UMKC 6-year BS/MD Program

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
4121

@Roentgen -
Thank you for your comments and wisdom.
My problem is that I was “sold” on UMKC last summer during thier dog and pony show, I loved the Simm lab, and everything was fantastic. Plus, I had hoped to go to UMKC since I first read about in during elementary school. I have applied to other accelerated programs, and the DO was the bottom of the list and UMKC ranked right after it, with the other schools higher up. But, still - inside I knew that even if I was offered a spot at a “better” program, my heart and spirit were focused on UMKC, and I would pick UMKC if offered the chance. Then I interviewed at UMKC and all of a sudden RED FLAGs of warning! Now after the interview, I am doing more and more research on UMKC - due diligence that I was to dumb to have started last July; and this due diligence is showing a lot of negatives with UMKC!

So much of my ramblings are my thoughts as I process this and try to conclude how good or bad UMKC really is. I have to say, that for right now, I have concluded what one Asian father told me is correct, there came from California and when I asked what did his son think about UMKC his answer was, “My son applied to 4 programs, his grades and scores are good but not great, only UMKC offered to interview him, so he likes UMKC.” I had interviewed elsewhere, so I did not think about his comment at the time. But, now I am thinking about his comment, and it seems that UMKC students are usually those that cannot get into a different accelerated medical program, or they live in KC (sorry, @Roentgen this is a paraphrase of something you wrote some time ago, so I cannot take credit for it, I only wish I had read it last summer). Then I think of the applicant who had no calculator because he did not know he had to take the Toledo Chem test, and the applicant who did not know there would be interview stations, he thought it was a traditional interview. Then I see how correct you were, @Roentgen, those that accept UMKC’s offers are either those who had no other BS/MD program or who lived close by. And that conclusion is something that I never would have accepted prior to last month! But, now I see how true it is.

Re osteopathic medicine, the reason I mention it is because that was the “dog” on my list of medical programs. I do not want to offend any DO, student or DO physician, so please do not take offense, but in general, osteopathic school takes lower qualified students, that is those with lower grades and lower MCATs. I cannot imagine a pre-med student with a 3.98 GPA and a 35 MCAT going into an osteopathic program. I do not mean the programs are bad, I mean the students in them generally are the ones who cannot get into an MD program. Just as I cannot see a top student going abroad to Ross Medical School.

I used a DO program as a failsafe choice, and I was shocked that I was offered money, but it remained a failsafe choice, in case I was rejected by everyone else. But, since I have started to see the reality behind UMKC, I have started to wonder, which school is my failsafe, UMKC or the DO. This is unbelievable, I never would have entertained such a though prior to my interview and subsequent research; but now I am actually thinking it over! Yes, I agree, there is a prejudice against DOs for residencies, and I do not mean to sound like a redneck, but there is a reason and it is true, it is because osteopath students are lower quality re grades and MCAT (sorry, I sound like a old fashioned segregationist, but I am not). But given the money involved and other factors, I am wondering the real impact of this prejudice osteopath students, especially when comparing the prejudice against UMKC students. Yes, there is a “prejudice” against UMKC students, and for the same reason as there is prejudice against DO students - UMKC students are lower quality re grades and gpa than other accelerated medical programs. So, I started wondering, should the DO program or the DO program be on the bottom of my list, when UMKC is so much more expensive.
Assuming that I go into primary care, my conclusion is that between DO and UMKC, there is no difference. I base this conclusion on my research and on what @Roentgen, wrote in June of last year:

Roentgen -
05-24-2014 at 7:54 pm
…

If your desire is Primary Care (IM/Peds/FM) or a noncompetitive specialty, then DO is fine and you’ll save
$180,000 which will buy you a nice house. It’s also very close to your home which is a big bonus. But if you
want to subspecialize or specialize, esp. in something competitive, then the MD route is the best. It’s not a
guarantee, but at least it won’t be closed off to you in the beginning. That being said, if your niece is someone
who will get homesick easily, wants a good study-life balance, doesn’t want to rush things, then UMKC’s program
is not worth it, esp. if it will irreparably destroy her performance, which will be hard to recover from.

4122

@AdVitam, I’m honestly very surprised that the medical school revealed in an admissions/medical school interview presentation that UMKC’s average board scores are low. Most students find this out long after they’ve matriculated when it’s too late. I’d be even more surprised if they actually posted average scores. Maybe more and more people are asking them or there has been a change in admissions, I don’t know. It definitely does not benefit them in any way. The schools that post their scores are usually the ones for whom their average is always high. For example, the University of Virginia: http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/handbook/academics/licensure.cfm - where you can at least see the national average each year. Usually at most med schools, you can find average board scores, in things like med school newsletters or matriculated students are told at meetings. I think US World News and Report reveals average board scores for medical schools if you buy the premium subscription to the US News compass for best grad school rankings. Don’t know if it has UMKC’s though.

I would be careful about choosing a combined program solely bc it’s your only acceptance. I’ve known people in my class who came to UMKC either bc it was the only combined BS/MD program they applied to (and they got an acceptance) or it was the only one they got accepted to, after receiving rejections from others. They tended to be the most unhappy, bc their only reasons for coming was the 6 year/no MCAT, without evaluating whether UMKC’s med school was really an overall good “fit” for them.

4123

@HopingMD, a combined 6/7/8 year program is just an alternate route to the same endpoint. I guarantee you residency directors are not evaluating residency applicants based on their undergraduate GPAs and/or MCATs at that time. If you have 2 students of exactly the same caliber and exactly the same in every way, one being at a U.S. DO school and the other having being at a U.S. MD school, the U.S. MD school candidate will win out, even if that med school is ranked dead last. That’s just the bias and is the way it is. The gold standard, so to speak, is the U.S. allopathic graduate.

It’s one thing if you’re 100% set on primary care, but if you’re like most medical students, you have no idea and don’t want to be locked into one thing or another. It’s always better to have a variety of options and not be initially limited. I know many people who came in wanting to do primary care and changed their minds after doing clinical rotations.

All BS/MD programs are competitive to gain admission to. It’s just that the ones at the very top of that group are even more competitive to get an acceptance and require more than the usual: very stellar SAT scores, or taking certain SAT subject tests, or research publications, etc. Medical schools at the top of the pack can afford to be more selective and more choosy. Part of thing with these programs is you compromise in some way, by avoiding the traditional process, to get an acceptance. Some places you’re not compromising at all and in fact can be a great deal. Other places you’re compromising a lot.

Also, that’s not necessarily true. I had friends who got an acceptance to St. Louis University’s Medical Scholars program and turned it down to come to UMKC. Each person is different with what they want. I also think high school seniors can get so overly scared about the entire premed process, based on family and friends, that they’d rather take any guarantee to avoid any risk, not realizing they’re compromising way too much and too soon.

The competitiveness of different combined BS/MD programs is more just a marker of the competitiveness of the medical school you get to be in since the medical school is effectively taking you without getting to see your undergraduate GPA and MCAT.

4124

@Roentgen, I do have the premium US News package, and I could not get any data re UMKC, it seems UMKC doesn’t want to disclose anything to UN News. I was nervous, thinking about the test and interview that morning, and about what I was missing at school, so I was not really listening closely, but the lady on the stage did say that UMKC board scores, and I thought she was talking about Step 1, and she said they were low, and then she talked about the lack of prep and lack of MCAT and I do not remember much more. Now, I wish I had listened better, because I keep hearing for others about" UMKC’s low Step 1 Board scores" and I wonder what those scores actually are?

I hope someone will post UMKC’s actual Step 1 board scores?

Re “good fit.” That is what they lady on stage said too, about us being good fits and UMKC being a good fit. However, for most of us, “good fit” is talk or advice we are given, but never really followed or listened to. Being honest, if UMKC was the only medical program that offered me an acceptance, I would accept it in a New York minute! “Good fit,” low board scores, poor residencies etc would be total BS for my decision; if my choice was between UMKC and be a doctor or go to a local state university and take 4 years of pre-med competition and then MCAT hassles, it would be a “no brainer” for me. And honestly, from all the other interviewees I spoke to that day, they would agree totally with me. No one worries about “fit” if it is the only choice. Now if another school accepts me, then I will look at the pros and cons, there the “fit” comes into play, but that is only if I have a choice, and in that case, I would probably not pick UMKC based on what I know about UMKC.

I am sure those that spent the money and effort to apply and then to interview, absolutely none of them would say no to UMKC because it was not a good fit, if only UMKC accepted that person. And that may explain the high drop out rate in the first two years - people pick it as the school of last resort, and then discover it is not worth all the effort, and thus 20% drop out. It would be good to consider “fit” but once we get this far and expended the time, effort and money, I see no way we would say no to UMKC if it was our only offer of acceptance. Hence my poll - I believe most applicants would pick a different medical program if they got accepted to more than just UMKC. And that hits “good fit” or lack of analysis thereof by most applicants and it explains UMKC’s high drop out rate as well as low performance by many UMKC students.

4125

@Roentgen,

You and I are both redneck brothers, we both are prejudiced about DOs and we both say it is rightly so, namely that as a general rule the MD schools accept high quality students. An MD degree is as you say, “the gold standard.” Sorry, I know you are not a redneck, it is just we both feel the same about DO programs.

I also agree that what one believes he wants to practice today may be very different in several years. I had an older friend who wanted to be a gyn, but on his rotation he and the lead doctor did not get along, because he knew he would get a poor recommendation he picked a different field to seek for his residency.

I also agree with your words that “If your desire is Primary Care (IM/Peds/FM) or a noncompetitive specialty, then DO is fine.” I only wish that I had read your words last July, because you zeroed into a key point, that MD may be the gold standard but in many cases it may be little different from other approaches!

Most medical school gradates go into Primary Care, yes some may go for a fellowship later, but the vast majority will go on to primary care doctors according to the data out in the real world. So you opened our eyes to make sure we really think about UMKC and consider if it is the best school for us. Even if we only considered accelerated MD programs, there are other options we need to open our eyes to and examine! Thank you for your advice and guidance!

Following the above, I was following your wisdom and then adding the cost factor and questioning UMKC stating that if I knew I wanted primary care, meaning that in this mental exercise I would not change my mind, and then given the high cost and low reputation of UMKC, would it be better than going the osteopathic route? My reasoning was that I had placed the DO school as my “dog” on my list of programs, and I am wondering if I was wrong, if perhaps UMKC should be my “dog.” I have not decided, but I do have many issues with UMKC and I am 100% sure that if another MD program accepts me, even if I have to take the MCAT, then I will take the other accelerated MD program. And that I would never have said prior to February and learning for you and other more and more about UMKC. I am shocked by the change in the way I am looking at UMKC and in my seeing it now as only my school of last resort.

4126

@AdVitam,

Re your poll - Assuming I got an offer or several offer (which is a BIG assumption on my part): (1) If UMKC was the only medical program to accept me, then I would go to UMKC; (2) If I was accepted by BOTH (big dreams here) UMKC and another MD program, then I would pick the other MD program and say no to UMKC.

Let’s see in real life what happens and then it will be time to decide. April 1 is fast approaching!.

4127

@AdVitam, that’s what I’m trying to tell you. UMKC’s BA/MD program is not your “only choice”. It may feel like that way as a scared high school senior, but it’s not true. Obviously if one was accepted to a “better” BS/MD program, one would go there instead of UMKC’s BA/MD program. That’s almost never the dilemma students are facing here.

What I’m trying to tell you is that people who enter the UMKC BA/MD program, because they were too scared to go the traditional route tend to be much more disappointed with UMKC because they quickly figure out that they would have actually done quite well if they had whether that be a better deal financially over all, and/or a better medical school which they would be happy at. Trust me, you haven’t expended anything in terms of time, effort, and money. Wait till you’re like 2-3 years in then you’ll definitely know of not being able to turn back. Trust me, you haven’t wasted anything up to this point. It’s a drop in the bucket.

4128

@HopingMD, I think you’re misunderstanding me. I have tons of friends who were DOs who did quite well in medical school. They aced their classes, did well on the USMLE and COMLEX. DO schools are known to be more forgiving and give a chance to non-traditional students or for people who just had some bad luck in undergrad to become physicians. I’m not telling you my bias. I’m telling you the inherent bias in the system. I’m telling you that some of them going for competitive specialties had a harder time during interview season getting seen by programs, when I would easily get interviews.

I think your statistics is slightly misread. Most American US Graduates who go into a primary care type residency end up becoming specialists. That’s just fact. Here is an article in which the statistic is 80% of IM graduates go on to subspecialty fellowships: http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1475191; http://farleyhealthpolicycenter.org/primary-care-workforce-issues/, and nearly 50% of pediatricians subspecialize. That’s the reason why there is a common complaint that we don’t have enough primary care physicians - it’s because most of our US graduates are specializing - for whatever reasons - better salary, better lifestyle, perceived importance/prestige. It has nothing to do with the different approach for the MD as currently, besides OMT, MD and DO school are relatively the same curriculum. http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/12/20/where-have-all-the-primary-care-doctors-gone/?_r=0

I guess the main question for you is how much of a cost-difference are we looking at here between UMKC and the osteopathic school you are considering. Even many medical school grads at the end of med school who want to go into primary care, readily change their mind after their residency.

4129

@advitam, If you think that “good fit”, low board scores, and poor residency matches is a total BS for your decision, then you are being very, very shortsighted. That’s the entire point of medical school since the MD degree is meaningless without residency. Not everyone can go to a top-tier or top 10 medical school, but you can get into a really good state public school depending on your state.

Of course all the UMKC interviewees agree with you. All of them are just as scared as you are because of what they perceive the traditional route to be - based on what they’ve heard from friends and family. The ones who are confident enough in their abilities and understand that if they can get in thru the BS/MD route as high school students, then they have a good chance of getting in the normal route as well, and maybe even with merit scholarship offerings.

I agree with @Roentgen, some of the most unhappiest people in our class were people who were out-of-state, especially those from places like California, where going home a lot was not a possibility. They tended to whine and complain incessantly the entire time. Not all, but it was almost always due to a mismatch between expectations - or a lack of “fit”. And I went in at a time when it was only in-state tuition/out-of-state tuition only and if you were out-of-state you signed an agreement saying you agreed to pay out-of-state all 6 years or longer.

4130

@UMKCRoosMD, I was looking at 2 of the courses in the degree plans:

I guess my question is how are UMKC BA/MD students allowed to take Genetics if they don’t have to take Biology 108/109. And did you say that you never had to take Cell Bio and Genetics?
http://catalog.umkc.edu/course-offerings/undergraduate/biology/

BIOLOGY 202 Cell Biology Credits: 3
Basic concepts of cellular and subcellular structure and function, including supramolecular and organelle structure and organization, bioenergetics, cell growth and cellular communication.
Prerequisites: BIOLOGY 108, BIOLOGY 109, CHEM 212R, (or CHEM 212R, LS-ANATO 119, LS-ANATO 119L, LS-MCRB 121).

BIOLOGY 206 Genetics Credits: 3
A modern approach integrating molecular and organismal studies of the general genetics of lower and higher organisms. Chromosomal structure and function, gene transmission, heredity, plasticity and population genetics will be discussed.
Prerequisites: BIOLOGY 108, BIOLOGY 109, CHEM 212R.

4131

@PinkPrincess2014,

Do you know the Step 1 scores from interview day?

Also, how would you answer my poll - if you had other MD programs that gave you an offer would you pick any other than UMKC?

I also guess about the "fit "stuff, if UMKC was the only one that gave you an offer, which from your stats seems highly unlikely, but if so, would you automatically take UMKC or would you be concerned if UMKC “fit” you, and possibly take none?

For me, I would ignore “fit” and accept UMKC if it was the only one that accepted me, lol. And if I had another choice for an MD offer that was made, I would take the other offer knowing what I have learned about UMKC’s quality.

Thanks

4132

@PinkPrincess2014,

This was how my curriculum was like when I entered:

Years 1-2: https://web.archive.org/web/19990501115335/http://www.med.umkc.edu/curriculum/policy/curric02.html
Years 3-6: https://web.archive.org/web/19990501121335/http://www.med.umkc.edu/curriculum/policy/curric03.html

Cell Biology (BIO 202) and Genetics (BIO 206) were added on, after my year, as requirements, when it was found that our students were doing poorly on the Genetics and Cell Biology sections of the USMLE Step 1. So our overall curriculum was obviously deficient in that area. So to try to somewhat make up for this, undergrad courses in those subjects were added to be required of all med students regardless of their degree plans since it’s pretty difficult to fit in even more hours in the last 4 years, starting with those enrolling in the program in 1998.

It’s entirely up to the department offering the course, what the prerequisites are to enroll. So if you were normally taking Bio 202/Bio 206, you would have to have already completed General Bio I, General Bio II, and General Chem II. Since medical students don’t currently take General Bio I and II, a specific exception is made for them.

It works the same way for the awarding of an undergraduate degree. It’s completely up to the undergraduate department whether they will allow UMKC medical students to skip certain requirements and still be awarded their degree. There was a student a few years below me who wanted to do a Communication Studies degree and went thru the trouble to get the ball rolling and was able to do so and it’s now an official degree for med students. I know another student who was able to get a Political Science degree and fit it in - but she came in with a lot of credit and took a lot of hours. It’s much harder to do this now, bc students are no longer allowed to take undergraduate courses in the second semester of Year 2, and bc there is now a hard cap on the total number of hours even med students can take in a semester.

One of the articles you pasted kind of tells the history: http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/1997/12/22/story1.html. But when I started in 1997, there was a huge fight between the UMKC School of Biological Sciences and the UMKC medical school regarding the teaching of medical school science courses. It used to be that all the medical school science courses (Biochem I and II, Med Physiology, Gross Anatomy/Histo/Neuroanatomy, Med Micro, Med Neuroscience, etc.) were taught by UMKC School of Biological Sciences faculty. Our board scores were slipping and UMKC was on the verge of losing accreditaion since the LCME (which accredits all US allopathic medical schools) said that med school course teaching should fall under the control of the medical school. The article explains the fight in detail, but in the end what happened was the medical school took over all instruction for the med school courses and created their own Department of Basic Medical Sciences: http://med.umkc.edu/bms/ which is under control of the medical school. The School of Biological Sciences got angry and said they would no longer accept certain medical school courses to fulfill degree requirements for their Biology degree and so they took it away as an option for a very long time before bringing it back - likely bc those deans are no longer in charge. Much different than the School of Dentistry that has always been in good books with them. So in their 6 year BA/DDS program (which has been phased out), they were still allowed to go for Biology degree.

In all honesty, I had some really great science professors at the School of Biological Sciences and a lot of them just personally felt that UMKC med students don’t get a good enough foundation in the sciences overall due to skipping of requirements. One of them, Dr. Doug Law, was one of my best professors who recently passed away and was loved by all students: http://info.umkc.edu/news/remembering-a-popular-professor/, who taught Year 1 Anatomy. I think his course made me enjoy my very first semester at UMKC and stick with the program when I was deciding whether to leave or stick it out.

4133

@AdVitam At my interview day, the last one, the lady on stage explicitly said that the USMLE Step 1 scores were at or above the national average. She also stated the national average was in the 90s, because someone asked this. It surprises me that at your interview day they would specifically demote the school publicly by saying that the board scores were below par.

4134

@AdVitam Also, I have been offered spots at other BA/BS/MD Programs and I would still choose UMKC regardless. I am a hard worker and believe that if there are other students out there who can go through the program and end up on top, then why can’t I? I like the two years less, no MCAT, docent system thing. I even called the office and they said I could even double major if I wanted to! I believe and have talked to students to find out that there is plenty of flexible is this program, but obviously not a lot since it’s two years…, to do other things. I am really involved in school and community service; I am also interested in studying abroad. I was delighted to hear the options available for students to take international rotations, use personal days to attend conferences, and open non-profit clinics and become a part of the city. So, I personally feel like the program would be a great fit for me, but then again I am someone who is really good at adapting to new environments though. I hope that you continue to consider the program. Don’t be discouraged by low board scores because you could always get private classes or even host study sessions with students from the other local med schools. I have several friends who went through the program with the same concerns and offered great advice, you just have to find the right people to ask to lead you along the way!

4135

@UMKCRoosMD and @Roentgen Do the students participate in one or two grad ceremonies for BA and MD, or just both? Would you say students from the program graduate with more debt than average med students? If I am going to be taking on a lot of debt to attend the program should I be concerned early on about which residency positions I should be applying to? Also, just a general question, how many years would you say it takes most med students to pay off their educational debt, 5 years, 10 years, lifetime?

4136

Hey @AdVitam, no, I don’t know if they revealed the average USMLE Step 1 score from UMKC either. I was in the same boat, really nervous on interview day, and concentrating fully on my performance on the MMI. I figured that if I do get an acceptance, I could then ask as many questions as I needed to the right people, as well as asking current students and former alumni. You can ask as many questions, maybe go back for a second look with your parents when all the jitters are gone, bc they can’t take away your acceptance then, or ask/email students who are there now or who have graduated.

I agree with you - if other BS/MD programs gave me an offer, I would pick several of them over UMKC but I think it also has to do with the fact that I’d be paying out-of-state tuition. Between Siena/Albany vs. UMKC only, I would probably only choose UMKC in that instance bc the difference between schools is so negligible.

Just venting here but I think it is ridiculous that as a freshman in college, UMKC med students have to pay the School of Medicine rate. It makes no sense why I have to pay that rate for classes like General Chemistry, General Biology, Sociology, Psychology, English, etc. when every other UMKC freshmen in the same classes as me pays half the rate. At least it would be more fair to charge that rate only for the Medical Terminology, Learning Basic Medical Science, and Fundamentals of Medical Practice, Human Biochemistry 1 - Medical, and Human Structure Function classes in the first 2 years.

I’m speaking about this thru being someone who is out-of-state, but if UMKC was my only acceptance I would have to look at the entire cost difference. I got some great deals in financial aid (grants and scholarships) at places where I’m only doing the undergrad. I think if you got like a full merit scholarship at an undergrad only, that would be a game changer. Someone had told me that if you’re out-of-state, the UMKC 6 year program doesn’t put you ahead financially. I definitely believe that.

4137

In case anyone was interested, I got this from the UMKC Cashier’s website on their fee charts: http://www.umkc.edu/finadmin/cashiers/ (Click on Tuition and Fee Rates). Their fee calculator is being updated which does it faster, but you can look at the charts for now.

These are the educational fees per credit hour. The rest are miscellaneous fees like University Center fee, athletic fee, student activity fee, fees for the Swinney Gym.

This is by semester for Fall 2015/Spring 2016.

Undergraduate:
-In-state: $272.30/hr
-Out-of-state: $711.00/hr
-Midwest Missouri Exchange: $408.45/hr (Illinois, Indiana, Kansas, Nebraska, Michigan, Minnesota, North Dakota or Wisconsin)
-Metro Rate: you pay in-state tuition rate (Kansas Residents - Residents of Atchison, Douglas, Franklin, Jackson, Jefferson, Johnson, Leavenworth, Miami, Osage, Shawnee and Wyandotte counties)

Medicine (Years 1-2):
-In-state: $595.13/hr
-Out-of-state: $1,190.24/hr
-Regional: $892.69/hr (Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska or Oklahoma)

Medicine (Years 3–6):
All students are assessed a flat rate of 18 credit hours on all fees except Information Technology.

-In-state: $11,828.90
-Regional: $17,377.60
-Out-of-state: $22,924.50

4138

@UMKCRoosMD and @Roentgen, Do B.A/M.D. students apply for Honors College? Or do they get to be in honors college automatically. Not sure if this was meant for undergraduate students only. Do you know?

Also, can I still take MCAT and possibly leave after getting the B.A. after 4th year?

At my interview day, the lady said their USMLE Step 1 scores are above nation average too. She also mentioned that in Step 2, UMKC students tend to do better. 30% of students go Primary Care, 30% go Internal Medicine and rest for everything else.

Looking at 2014 matches, they seem to be pretty good. Am I missing something here ? My biggest worry has been residency matching. With not good matching, what would I do with MD?

4139

@pleasant Lol, we must have been there on the same day.

4140

@PinkPrincess2014 I absolutely agree with you. I have a full ride to my state school which definitely makes for a tough choice ( no debt and maybe med school vs. debt and six year med school) as you said UMKC does not put you ahead financially and with the change in healthcare systematics, we can’t really be sure if we can afford over 300k in debt. I, too, also ponder why students are charged the med school rate during the first two years, the program rate is outrageous especially for a public, not-prestigious medical school…