Stanley1, wow, you definitely have a hard decision. One good thing is as an in-stater yourself (I’m assuming you’re in-state, as you said you’d be paying about 236K in total for UMKC), regardless, you’ll be relatively close to home. SLU’s Med Scholars program and WUSTL’s USPM are very difficult to get acceptances to, so you definitely seem to be a cream of the crop student.
I’m very surprised you got NO merit scholarships from WUSTL as you got in their University Scholars Program in Medicine.
I do not know if the WUSTL medical school interview is just a formality for USPM students, but keeping up a 3.8 and getting a 36 is not a cakewalk in the park, but not impossible. Even if you don’t get a 3.8 and a 36 MCAT (but within a reasonable range) you’d be more than competitive for a medical school than the general population as there are TONS of people who have gotten into a medical school without a 3.8 or a 36 MCAT.
Even if you decide not to go for medicine, you still have a solid undergraduate degree from a top notch undergraduate school, and it’s not like you lost any time.
You still take the MCAT and they say “At the appropriate time, you will be required to take the MCAT; however, your score does not affect admission. As a Medical Scholar, though, you are expected to achieve your highest possible score on the MCAT.”
It doesn’t say when you would have to accept their provisional offer (you should call SLU and ask them when you HAVE to give them an answer by), although it would probably be relatively soon after you receive it in the summer before your junior year. This is so that SLU doesn’t take a risk finding out late in your senior year that they had saved a spot for you in their med school and you will no longer be attending.
So it does not seem to be the case that you can apply during application season, and still be able to hold the SLU acceptance at the end, if it doesn’t pan out. The moment you do decide to apply out through AMCAS, that provisional SLU acceptance is automatically rescinded, or at least that’s how I interpret it to be. It all comes down to when you have to make a decision by which you can call and find out or ask someone in the SLU program.
Cost is one aspect of all this, but more importantly, the QUALITY (basic science/clinical science education, ability to match in the field you want (even competitive specialties), research opportunities to build up your CV or help you in the residency match, if you desire) of the medical school you are getting for that cost is MUCH more important: [AAMC:</a> Applying to Medical School: Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked](<a href=“http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/31questions.htm]AAMC:”>http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/31questions.htm)
I would say with that in mind, SLU and WUSTL are the ones you have to really decide between (you probably knew that already). It pretty much comes down to your career specialty goals, confidence in your abilities to meet their requirements, your determination, drive, and time management skills all of which will help you to stay focused and on track. As far as UMKC’s program - you have enough thread posts here to decide whether the program really is a quality program for you for the amount you’re paying.
I also probably didn’t help in giving a definitive answer as well, but we can only give you advice on what is important to take into consideration in reaching the decision you ultimately make.
Adding to what HappytoGraduate said, I would also add that if you for some reason do not bring in any chemistry credit into the program: You will have to take Chemistry I with Lab in the Fall, Chemistry II with Lab in the Spring, and then Organic Chemistry with Lab in the Summer.
If this will be your situation, as said in a previous post by HappytoGraduate, then enroll in Biology 202: Cell Biology in the Year 1 Fall Semester. You will have 3 sciences in the Fall: Chem I with Lab (which is easy, esp. if you’ve had AP Chem), Anatomy with Lab, and Cell Biology, BUT since it will be spread out over 16 weeks, it will be a lot easier to study, process, and do well on exams.
If you see my story from Post 1550, your summer will be pretty miserable if you have to take all 3 classes after Year 1 in the summer: Orgo, Orgo Lab, and Cell Bio so lighten the load early on.
The prerequisites for Cell Biology are usually General Biology I and II for undergraduates but for BA/MD students who do the BLA and don’t take General Bio anyways, it wouldn’t apply to you.
Wouldn’t it be better to take Cell Bio in spring in this case, MD2B2012? Because the spring semester has only Chem II and Lab while the fall semester has med school anatomy courses along with Chem I and Lab.
As far as required science courses in the BLA for med students, in the spring semester of Year 1 you take Chem II and Chem II Lab, LS-Micro 121 and LS-Micro 121 Lab.
Also just to be clear, the Anatomy course you are taking is an undergraduate course, not a medical school course, as are Chemistry I/II, Organic Chem, and Micro 121, Cell Bio 202, Genetics 206, which any undergraduate can take if they choose.
Cell Biology 202 is only offered in the Fall semester (16 weeks) and Summer semester (8 weeks).
Genetics 206 is only offered in the Fall and Spring semesters (16 weeks).
LS-Micro 121? In the orientation guide they sent me, they have a major map for the BLA route. I’ve double-checked and this class is not present in the spring semester of Year 1. In fact, it is not there in the Chem Major and Bio Major maps as well.
Thank you for clarifying the courses and their timings. I had no idea!
Hey guys! Im a current 4th-year in the program right now. Its so weird coming back to these forums so many years later, and seeing all the stuff people are saying now. I REALLY wish I had known some of this stuff before I had made my decision. I dont regret going to the program, and Ive made some great friends. I just realize so much more now.
Heres my advice: if you got into another combined program like Mizzou, Northwestern, or SLU, you should probably go there. Youll get to have the real college experience, and a spot saved in the med school. From what Ive seen, maintaining the GPA requirements at those schools is easy.
Also, if coming here is your parents choice and not yours, then you probably wont be happy here. Many kids come here just because their parents think that theyll be set for life. It isnt worth it to go to a place you dont want to just for them. It seems like these are the kids who usually end up being the most bitter, too. Only come here if you are 100% set on doing medicine. I cant reiterate this enough. This is the profession you will be doing for the rest of the life. Do what really makes you happy. Dont do this for the money because you will be severely disappointed.
And dont think that just because you dont go to UMKC, you wont be able to get into Med School. My two best friends from high school went to WashU and Northwestern as pre-meds. One realized that medicine wasnt for her, and the other one is going to a very prestigious med school next year. They got to have the normal college experience AND they can probably be just as successful. I have to admit that I was a bit jealous when I saw their college pictures on Facebook when it seemed like they were having fun, while I was always studying. Be prepared to sacrifice a lot here. From what Ive heard, the MCAT isnt that bad. Its like the ACT. You stress about it, you take it, and then you never think about it again. As a naïve high schooler, I was convinced that the MCAT was the devil, and I would never be smart enough to get into med school. Dont think that if you dont go to UMKC, you wont be able to get into med school. You will quickly realize that UMKC was NOT the easy way out that you thought it would be.
I dont hate my experience at UMKC, but I just wish I had known that getting into med school isnt the impossible task that people make it out to be. In the grand scheme of things, saving 2 years isnt much, and wont make a difference, except that you will have less life experience under your belt. Also, if you plan on matching into a competitive specialty (plastics, urology, dermatology, orthopedics, etc.), you will be at a severe disadvantage here, especially on the boards.
I dont want this to deter anyone from going here. I just want people to think about their decisions before they do something that will greatly affect the rest of their life. Do what makes YOU happy. If you want to be a lawyer or do something in business, I would say go to SLU or Northwesterns programs because you can take other classes, so that if you decide that you do not want to be a doctor youre not screwed. Your parents will see what makes you happy and eventually be a little more lax with you. Plus, you’ll get to experience a real city. Kansas City is kind of a hole. And you’ll get a real education. UMKC doesn’t prepare us for life as much as they made us think during orientation, interview days etc.
If anyone has any questions about life at UMKC, my decisions, etc. feel free to PM me.
Chomo87, are you in-state, regional, or out-of-state? Also I tried to find this out from the school but never got an answer, what is UMKC’s USMLE Step 1 average? Did you feel that your basic science curriculum adequately prepared you well for national boards? Thank you for coming on this board to help people in giving truthful and realistic answers to our questions.
Well, like everyone else who entered the program, I was planning on completing all 6 years to receive my BA and MD. I certainly did not plan on leaving ahead of time, but after that first summer semester, I knew it would be better to leave when my GPA was near perfect, rather than after one or two more semesters, when I would be essentially locked into the program with no way out, without taking more time than the 4+4 route. Of course, I also did not know at the time I would be getting into UPenn Medicine either. UMKC is one of the few schools where almost everyone is a student starting after high school.
While I agree not every student who ends up choosing UMKC may have been competitive enough to get an acceptance into more top-tier combined Bachelor/MD programs, there were quite a few in my year (mainly out-of-state, but some in-state) that had applied and gotten acceptances into better combined Bachelor/MD programs as well as very good 4 year undegraduate institutions, but ended up going to UMKC’s BA/MD program. Most of them now regret that decision.
Well obviously with respect to applying to medical school, combined degree students (whether 6, 7, or 8 year) are a very small percentage of the overall medical student population. I would have to disagree with you on the “cream of the crop” aspect. These students don’t have a university GPA or MCAT score, but if you look at academics, standardized test scores (SAT, SAT II, AP exams), extracurricular activities, etc. they are quite impressive, esp. applicants to top Bachelor/MD programs.
While not at UMKC - where the school purposefully chooses most for acceptance all over Missouri, most combined degree students accepted at combiend programs of Northwestern, Brown, UPitt, etc. are very “cream of the crop” and in all likelihood would have gotten into top medical schools in the 4+4 route assuming at the end of 4 years, they still would have applied for medical school. At a few programs, the process is still the same as the student is required to take the MCAT (although some may require at least a certain score). As far as being around people who are basically same place in life, you also have to see the other side of the coin, which is the maturity factor (or lack thereof) at that age AND that even in 4+4 you have a variety of ages as well (not everyone is 22), so it’s not that hard for us to get along, just bc of a difference in age. In fact at UMKC, I think a lot of the time our valid complaints were dismissed, bc of our age.
Yes, but you can’t compare a premed getting washed out from a year and a half of “normal” undergrad vs. the UMKC BA/MD student getting washed out bc the latter student is taking almost 22 credit hours per semester (more than any “normal” undergraduate would ever be allowed take), is required to be enrolled in all summers (which most undergrads have the option to take a summer or not), AND already in their 2nd year of college are taking actual medical school level courses (which are very different in level of detail and difficulty than undergraduate courses). Not to mention UMKC BA/MD students are GREATLY limited in the Bachelor degree they can choose bc more likely than not, it just won’t fit in the six year program. One can easily space out the very few premed requirements through undergrad and take the MCAT in time, without taking summers - those who come in with AP credit have it even easier.
I agree with you fully on that but the ONLY reasons high school students apply to these programs in the first place are
<h1>1: to avoid taking the MCAT (or you take it but it does not have count for anything of significance)</h1>
<h1>2: Guaranteed admission to medical school (after a few doable requirements have been met)</h1>
<h1>3: Decreased time interval to receive the MD (for 6/7 year programs) - which at UMKC is done by running year round all 6 years and taking out required/prereq courses</h1>
Certainly if the above 3 enticements weren’t there, there would be no advantage whatsoever to doing these programs and one would be much better off doing a normal 4 year undergraduate course of study.
Very few students look at the quality of the medical school in the first place and concentrate on the guaranteed acceptance first, bc they HEAR about how hard it is to get into medical school and then this gets magnified times 20 to where the person thinks if they don’t do a combined program they will never be able to get into medical school which is utterly wrong as only a maximum of 5% of med students are combined program students.
For many of these combined programs (not all - as some are a very good deal), if it was based on quality of the specific medical school alone - many of these schools would not be able to attract the level of students they get esp. from out-of-state, like UMKC or NEOUCOM. Most high schoolers that I met on the interview trail (except me) were applying to a whole slew of combined BS/MD or BA/MD programs besides UMKC. The very top medical schools in the country don’t really need to have these programs as they already get quality students through the normal 4+4 already. It’s not to their advantage. As UMKC is one of the only ones I know in which EVERYONE is a 6 year student starting after high school (except the MD-onlys which are brought in to fill up seats lost through attrition).
Well to be honest, I am speaking from my personal experience, of which I limit to my Year 1 at UMKC along with the first summer semester. There are several other CC posters on this thread that have attended the program and have not liked it, so I wouldn’t exactly categorize it as “pathological need to run the school down or try and sway perspective students from it.” Students who are forgoing doing a 4 year undergrad for a guaranteed acceptance need to know first hand the realities of every aspect of the program - esp. one like UMKC’s which doesn’t really have an easy avenue to leave as many requirements are taken out: Physics I and II, Organic Chemistry I and II, and Biology I and II. Every program in it’s brochures will be trumpeting the guaranteed medical acceptance as to why to come to their school. High schoolers here want to find out the nitty gritty beyond the brochures, the pamphlets, the propaganda, etc. to see whether it’s really worth the amount of tuition they would be paying for at UMKC.
Just remember if a student leaves, even after the 2nd year of the program the only thing they have is a Bachelors of Liberal Arts coming from UMKC which they’ve paid more than double of what an undergrad would have paid. That’s the reality sadly of the program, and I’ve seen many former classmates who ended up leaving (whether voluntarily or involuntarily) later with massive debt and nothing to show for it.
Also I really think that those who apply are “poor, naive”, to quote you, not bc they chose UMKC, but bc many after several years in the program become severely disillusioned by what they are paying for, right or wrong. While I realize no school is perfect, the truth is many of UMKC’s problems DO in fact go back to it’s lack of funding from the state unlike UM-Columbia’s medical school which is touted as the state flagship and thus gets heavy funding and endowments.
Also, to be fair, your experience as an MD-only would not be applicable to the first 2 years of the program. I’m sure in completing your undergraduate degree you didn’t have to involuntary take summer semesters or take regular semesters of 22 credit hours as an undergraduate student. Also by now, many students’ bitterness may not be on full display to you as you wouldn’t understand, vs. one of their 6 yr. friends in which they are more likely to get commiseration.
As far as attrition rate, yes the first 2 years are technically classified as undergraduate, and the last 4 years are the “medical school” portion. Thus officially for medical school attrition UMKC only has to start the attrition rate once Year 2 is over for the MSAR. However, you do have to keep in mind that the 20% attrition rate (these are people who LEAVE the program, not extended) are failing not in undergraduate classes but in medical school coursework like Biochem and Human Structure Function.
But good luck to you, I know for you as an MD-only as well, you also had to go through the process of undergrad, MCAT, etc. and you chose the school you wanted to go to based on your personal situation as well. I think though for a lot of 6 year students they feel jipped (rightfully in my opinion), as displayed by chomo87’s post - which I think very accurately displays the disillusionment many of my former classmates felt - esp. those who were paying out-of-state tuition.
There is no limit on actual transfer credit - done at a community college or at a university. If the credit is not taken through the University of Missouri system (UMKC, UMSL, UM-Columbia, UM-Rolla), then you are only given credit, if you take it in the University of Missouri system you get grade points as well.
[University</a> of Missouri - Kansas City : Transfer and External Sources of Credit](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/catalog/2008-09/undergraduate/pg8.html]University”>http://www.umkc.edu/catalog/2008-09/undergraduate/pg8.html)
It doesn’t register you for classes, but it will show you all the combinations on how your classes can be arranged and you pick based on that what sections to enroll in. It’s helpful esp. for those classes with multiple sections, to see how you want your class days spaced out.
It’s updated at the end of every semester for the next semester, so it’s already updated for the Fall.
You may have seen my posts early on-- I’m about to start my 5th year in the program, so if you have any questions, don’t hesitate to ask. These forums helped me out when I was applying.
People seem to be be getting really caught up on the fact that getting into this program means you won’t have to take the MCAT, and will be saving two years, but I just wanted to emphasize that my #1 reason for choosing UMKC (and the #1 reason why I’m glad I came here, as well as the reason I’d recommend coming here) is the early and constant clinical exposure, as well as the Docent Team model.
In addition to having clinical correlates in lecture, your 1st 2 yrs you go to the hospital once a week with your team of 10 students & get to see what you’re learning in lecture in action, & participate in it. By your 3rd yr, you begin seeing patients w/a senior partner, & soon you are seeing patients on your own, & eventually you have your own junior partner to teach. I love this aspect of the program, but not everyone does-- students not really interested in physician-patient interaction don’t care for the early/constant clinical exposure, & people who prefer to be more independent don’t like the responsibility of having a junior partner. Maybe I’m jumping to conclusions, but if you want to go into radiology or pathology, maybe this program isn’t for you. But if you think seeing patients every week will keep you motivated and reminded of why you want to be a doctor, this may be the program for you. Other than being motivating, the set up of course also provides more opportunity in the clinical setting.
The program may not be perfect, but it is certainly unique in the aspects I just mentioned.
Thanks for posting about what UMKC is known for and the main reason I chose to attend. I did not choose to go the 4+4 way because I know exactly what I want to do in life, and that is to become a doctor. I had full ride scholarships to other places and decent scholarships at private universities that could have set me on the path to getting into a prestigious med school.
But where I come from, they call UMKC med school students “six-year wonders” not because they went to a prestigious med school but because they are incredibly knowledgeable in regard to clinical rotations and above the normal skill level of typical residents. This is obviously not coming from my own experiences but from the mouths of graduates and current students. I think that anyone who wants to become a great doctor can do it either the traditional way or the BA/MD way and still be successful, but the experience of starting clinicals from the age of 18 is not to be overlooked.
Tessmedlin09 - you bring up a very valid point, however:
From your own experience as you said, UMKC med students are called “six year wonders” (But just to be clear NEOUCOM and Penn State/Jefferson Medical College also have 6 year medical programs as well), so that’s not really that impressive. The time factor is not, and should not, be the most important factor. It’s the quality of education at UMKC both in the first 2 years (basic science) AND the last 2 years (clinical science) that are important as you have to get through the first two years in order to get to the last 2 years.
You also say that students are “incredibly knowledgeable in regard to clinical rotations and above the normal skill level of typical residents”. First off you say “this is obviously not coming from my own experiences but from the mouths of graduates and current students.” — Did you expect current students to tell you any differently? While those students doing rotations may think they have better clinical skills than those from other schools, that doesn’t necessarily mean that is true or attendings will think that is true. The same for graduates of the program. This could just be a case of hyperinflated ego and school pride.
I notice however, you didn’t say that this was said by the people who actually count: residency program directors and attending faculty at competitive programs at institutions OTHER THAN UMKC. If this was so, the places that UMKC students get into would be MUCH more impressive than they are now in looking at match lists. If students really were “six year wonders” with respect to clinical medicine and skill level, why are the places people match into not that great?
Also as far as clinical exposure early: ALL medical schools now have some type of early clinical exposure for their medical students during the basic science years, not just UMKC. Based on what I’ve looked up that has been a national trend. So once again, touting early patient exposure is nothing new.
Also as far as the docent system the first 2 years, I’ve heard for most, that it’s nothing that couldn’t be gained from premed volunteering or a physical diagnosis book, and ends up being a waste of time. I don’t know how your experience was though.
