@HopingMD @Roentgen Yes, I love the long posts as well! They are super helpful. I, too, am also worried about the cost. I have been offered a full-ride to my state school, which has a decently ranked medical school. They would also pay for me to study abroad and give me a stipend. I know that I would absolutely love it there, but two years, no MCAT, and a 2.8 GPA requirement are pretty hard to beat. Right now my big question is two years and med school or no debt and maybe med school.
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To be fair to UMKC, interview days are much different than summer information tours. Those tours probably don’t have actual UMKC medical students doing them, and your exposure to the inner workings is going to be very minimal at that point, since the goal is to give just a glimpse into the overall structure of the program and give baseline information, because they don’t even know if you’ll be applying to the program or not. It’s more for student recruitment and PR purposes. A lot of things can go wrong on interview day not just for the school, but for applicants also. I know bc as students we talked about how nervous we were, and things going wrong last minute on interview day, etc. which we all laugh about later. So I wouldn’t take any interview day flubs too seriously. Those things can happen anywhere.
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Realize that no medical school is perfect. There are always improvements being made to curricula all the time. Different med schools have different mission statements when it comes to medicine – primary care, specialty care, biomedical research, etc. That being said, it’s always good to find out what the weaknesses of a medical school are, and see why that is the case, and if you’re ok with or can compromise on that. Have things improved at UMKC? Sure. All medical schools improve in different areas over the years. The real question is in what areas, how much, and whether it makes any difference. I am surprised they were very honest about Step 1 scores, but I’m sure more and more people are asking these days and people know former UMKC alumni so people are asking better questions. UMKC will always have a full class of students willing to go, so it’s in their best interest to have people who know more about the school and are ok with going there.
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You are correct, once you’re in the program, you are effectively in, but keep in mind other things. In this program, the premed route is just being largely replaced by the medical school route, so instead of worrying about studying for the MCAT, you’re worrying about taking Step 1 which can have an affect on the choice of specialties available to you. The Step exam will make the MCAT look like child’s play in comparison. It was kind of a weird feeling to be taking USMLE Step 1 as a 22 year old, when all of my friends were finishing their last semester of college and maybe just starting med school that upcoming fall. A lot of the premed classes in the program are skipped and you jump head first into med school classes early on starting in Fall Year 2 with Biochemistry, but you still have to maintain an overall science GPA in order to continue in the program. Some people felt uncomfortable skipping something like Physics or Bio. I don’t think anyone cared about not having to take 2 semesters of Organic.
The HUGE assumption made early on in this program is that you can only see yourself as being a physician, and no other possible occupation, and that you’ve ruled out all other occupations you’d be just as happy in, whether in healthcare - Nurse Practitioner or Physician Assistant (both of which can work in specialties), Nurse, Pharmacist, General Dentist (or some type of Dental specialist), Optometrist, Physical Therapist, Clinical Psychologist, CRNA or AA, etc. or not in healthcare - Business, Engineering, Law, Education, etc. In all honesty, for most graduating HS seniors, that’s usually not the case since it would involve a lot of shadowing and speaking with people in the profession to rule things out.
In college, you can shadow different physicians and in hospitals during school and in the summers, to see if you can deal with the lifestyle of a physician (like being on call throughout your career), sacrifices, and things that doctors see on a daily basis. Most high schoolers don’t have the type of shadowing opportunities and hours that many traditional premeds do. I wouldn’t go into the 6 year program at UMKC, with the mentality of this is the easiest way to become a doctor. One set of problems is just replaced with another. Medical school will be tough regardless of where you go, especially if you’re going for a competitive specialty.
- I wouldn’t necessarily do a DO program right after high school either. You can google information on the MD vs. DO debate that has probably gone on for decades, but if your goal is to match into a competitive specialty, then going the allopathic route is the best, since they have the most residency spots in those specialties. I’m not saying that it is impossible, but if you look at DO medical schools their match lists tend to be different not only in specialties overall but the hospital institution they match at, which can then affect the ability to get subspecialty fellowships. As I mentioned, yes, a majority of UMKC’s list will be in Internal Medicine/Pediatrics, etc. but most of those people will not stay as primary care physicians. They will most likely apply for fellowships and become specialists in an area of interest. If you see here from last year, http://med.umkc.edu/sa/match-2013/, not one person went into Family Medicine. All the ones who matched into IM or Peds will likely not practice primary care. Realize also each medical school class is different, so if there is a specialty missing one off year, it may have been that no one was interested in that field that year. Most high schoolers and premeds have difficulty interpreting match lists, bc they don’t see all the behind the scenes happenings by med students in deciding, behind that list.
Most people I know who went to a DO medical school, did so after not getting any allopathic MD acceptances. In general (not a rule), the average GPA and MCAT score for DO schools tends to be much lower than for MD schools, although DO schools are catching up bc overall more and more people are going for medical school. This is due to several factors but the economy also has a huge role to play in this. If you’re going for a DO school, it should be after you’ve tried your best in undergrad, not immediately after high school when you don’t have enough of a track record and just bc you’re scared, especially with your stellar standardized test scores.
@HopingMD - Part II
- I agree out-of-state tuition at UMKC absolutely sucks. You can compare tuitions at all medical schools on an Excel spreadsheet for download here from the AAMC website: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/. They didn’t even have regional tuition as an option until 2007, when it was only in-state (Missouri) and out-of-state (everywhere else) before. I would find out from the UMKC Cashier’s office what you would have to do to get in-state tuition and also apply to every private scholarship you can get your hands on. I think UMKC has some scholarships now for med students although very minimal: http://med.umkc.edu/sa/finance/som_scholarships/
There are also different loan repayment type programs, NHSC program, Military HPSP programs, etc. In all honesty, most people who are out-of-state in this program are people in families who can easily afford to pay med school tuition in cash. I’ll leave it there to be nice. lol. @UMKCRoosMD, maybe you can talk more about this as well?
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I think the clinical exposure early on helps to keep up the motivation of why you’re in the program as well as serve as an introduction to different areas of clinical medicine. It can get really boring and repetitive studying for classes, so Docent is kind of a good break from those classes and taking class exams. That being said, because you have a science GPA to maintain, sometimes your Pass/Fail classes like Docent in the first 2 years, get shoved down in studying priority. I think most people would say Year 1-2 Docent is glorified shadowing although this can highly vary with the Docent you are assigned to. I don’t think it contributes a huge difference overall.
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The problem with your question is that there are way too many variables that impact that question of whether or not to go to UMKC. One variable is your overall performance in medical school (grades, board scores, research) - that will impact whether by Year 6 certain specialties are available to you in the first place.
For primary care, another variable is healthcare reform also known as “Obamacare”, where more and more primary care will be done by PAs and NPs (although they can and do work in specialties all the time). That doesn’t mean physicians in primary care will be wiped out completely, but there has always been a shortage of physicians going into primary care - bc of reimbursement (Which is changing now from fee-for-service reimbursement to outcomes-based reimbursement), salary (which will change), and overall interest by US med students. It’s why a lot of public state medical schools encourage or push their students to pursue primary care, although in the end they can’t force you into it. If you’re interested in a competitive specialty, then it depends what specialty (see my response to @ang331 - re: the specialties he mentioned).
A lot of people think Physicians control all of healthcare, and that’s not really true, especially if you work for a hospital. Also, many doctors don’t work alone like they did decades ago, and work in teams with other professions - nurses, etc. Private practice in medicine is slowly disappearing and speeding up with Obamacare, and more and more doctors are giving up autonomy in private practice to work for hospital systems. That’s something you need to be aware of as a possibility for you.
TL;DR there are way too many factors that are up in the air in terms of absolutes since one’s own values vary from person to person.
- You can see how your degree plan would look like with the Liberal Arts degree here:
https://www.umkc.edu/majormaps/maps/2014-2015/SOM_BLA_MD_2014_2015.pdf. It says on it, “-This sample plan assumes a student has completed two years of the same foreign language in high school.”, so you should be ok. Greek is offered as a Foreign Language at UMKC.
@hopingMD, If we’re comparing UMKC’s med school to either of those 2 schools, both U Kansas and U of Missouri are better medical schools which isn’t surprising as they also are much better funded by the state. They have better research and they have residencies in some of the specialties that aren’t available at UMKC. If those were my options, assuming the cost differential isn’t huge, I would naturally go with KU or U of Missouri-Columbia.
Missouri used to have a Conley Scholars BS/MD program which they stopped: http://www.columbiatribune.com/news/education/med-school-to-stop-pre-admission-plan/article_438ff87d-7468-51a8-a956-c749d3394b12.html, although they still have a Bryant Scholars Program for Missourians from rural areas: http://medicine.missouri.edu/ahec/pre-admissions-selection.html
@ang331, just so that it’s clear, the 2.8 GPA is an overall science GPA, not a cumulative GPA. That science GPA includes all your science coursework from undergrad (Which isn’t many classes) and all of your medical school level science courses together: Biochem, Human Structure Function, Micro, Neurosci, Pathology, Pharmacology: http://med.umkc.edu/curriculum/info/#scienceGPA
I think it depends on the state medical school in question (you can private message me if you want). Would you qualify as regional or out-of-state at UMKC? Cost is one factor to keep in mind esp. since college costs have really gotten out of control.
@Roentgen I messaged you the school, and I would be considered regional. What is the cumulative GPA required? In your own opinion, do you think Obamacare will affect physicians in specialties, if at all, and how severely?
@ang331, according to this, http://med.umkc.edu/docs/coe/COE-Policy-Manual.pdf, it is 2.8 for those who matriculated in 2011 and later. It used to be 2.7 before that. By the end, most of your GPA will be composed of med school science hours anyways, so it’s pretty irrelevant. I’ve never known anyone have problems from the program bc they failed to maintain the overall cumulative GPA. It’s almost always due to science GPA.
@ang331, Yes, Obamacare will definitely affect physicians in all specialties since the goal is to lower overall healthcare costs mainly by decreasing the amount healthcare services are reimbursed. We don’t know what exactly the severity of those consequences, since the cost-cutting part hasn’t been fully implemented, but one thing for sure is that the current reimbursement system of “fee-for-service” will be largely be gone by the time you start practicing.
@Roentgen I hate to sound money-hungry, but do you think that this will really impact the salary of physicians that a majority of people are worried about? Like won’t it still be in upwards of 100k? Also, what are you feeling personally as a physician (I think I learned this from other posts) in regards to this change? Would you say there is anyway to counteract with or is there no turning back? Lastly, how and why should I be concerned as a future physician, if I just truly love healthcare and medicine, and I couldn’t see myself anywhere else?
@Roentgen - Thank you, you get to the point and you are very helpful. I agree about DO, it attracts lower GPA/MCAT scoring applicants; however, However, I am very interested in DO optho, their procedures show incredible reductions in ocular pressure. I have a dream of giving medical care to the poor in less developed countries one month a year, and helping save peoples’ sight when they have no other care is a goal of mine. But, I would have to get into optho, a very BIG if. I do want to treat more than symptoms, I am also interested in their philosophy, even though there is a stigma associated with being a DO, but as long as I can heal people, I do not care about being looked down upon MDs or graduates of fancy schools if I end up going to UMKC. I want to cure, I want to find the cause of the problem and I want to really cure my patients. Money is not a goal, although I will need a lot to pay off my UMKC loans if they accept me, lol. I am just a crazy high school kid who wants to heal people and make them feel better on-going instead of for just a week. I want to not over stack my day with appointments, I want to really know my patients as people. And if someone is sick or had a procedure, I would like to take the time and stop by at their house on my way home, just to make sure he or she is ok. I do not want to be in a big medical practice, heck if I wanted to be in a big partnership, I would go to law school. That just does not interest me; healing is what makes me feel good, it is the motor that drives me.
Residency and match - @Roentgen please help me. I am just a high school senior, I never went to college or med school, and while I know more about the match, etc than many high school students, I could use your help please. Assume to keep office costs down, I decide I want to be a psychiatrist. There is a shortage or them in CA, and all they need is a chair, a couch and a box of tissues. Or assume I want to be a surgeon. What do I really have to focus on in order to match? How can I make sure I build up a good match file from day one at UMKC? What happens if I do not match? Can I apply for several specialties, for example gyn, surgery, internal med, and psychiatry, so that I can make sure that I match somewhere? Is emergency med the best residency in order to make sure you can get a job - since you can work in clinics or hospitals all around the state?
Thanks in advance @Roentgen
@ng331, I don’t think you sound “money-hungry” at all. It’s fantasy thinking to think that government policy won’t affect at all how medicine is practiced. There are tons of easy to read articles that discuss this. The way medicine has changed from the 1960s to now has been tremendous. Fee-for-service reimbursement alone has made certain specialties very competitive which weren’t competitive decades before. I don’t think salaries for physicians will ever reach 100k, bc it would probably would not be financially feasible with loans and interest being what they are. I also think too many times premed students commit to medicine without knowing what exactly they are committing to which isn’t surprising when you consider many of them are relatively sheltered and have been in school their entire life without holding a real job. That’s not a putdown of premeds, but more a comment on how insulated from reality people can be.
More than salary, you have to realize the time investment. 4 years of college (or effectively 2 in the case of UMKC) + 4 years of medical school + 3-7 years of residency depending on specialty + 1-3 years of fellowship if you decide to do one. Yes, physicians will still be making more than 100k but realize you’ll probably have loans with accruing interest not to mention years invested in which it is much more difficult to turn back and do something else. You’ll also be older and have much different priorities and things you want to accomplish.
Also, there is a cap on the number of residency positions currently, which has been in place since 1997, and we’re effectively reaching that mark very closely in terms of the number of medical graduates that come out every year. Eventually we will get to the point where there aren’t enough residency positions for everyone, unless the government funds more which at least right now, the government is reluctant to spend even more money. That’s different from say NP or PA where a residency is not required to practice, unlike physicians. Not trying to scare you, but it is one of the realities. That’s why NP/PA is attractive for many bc of the much smaller education commitment overall and costs.
To answer your why you should be concerned ?, No matter how much you like science and medicine, eventually we all have to pay our bills and live as adults. Hospitals know this first hand when they either get reimbursed nothing, or such a small amount they have to make up the cost somewhere else. Same for your loans, and when you start making a (very small) paycheck in residency, maybe want to get married, have children, paying your loans, etc. your finances will guide your decisions. There’s a reason that medicine is considered a “calling” bc there is a lot of sacrifice and delayed gratification that many in the general public don’t see. If you truly can’t imagine doing anything else, then being a physician is for you. If you don’t have that experience to be sure if you can’t imagine doing anything else, then get that experience so that you do know for sure. If you can see yourself as being completely happy doing anything else, then you’re better off pursuing that.
Right now, I don’t know how I feel, bc Obamacare hasn’t been fully implemented yet and not like I have an option to turn back no anyways (lol). No one likes to hear that their salary is going down for the same or more work, in any career. Realistically, I dont’ think there is anything to counteract the tide by physicians for now. As physicians, we can maybe trim and change at the edges but not overall.
Just as an aside, the way DOs and MDs practice isn’t that much different in reality. We had many DO residents at UMKC. I knew a few DOs from KCUMB (the D.O. school) in the same city. For Ophthalmology, the way it is practiced by DOs is the same as Ophthalmology practiced by MDs. They do the same procedures which they learn in residency. Right now DO Ophtho has 14 residency programs, MD Optho has 131 residency programs. You’re better off going the MD route if you want to go into Ophtho since it is a competitive specialty. Just be aware of the possibility that you may also never match into Ophtho, for whatever reason. So be prepared to have another specialty in mind that you would be happy practicing in.
As far as the match, by the time you reach your last year you will know which specialties you are still competitive for. Now is way too early to jump around hypotheticals. Trust me. Very few people start and end med school with only one specialty in mind and sticking with that thru out.
Don’t pick a specialty based on what you think it is, before you’ve rotated in it. I also wouldn’t choose one based on perceived salary bc those things could also just as easily change since reimbursement changes. Also, in residency, you also risk hating every living moment. Different specialties have different overall overhead based not just on specialty but also if they are in solo practice, a multispecialty group practice, or a hospital. You can apply for a specialty and also apply for 1 backup specialty if you want to (I wouldn’t say it out loud obviously). You essentially build up an application during medical school. Every specialty has positives and negatives. No specialty is all positives or all negatives. So right now, I would NOT look at med school as being the conduit to only one specialty since that’s not the goal of medical school.
@Roentgen WOW, that was really thought-provoking. I am truly grateful for your advice for me and to others reading this thread. I know for a fact that this advice that I couldn’t have gotten from anywhere because I have no close to me in the place to experience this. Thank you!
@ang331, no prob! Very kind of you to say. Yeah, it’s really difficult for the general public not in medicine to understand some of the difficulties of the journey it takes to become a physician and in clinical practice, esp. when the healthcare environment is always changing (or at least feels like it is).
Just to be clear, right now, I’m happy with where I am, but I also realize things could be or could have been a lot different. There are tons of stable good professions in healthcare and not in healthcare that also make relatively good salaries. They also have negatives and positives just like physicians do - lifestyle, hours worked, salary, educational costs, etc. Physician isn’t the “hitting the jackpot” specialty like it used to be several decades ago. I think most physicians would agree that least in the modern era (1990s and onward) with managed care, Medicare, Medicaid, etc., the “golden age” of medicine has been over for physicians, in terms of the best combination of reimbursement, autonomy, salary, etc.
Just goes to show, that you should evaluate a profession from all sides and not just the side you may initially be starting from. Knowledge really is power.
@HopingMD, is it just me or is it really weird to blame low USMLE Step 1 scores on the students themselves for not taking the MCAT, when students come to the program specifically so they don’t have to take the MCAT? It’s not like they could take that standardized exam bc they don’t have the necessary classes to be able to take it, even if they wanted to.
Chem BA: http://www.umkc.edu/majormaps/maps/2014-2015/SOM_BA_MD_Chem_2014_2015.pdf
Bio BA: http://www.umkc.edu/majormaps/maps/2014-2015/SOM_BA_MD_Bio_2014_2015.pdf
Questions for either @Roentgen or @UMKCRoosMD:
One of the things I was reading on this thread from a link, was a statistic where 20.6% of people leave the BA/MD program in the first 2 years, and 4.8% leave in the last 4 years, without getting the MD. What is the extension rate or is that the 20.6%? Also what are the reasons people leave or extend in the program and is there a real stigma associated with extending? Does that affect your residency prospects greatly? I know in programs like Penn State/Jefferson when it was a 6 year, you could choose at the beginning if you wanted to do 6 or 7 years, same with NEOMED, you could choose whether to do 6 or 7.
What is the medical school class like (Demographics, Income, Race distribution, etc.)? Are most of the class BA/MD students? Seems like UMKC is the only one where nearly everyone there is after high school, which makes me think that maybe it might not be too bad, bc faculty and the med school know they are dealing with students coming in at 18 and graduating at 24.
Also do you think the college experience in the first 2 years is similar to those who go to a normal undergrad or those in 8 year BS/MD programs?
@PinkPrincess2014,
Yes, I think it is weird, very weird. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, it was be the Assistant Dean of Admissions, and that not only scares me, it troubles me! First, the administration should see it is a problem and solve it, rather than make excuses, and second, it is a bullshit and lame excuse that she contradicted. So yes it is “weird” at the very least.
But I have come to some conclusions, and perhaps they are “weird” but I keep getting the same information from different sources:
- UMKC is the bottom, the lowest MD program.
- UMKC students (or the school, word it how you want) have a crappy reputation.
- If you go to UMKC, unless you are a superstar would also aces the boards and grades and publishes, then you will most likely only be able to get a primary care residency. (I understand that id I get an internal med residency, that perhaps I can get a fellowship for cardeo, etc; but still, UMKC grads are most probably stuck with primary care.
- All of UMKC's clinical experience and internal med exposure should give you great internal med residency - BUT to show exactly how poor UMKC's reputation is (remember, conclusion #1 above is that it is the most bottom, lowest MD program and # 2 is that its students have a poor reputation) even Internal Med residencies at great hospitals/competitive hospitals do NOT accept UMKC students, so that even UMKC's expertise results in you getting a less competitive residency.
- UMKC has few "home" specialty residencies, so again you are limited
- UMKC's residencies and Truman hospital have a poor reputation, in fact many of their residencies are filled by DOs and foreign medical students because the US trained MDs seem to want to avoid UMKC is general.
- I may be wrong, but to me, UMKC is so low and my residency match is so limited, that I believe that UMKC's standing is about equal to a osteopathic medical school. I know MDs match better, but I spoke today with a mentor who went to U of Penn undergrad and then full ride to U of Iowa, and he said that if the board scores areas low as we have been told, and the reputation so low (he has no idea of their reputation with residency directors) then to him a good board score whether COMLEX or USMLE from a school with a good reputation would be a much better option. I know this is heresey for the MD community, but it does seem that UMKC will give me basically nothing more than what I would get from an osteopathic school, and the osteopathic approach is extremely inexpensive with the scholarships they offer compared to the lack of $$$ from UMKC.
So what I am asking myself is: Why do I want to go to the lowest reputation medical school and be faced with limited opportunities for “choice”/competitive residencies and “choice”/competitive hospitals and get low board scores, all for an incredible high price? And then I ask: So what am I doing waiting for a decision, why not tell UMKC that I am not interested? Well, first, I have thought UMKC was the greatest med school for years - since 4th grade. It is hard to change my mind so suddenly. Further, what if all other med schools turn me down, maybe I would say no to the DO school and want UMKC as an option. That is a dumb reason, but then perhaps it is ok to me dumb on matters like this. I also was sold on UMKC this summer, and this is a 180 degree change for me, so I am processing it, still seeking answers. Finally, I am a competitive kid, and I never just walk away. With so few days left, there is no way I would not want to see if I got accepted, even if I decided against UMKC.
Being a doctor is great, it is my goal; as it is for everyone who interviewed. And accepting UMKC if they are the last and only resort may be ok, but still is it the best or even a good choice? If no accelerate program accepts a person except UMKC, then is accepting UMKC a good idea? Or should that person do traditional pre-med and compete and get into a decent med school? I do not know! But, I do know UMKC results in low board scores and has both poor residency reputation and limited access to competitive residencies, even in internal medicine.
@PinkPrincess2014, my answers are below:
So let’s define 2 words. Attrition means people who drop out of the program completely. These are the ones who leave the program without receiving their MD degree. Some of them leave UMKC entirely and finish getting a Bachelor’s degree somewhere else. Others stay at UMKC and complete their Bachelor’s. This is usually dependent on when that person leaves or is dismissed from the program.
In the UMKC BA/MD program, extending/extension means people originally enrolled in the 6 year BA/MD program prolong it to either 7 or 8 years for a variety of reasons. I think they now call it the “Alternate Program”. Whatever, they always change the name. lol. There are people who extend initially, and later leave the program altogether and those that extend initially, who make it through and graduate with their Bachelor’s and MD degree.
I think you got your statistics here from 2007: http://journals.lww.com/academicmedicine/pages/articleviewer.aspx?year=2007&issue=04000&article=00010&type=abstract
So in that article, from 1970-2005, for students who entered at Year 1 after high school, 20.6% left the program completely without receiving the MD. After the start of Year 3, only 4.8% left the program completely without receiving the MD.
I don’t think they’ve ever published statistics on the number of people who actually complete the program in 6 years. I would go by this from 2009: https://www.umkc.edu/provost/student-retention/retreat/som.ppt
Here are the reasons I think people extend in the program:
- academic trouble: getting below the required 2.8 science GPA, failing or dropping a class that is required in order to promote to the next semester (i.e. Organic → Biochem; Biochem → HSF, or somewhere in the Structure Function series) which then automatically extends you in Year 1/2
- the pace of the program can be exhausting with no large time off and it finally catches up with them
- stresses: financial burden, personal/family issues
- taking a year off to complete a year of research
As far as reasons I think people leave the program altogether:
- academic trouble: course failure, inability to keep up science GPA, not passing boards
- the pace of the program
- stresses: financial burden, personal/family issues
- people realize they’d be perfectly happy doing a career not in healthcare and realize they may have initially pursued medical school for bad reasons
- some people want to be in healthcare but not necessarily sacrifice to the point of becoming a physician and thus choose an alternative career in healthcare
I don’t know anyone who voluntarily chooses to extend unless it’s for a year of research which is usually done after Year 5. It’s almost always bc of a difficulty of some sort.
I don’t think it’s admitted out loud, but I do think there is some stigma associated with students who extend. No one in the real world cares, since most med students are traditional who do it in 8 years, but when your entire world is UMKC medical students, it’s hard to see that. It can be difficult for some people bc you are no longer in your original class, have to make new friends with people in your new class. Maybe some embarassment as well. In terms of residencies, I think it depends. I’ve known people who extended who got into good residencies. I even knew one alum who extended and got into Ortho. So just bc you extend it definitely isn’t close to being the end of the world which some may initially think.
Most of your class will be BA/MD students. The only time traditional students (who have completed their Bachelor’s, taken the MCAT, etc.) enroll is to make up for Years 1-2 attrition to bring the class back up to the original number. They now enter in the second semester of Year 2 bc of Human Structure Function.
This can be good or bad depending on how you look at it. It can be hard to get to know other people in other majors and fields. It’s good in that you have a cohesive group of people that you will get to know for 6 years. Bad in that any people you don’t like will be with you that long, although you get to meet many new people in your Docent group on Hospital Hill when you start Year 3.
Demographics - I would say most in-staters are from the KC and St. Louis (and its suburbs) areas. Much of those from St. Louis come from very well to do schools although there are definitely public ones: Marquette, St. Charles, Ladue Horton, MICDS, Villa Duchesne, Parkway, etc. Kansas City - Blue Springs, Pembroke, Raytown, Lee’s Summit, Barstow, Liberty, St. Pius, etc.
Other cities/towns in Missouri where people come from: Springfield, Branson, Liberty, Joplin, some very rural towns.
Outside of Missouri: ones that I knew were from states like California (many come from here because unlike most states I’ve heard it can be difficult for California residents to get into medical school in their home state), Texas, Florida, Indiana, Illinois, Oklahoma, Kansas.
Income - this can vary, but especially in the regional and out-of-state groups, I would say that families usually come from very affluent/rich backgrounds, many of them physician families, many of them Asian.
Race - Huge percentage Asian. You cited an article that said the percentage of Asians in the program is double that of most American medical schools, 40% - definitely true. A lot of people from Asian families see UMKC’s BA/MD program as a straight, direct shot – right after high school, save 2 years, no MCAT, straight to residency, especially since many European/Asian med schools are 6 years in length. Those who are black tend to veer more toward African, although there are some of African-American descent. Almost negligible Hispanic, Native American, etc.
Although it may seem like they know what they’re doing in turning 18 year olds into doctors by 24 years, it’s really much more complicated than that. Don’t go with the assumption that you’ll be helped completely along any differently. The expectations are higher of students and can sometimes be unrealistic of what is asked of high school students entering a BA/MD program.
I think your college experience at UMKC in the BA/MD program will be different than you would have with someone who does a normal undergrad or someone who does 4 years of college in an 8 year BS/MD. Part of the reason it’s difficult to have a similar life to college students is that you’re taking a higher number of credit hours every semester, more credit hours early on at the medical school level (Biochemistry and Human Structure Function). It really does take effort to not clique off with just people in your med school class and go out, make friends, and stay friends with people who are not in the medical program. Your med school class will go thru a lot of things together so it’s natural to hang out with them more whether in frats/sororities, service organizations, car rides to Year 1-2 Docent, studying for classes, etc.
UMKC is also mainly a public commuter university. It just won’t be a school like UMass-Amherst, UC-Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan, Rice, UVa, University of Texas at Austin, etc. in a lot of ways. Different people define the normal college experience differently so what is normal for one person won’t be normal for someone else.
You can view and download the match lists from 2003-2014 that @UMKCRoosMD posted up:
http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/17808190/#Comment_17808190
You can see UMKC’s posted match list for 2013 here: http://med.umkc.edu/sa/match-2013/
You can see UMKC’s posted match list for 2014 here: http://med.umkc.edu/sa/match-day-2014/
The match list for 2015 will be coming this month since Match Day is on March 20, 2015.
- I wouldn't say UMKC is the bottom most medical school in the nation. There are definitely worse allopathic medical schools than UMKC that I know of for sure - you can see on some other websites what those schools are. UMKC chooses not to be ranked by US World News & Report in their med school list - for reasons I honestly do not know. If we're splitting medical schools into a top-tier, middle-tier, and bottom-tier, then UMKC definitely fits into the bottom tier. It's definitely not like Wash U in St. Louis (#6 in Research, #40 in Primary Care), which is a top tier school, and it's not like University of Missouri-Columbia (#75 in Research, #29 in Primary Care), which would probably fall into middle tier.
- In terms of reputation -- yes, UMKC is not a top-tier/middle-tier medical school. Most of the faculty are full-time clinicians although there are some who also do participate in research in specific areas. UMKC is not a huge recipient of NIH research funds overall and ranks pretty low in terms of the state willing to subsidize much of the medical school's costs (compare this to KU which is very close by): http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2006/02/27/story6.html?page=all (2006)
- I don't think you have to ace boards, grades, and have publications or be relegated to primary care. It's not usually that simple when it comes to the residency match. See the match lists above for more information. Your ability to get a subspecialty fellowship will be based on your performance in your residency, not your performance in medical school. Just to be clear - in terms of subspecializing, UMKC graduates are not necessarily "stuck" in primary care. Very few physicians coming out even practice outpatient primary care medicine nowadays bc of economics and lifestyle. Anyone who starts in primary care usually switches to what is called hospitalist medicine, and they become a hospitalist. A lot of UMKC students don't wish to stay at UMKC's Internal Medicine program for a variety of reasons. I also think it stems from wanting a fresh start at a new program with new (to you) faculty, having already lived in KC for 6 years and wanting a change, wanting to go back to your home state, etc. Also, if you've done average to pretty well in medical school, most people will always want to see if they can get something better and new.
- You are correct - most students going for Internal Medicine from UMKC even with their years of clinic and DoRo experience, will probably not be matching at top-tier programs in Internal Medicine: Hopkins (Osler program), UCSF, Mass General, Brigham and Women's, etc. A major reason for this is because UMKC is just not a top tier medical school.
Those institutions are very competitive to get into and they tend to recruit easily from top-tier medical schools. The ones from UMKC that have have gotten in, usually have taken a year off for research. Some have done it through Doris Duke, HHMI-NIH Research Scholars Program, or on their own. Also, getting interviews/matching at places can be very geographically dependent. Programs in the midwest, recruit best in the midwest, programs on the West Coast recruit best on the West, Northeast, and South tend to recruit best from their respective areas. The top students at UMKC going for Internal Medicine have matched at places like Mayo, Duke, Wash U, UCLA, Emory, etc.
Remember, UMKC is a public state medical school. Like most public medical schools, there will be a huge bias with respect to which places people want to go for residency and which specialties people will want to pursue. For example, we had people from rural areas in Missouri whose dream was to be a Family Medicine physician or Pediatrician and they did just that. Or people from St. Louis who wanted to go back. The way schools recruit affects where people want to go for residency and which specialties people want to go into. We had people in Pediatrics who loved their experience at Children’s Mercy Hospital and stayed in Missouri for Peds residency when they could have gone other places. By the time you get to your last year, a lot of factors will affect how your rank programs to match.
Here are all the UMKC residency programs and fellowships offered at UMKC currently: http://med.umkc.edu/gme/residencies-and-fellowships/
- You are correct. UMKC does not have residencies in specialties like Dermatology, Otolaryngology (ENT), Radiation Oncology, Integrated Plastic Surgery, Urology, Neurosurgery, Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, Neurology (the department was just created), Thoracic Surgery. Of course if one is not interested in those fields then that is irrelevant for them. If those are fields you are interested in, you will still have to have the grades and board scores to be eligible to apply and successfully match. Having a home residency does allow you to network and complete research during your 4 years as well as officially rotate as a home student.
- This depends on the residency. I guarantee you that if you look at the General Surgery or Orthopedic Surgery programs at UMKC - none of them are international graduates or DOs. Same for Pediatrics at Children's Mercy -- the DOs there are ones who have rotated previously and loved it and stayed. Same for Radiology. Same for Emergency Medicine. Realize also that most people don't necessarily think of moving to Kansas City for residency training. Many young people want to live in more happening places which end up being more competitive: Boston, NYC, LA, Chicago, and other major cities in other states. Or if prestige is a concern, people are willing to move to a place like Baltimore for the chance to train at Hopkins. Residency applicants take a lot of things into consideration when deciding places to interview -- especially if they are interested in having a family, getting married, etc. and finally starting to build a life after putting it off for so long with school.
Internal Medicine you rotate at TMC or St. Luke’s (more affluent/rich patients here) with your group, Surgery can be done at TMC or St. Luke’s, Family Medicine is done at TMC-Lakewood (I actually liked this hospital), Pediatrics is done at Children’s Mercy Hospital (loved this hospital!), Psychiatry is done at the Center for Behavioral Health which is relatively newly built and looks very nice inside: http://dmh.mo.gov/cbm/history.html
- You would be wrong on this point. Based on reputation alone, an allopathic MD school will always take precedence over an osteopathic DO school. Residency directors have this bias bc in general, it is more difficult to get into allopathic medical schools vs. osteopathic medical schools based on MCAT and GPA data. It doesn't mean they won't take DO students, but the first pick of the litter, currently, are allopathic MD students. It may not be right or fair, but that's just the way it is. There are many specialty residency programs who will not even interview DOs even with the best board scores and research if they even have it. The bias, for now, is still there. Realize in terms of sheer numbers - the allopathic world just has more residency programs in those highly sought after specialty fields. Most of the residencies in the osteopathic world are in primary care.
AOA residencies (osteopathic): http://opportunities.osteopathic.org/search/search.cfm
ACGME residencies (allopathic): http://www.acgme.org/ads/Public/Programs/Search
@PinkPrincess2014,
or
@Roentgen, or anyone else, can you please post the actual USMLE Board Step 1 scores at UMKC?
I also interviewed, but I was nervous and while I remember the lady on stage saying the step 1 scores were low, I do not remember the exact number. Could someone, anyone, please post those numbers? I also am very concerned about UMKC’s program and how it will impact me if I become a student.
If there is a poll, I would vote that UMKC is my bottom choice, if one of the other accelerated programs accepts me, I would take any of them over UMKC. However, I would take UMKC if no other accelerated program accepted me. Something is better than nothing. But UMKC is my choice of last resort. Perhaps we should take a poll?