors. Michigan PhD students are future faculty members at top 20 programs and are leaders in their respective fields.</p>
<p>And although classes at HC aren't big, they aren't small either. In fact, both Michigan and HC have roughly 50% of their classes with fewer than 20 students. So yes, Freshman year, you will have a few huge classes at Michigan that you won't have at HC. However, once you get past that stage, your classes won't be much bigger at Michigan. </p>
<p>As for financial aid, doesn't Michigan cost you like $17,000 since you are an in-stater? Holy Cross costs about $41,000 right? Even if HC gives you $20,000, Michigan is still cheaper. </p>
<p>Finally, Political Science and Law School placement. Michigan is significantly better than HC in those departments. Michigan's PS department is arguably the best in the nation. And Michigan places 150 students into top 10 Law schools annually...and another 150 students into 15-30 Law schools. Holy Cross sends less than 10 students to top 10 Law schools annually. Currently, there are 0 Holy Cross students at Harvard, UVA and Michigan Law schoools...compared to 300 Michigan students at those same three law schools.</p>
<p>HC is a highly rated LAC which sends many of its grads to top grad schools including Georgetown, Duke, Yale etc. Since US News began ranking, Holy Cross has always been ranked from top 25-32 and with a 41% increase in applications, very successful $200 million capital campaign look for school's ranking to improve. Both very good schools but very different as Amherst and Cal would be.</p>
<p>I don't think you can go wrong either way. I know it feels like a hard choice, but you have the assurance that both are great places with something special to offer.</p>
<p>taylor, you really shouldn't assume HC profs are better than Michigan Grad students. Especially in the polisci department, these students are going to be professors at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton in a matter of a couple years. I'm not really sure how you can say that a year or two more spent on a narrow dissertation is going to change their ability to teach. In light of the statistics presented on Michigan's class size and their abilities of their instructors, I think the case for Holy Cross is crumbling.</p>
<p>Well, I will say that umich is sounding more appealing to me now, definitely, so thank you all.
I'm not completely sold on the prof issue, but on the general political science department there's obviously no argument to be made. I do think I was somewhat blinded by the small school aspect of HC, thinking about class sizes. And while there are major differences, they're not so drastic or difficult to overcome as I had imagined.
Alexandre, thanks especially to you, your posts are always very helpful. HC actually offered me much more then 20k as far as my whole aid package (minus loans) is concerned. Mostly, it's all payed for with very minimal loans offered by HC. But yeah, I've been telling people that HC offered a great aid package, but umich wouldn't have too hard of a time getting to a comparable level.</p>
<p>Question,
Are there any more specific stats on lsat scores and placement into law schools from Umich, a website perhaps that I don't know about?</p>
<p>Here are stats of Michigan's placement into Law schools. It is pretty impressive. I'd say only a dozen or so colleges and universities do a better job.</p>
<p>taylor im out of state so money really doesnt affect me as there is only about 3,000 difference for me but i called today and found out i wont till next week for umich so thats not cool...one week to decide</p>
<p>from the another thread it sounds like all decisions are mailed friday, and very likely posted on wolverine access. Although, I guess out of state means you wont have the letter until next week, you still might be able to get your decision online. </p>
<p>I'm leaning more toward uofm every day....maybe a good thing, because, unless there are drastic circumstances, the better academic school should probably win....at least in my opinion.</p>