UMKC 6-year BS/MD Program

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
4161

@PinkPrincess2014

If you want the reality of medicine, I would make sure your Health care shadowing/volunteering experiences are in a hospital. If you can do it in a hospital in an academic medical center that has an attached medical school with it, that’s even better, bc you’ll see medical students and residents and see what they do. See if you are really comfortable with seeing patients who are very ill and sick, dying cancer patients, angry patients, watch a CODE BLUE being done, doctors trying their best with IV lines and tubes and patients still dying, ICU medical care, etc. If you see those type of scenarios you’re much more likely to see the reality of medicine as it is, not how you want it to be. You’ll be doing a lot of this as resident - working very long hours, with little sleep, and paid a very measly salary - $40-50 K, while all your other friends have normal lives. You’ll get a small taste of this as a Year 5.

Private practice medicine will never give you a realistic picture of what medicine is like in medical school and in residency, bc most rotations and residency usually happen in an inpatient hospital setting where people are admitted, not in an outpatient clinic. Only certain specialties are as a rule practiced largely on an outpatient basis: Allergy, Dermatology, Pain medicine (fellowship), Psychiatry, etc. I understand though it can be hard as only a high school student to get that opportunity.

You can definitely google more about this topic, but more and more specialties in medicine are being practiced in hospitals as teams, and not just teams of physicians only: http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2014/08/116856/team-based-approach-primary-care
http://www.amednews.com/article/20120319/profession/303199952/2/

You’ll have to work in a group with nurses, NPs, PAs, social workers, physical therapists, etc. and many times you will be responsible for them as well (which can be frustrating, as you’ll realize that there are lazy people in healthcare who don’t care as much as you do for patients) as well as to your patient. If you talk to older doctors, many of them practiced as individuals, which is why private practice was quite common. One of the most satisfying things about medicine, if you like working with patients, is the traditional doctor-patient relationship, where one doctor gets to know you over several years if not decades. There are news articles like this which show this is changing: http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013/09/30/227813508/a-doctors-9-predictions-about-the-obamacare-era (Definitely See #9).

Some exceptions (I think) would be: Pathology, Radiology, Ophthalmology, Dermatology, Radiation Oncology. But primary-care oriented fields are definitely practiced in teams or are switching to that model (http://www.aafp.org/practice-management/transformation/pcmh.html) - which is sad, because it’s already hard enough to get medical students to go into primary care as it is. With more and more primary care being done by PAs and NPs, it’s not realistic to think that after years of college and med school, a med student will go for something he could have done as a PA/NP.

The concept of a physician, as an individual who knows everything, working by themselves, doing all they can for the patient, with an individual patient-physician relationship is slowly disappearing in the United States. If you’re someone whose goal is to eventually work as a solo/multi-group private practice you might want to think over your decision. A lot of doctors are starting to become employees in hospitals: http://www.hschange.com/CONTENT/1230/, which is accelerated further by Obamacare.

I think it’s fine to go into medical school with ideas of what specialties you might be interested in. You also have to be flexible. I don’t think it’s a good idea to go into medical school with the goal of, “I only want to be an ophthalmologist/dermatologist” or “I only want to be a neurosurgeon” or “I’ll only be happy if I get to do x specialty”, for 2 reasons. The first is that the purpose of medical school is to teach you about more than 1 specific specialty, since even in many of those specialties, you have to do an internship that is not in those specialties. The second, at the end of 6 years, you may not even be realistically competitive for those specialties. Currently, all those specialties are very competitive in the match. The only exception to what I just said is if you want a residency in Internal Medicine, Pediatrics, or Family Medicine. If those are your goals, then you’ll be just fine in terms of getting A residency in those fields bc there are more than enough spots available.

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In case any of you guys were wondering here is UMKC’s match list for 2015:
http://med.umkc.edu/sa/match-day-2015/

Don’t look at just one list, you should look at several which @UMKCRoosMD posted up from 2003-2014. If you have any questions you can ask either one of us when it comes to interpreting match lists.

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@Roentgen Thank you for your post. When is the UMKC interview result going to be published?

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@popsys, according to the UMKC website: http://med.umkc.edu/bamd/timeline/, it should come on April 1 electronically to your email.

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Thank you, Roentgen, for sending out the match list. What does “Preliminary Medicine” mean and why these students have two matched? How long do they stay in one place?

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@Roentgen, what do you thing about this year match list? I see some got into competitive specialties.

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@efr009,

Excellent question!

So in certain specialties, you have to first do an internship year in a field other than your own, before you get to do your own specific specialty residency - these are called “advanced” specialties. Not bc they’re hard (lol) but bc you have to do an internship year in something else, before you get to ADVANCE to that specialty you want to do. It’s more a broad-based, generalized training year so to speak. Specialties that are like this are Radiology, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, Dermatology (The so-called ROAD specialties), Radiation Oncology, Neurology, Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation, and Urology – this last one requires a preliminary (general) surgery year.

Most of the time, the place you are doing your residency, doesn’t include the internship year as part of the package, so you have to interview separately for the internship year which may be in the same city or it may be in a completely different city. After that 1 year of internship, they move to where their advanced specialty is.

This internship year can be called a “preliminary” year or a “transitional” year. You can do a Preliminary year in Internal Medicine, Surgery, Pediatrics, even OB-Gyn (this last one is very very few actually) where you do all your residency year rotations in that one specific department. A transitional year is a broad based year where you rotate among different departments: Internal Medicine, Emergency Medicine, Pediatrics, Surgery, etc. you “transition” between different areas of medicine.

The specialties where there is no separate internship are in fields like: Internal Medicine, General Surgery, Pediatrics, Psychiatry, Family Medicine, Orthopedic Surgery, Neurosurgery, OB-Gyn, etc. You interview once and don’t have to find a separate intern year.

https://residency.wustl.edu/Residencies/Pages/CategoricalvsPreliminary.aspx

Hope that clears things up.

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I did not read through previosu posts… Do students get prepared and support for these competitive specialities from UMKC medical school . Or mostly students self effort to get good score in USMLE and other efforts …?

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@efr009,

I think it’s relatively consistent with previous years in terms of overall geography, the type of institutions that UMKC usually matches into. There will always be exceptions, but those are usually just that - exceptions. Maybe slightly worse (just my opinion) in specific specialties in terms of the type of residency institution (a community-based vs. university-based program) - part of that is just because the residency match process, in general, is getting tighter bc there are higher numbers of medical students graduating, but there are not enough residency positions increasing to meet the demand, so things overall are becoming much more competitive. Realize also that students choose locations for different reasons - wanting to be closer to home or family, wanting to explore a different city, 2 students matching as a couple so they have to be in the relatively same area, etc.

Part of the problem with competitive specialties is that you have no idea what exactly contributed to their matching into it: did they take a year off from medical school to go somewhere else to do research and publish? Were they at the top of their class? Were they members of AOA (the honor society in medical school)? Maybe they did an audition elective at some other place and they knocked the attending’s socks off and impressed them. Maybe they are related to a faculty member in that program or they have a connection thru a family member somehow (doesn’t happen often but yes, it does happen - this is real life, after all).

Here’s a perfect example: If you see on the match list there is one guy who matched into Orthopedic Surgery at Mass General Hospital at Harvard. However, if you Google him, you will see that he did research in Ortho throughout medical school at UMKC and on top of that took a year off to do Orthopedic research and has THIRTY-NINE(!) research publications in Orthopedic Surgery. So not surprisingly, he’s going to get into pretty good programs especially if he was top of the class, which he probably was. Very few medical students, who are already a smart bunch in general, have 39 publications, so he’s very much at the high end of the bell curve. It’s like the people who have a 2400 on their SATs - as a whole they are very small percentage-wise of the population.

The people at the very top of the medical school class or who are AOA members, are people who likely would have been successful no matter where they went - whether at UMKC or at another school. Many of them, especially those who are AOA, likely would have been smart enough to get into Ivy League schools.

So context is very key here, and it’s very hard to know the story behind each person’s match.

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@popsys, I think the answer to that question is a little complicated. I also think that it varies A LOT by specialty when it comes to support that UMKC’s med school can give their students.

For example, in a field like Radiation Oncology, UMKC won’t be able to give you any real guidance as UMKC doesn’t have a Rad Onc department or residency. But in something like Orthopedic Surgery, if you look, you’ll see about 7 people matched into Orthopedic Surgery. This isn’t really surprising as UMKC has improved a lot over the years in terms of Ortho - they now have a very active interest group (which didn’t exist or wasn’t as active before when I was there), they have actively mentoring Ortho Surg faculty, Ortho research, etc. I think also it’s because more and more students are demanding it as well.

However, if you see something like Ophthalmology or Dermatology, very few students, I think this year, 2 for Ophtho and 1 for Derm, which isn’t surprising either. UMKC Ophtho clinical MD faculty don’t do much research themselves and I’ve heard from classmates that they weren’t very huge in actively mentoring students. UMKC doesn’t even have a Derm program so some years there might be 1 or 2 and in some years none matching into Derm.

So along with Step scores, it helps to have good home school support as you mentioned. Just like med school admissions is holistic, residency application review is also holistic as well, in terms of not just one factor being the reason.

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Hello everyone,
I am currently a student at UMKC. This forum helped me out a lot when I was making my decision to come to UMKC and I wanted to return the favor and help those are still on the fence about the program.

I am a regional student. I also had gotten accepted at the SLU early admission program, UnionCollege/Albany medical school program, and had a full ride at University of Michigan.

The decision to do medicine for me, was based on the true passion for studying the science of medicine as well as taking care of patients. I got lucky in the sense that my aunt was actually an internal medicine resident when I was in high school. So she arranged for me to shadow attendings and residents in a hospital setting. That gave me an experience first hand about what it is like to be a doctor. I followed her on rounds, on call, in clinic etc, and after that I decided to pursue medicine as a career.

The decision to come to UMKC for me was based on personal reasons. I often feel that students who leave the program come to the program out of fear that med school is so competitive and if you have a chance to go here then you should take it. Or are pressured by their parents or family horror stories about med school rejection. Or that you save two years. Or there is no MCAT. Or they were unsure about medicine but didn’t want to pass up on the opportunity etc. I mean yes no MCAT, save two years, guaranteed admission into medical school are perks of being in the program but in the grand scale of things taking the MCAT and taking four extra years to figure out if you really want to pursue medicine to me is a price worth paying if you are unsure. Because as people have stated before, once you’re in the program, you really have to go out of the way to leave the program and go pursue the traditional route.
I personally had experiences in my life that forced me to mature at an earlier age and I felt that the 4 year college experience was not for me. In addition, when I interviewed at UMKC I felt that I was a good “fit” for the program personality wise. I feel like if you really want to do medicine, you honestly have the ability to succeed anywhere you go. That wasn’t the point for me. I could honestly have gone to U of M and worked hard and gotten into med school. And I feel like that’s true for all of my friends here. I don’t recall ever talking to my friends or looking back our decision to come to UMKC and us saying: thank god we didn’t have to take the MCAT, or OMG so glad I’m gonna graduate at 23 etc. I feel like most students who succeed in the program actually want to do medicine as a career and have some prior exposure to it that convinced them to apply. I might be wrong on this but I know this to be true of many of my friends, most of whom have physician parents.

As for the ability to get into competitive specialities, I will say yes UMKC does not have that many resources when it comes to helping you get into top notch specialities. If you want to go into primary care (Ob/Gyn, Internal Medicine, Psych, General Surgery, or Pediatrics) you will have no problem matching, and will actually find great resources here. The problem starts when you want to do top notch specialities, especially ones that UMKC does not have a residency program for (Dermatology, Neurosurgery, and Plastics to name a few). The problem in that scenario, especially as someone who wants to pursue a “competitive” specialty in the near future is this:
Because UMKC is not as big academically as the other top tier medical schools, it becomes harder to find research projects, nationally known faculty in your desired competitive speciality, and other resources and people to help you get into those residency programs. You can find all of those things here, you just have to work harder to find them. At a top tier institution, doing research in your field of desire is as easy as emailing someone and being added to a project. Here you just have to look harder and you have to sort be proactive and push your way into a project and find the right mentor. Once you do, things work out. This is also where doing away rotations at other schools early in your sixth year pays off as you make connections and find resources and people to advocate for you. None of these things matter immediately if you are deciding to attend UMKC or not, but its things that you should think about. I’m not saying that you won’t match into neurosurgery if you go to UMKC. We had two people match into it last year that I know personally and one this year, we had 5 people match orthopedics last year and 7 match into orthopedics this year, in the last few years, everyone who applied for ophthalmology has matched into it (4 two years ago, 2 last year, and 2 this year).

The thing you need to realize is this: UMKC is special because of the training your receive is very heavy in primary care. We have two required months of family medicine, four years of weekly internal medicine clinic, and 6 months of inpatient internal medicine. This is on top of the other required core rotations. UMKC is designed to churn out primary care physicians, and that’s what they are known for. If you want to pursue a non primary care field, going to program is not going to ruin your chances, but as with anything, no one is going to spoon feed resources to you to match into those things. You are gonna need to be more proactive about it. You are gonna need to accept that some places won’t interview you for residency simply because you coming from UMKC. With that said, applying into subspecialties is not actively discouraged at the school and you will found people that are more than willing to help you make connections and set up stuff for you to be successful. Albeit it becomes harder if UMKC does not have that department. But almost everyone that works hard, has a passion for their field, has a good personality, and is a team player matches into a solid upper tier or middle tier residency program, heck we have some people who are going into a top tier program in competitive specialities.

As with anything you apply to, you need to have a well rounded application. Coming to UMKC you are probably not going to match at the number one program in whatever speciality just because you have good scores and awesome grades. Since UMKC is not ranked because we are a six year program, and most of us are 23 when we graduate medical school there is a stigma that we need to fight. And that’s the reality. Just like they said above: the guy who matched ortho at Harvard, worked his tail off to prove himself to go into that program. Or the people who matched, derm, urology, ophthalmology, plastic surgery are all people that have awesome personalities who impressed the hell out of people at their away rotations on top of having awesome scores and research publications. You just have to make up for it somehow, and I think that’s what bothers some people but its the reality. Its not like UMKC is a bad school, but its just that we aren’t well known and we are super young so people tend to question that.

I will say this before I stop: when I decided to come to UMKC I knew that I wasn’t going to end up at Johns Hopkins, UCLA, or Mayo for residency. Its not that I’m not going to apply, its good to have dreams. But I am happy going to a solid middle tier program for residency that has excellent clinical training and is overall well rounded.

Good luck to all those that applied. You can either message me or post on here and I will check this periodically if anyone has any specific questions.

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Wow @Bluegrn6, thank you so much for your honesty in your post!! Congratulations on your Match Day, you must be so happy to almost be done with school! I have some questions if you don’t mind (I always have questions. LOL)

  1. How easy is it at UMKC to eventually qualify for in-state tuition? Do you know people who have been able to do so who were out-of-state/regional status to eventually pay in-state and is this common? If so, how were they able to do it? I’m not counting on it, but just wondering how those who were successful to get in-state tuition were able to do it.

  2. Why do you think even though UMKC gives so much extra exposure and experience to students in Internal Medicine – 6 months of inpatient Internal Medicine + 4 years of outpatient Internal Medicine a half-day a week, that students who go for Internal Medicine from UMKC still end up matching at the very best to strong mid-tier Internal programs, with some exceptions here and there? Do other Internal Medicine residency programs not know about UMKC’s exposure/experience, or maybe don’t think it’s that huge of a deal? I ask bc UMKC really is very proud of the entire Docent system as setting it apart from other traditional med schools, so why do the more prestigious/higher caliber residencies (https://www.doximity.com/residency_navigator/programs#residency_specialty_id=39) in Internal Medicine not recognize this (or maybe think it’s not strong or don’t care) and take UMKC students who would be much more experienced in comparison to traditional students when they start residency?

  3. Why are UMKC’s Step 1 scores lower than the national average? In talking to people, I realize that a lot of Step 1 studying is going to be independent study when you start in Year 4, but how comfortable do students feel about UMKC’s basic science courses and faculty instruction alone (without having to fall back on something like Kaplan) when it comes to teaching what’s necessary on Step 1, since I’ve heard that the score on that exam affects so much of your ability to realistically apply to certain specialties?

  4. What were some of the biggest frustrations you or others in your class had in the UMKC BA/MD program?

  5. You said you got into SLU’s Med Scholars 8 year program. I notice that SLU is ranked #67 for Research/#57 for Primary Care, while UMKC is “Unranked” in both. http://www.usnews.com/education/best-graduate-schools/articles/rankings-faq#9. - “Unranked means that U.S. News did not calculate a numerical ranking for that school or program. The school or program did not supply U.S. News with enough key statistical data to be numerically ranked by U.S. News.” So it looks like UMKC’s medical school made a decision to choose not to be ranked. When deciding between the two programs, did UMKC win out for you mainly bc of cost (SLU is ridiculously expensive for its 4 years of private undergrad) and time of saving 2 years? I ask bc SLU happens to have a lot of the specialties that UMKC happens to be missing. Is that one of the compromises you were willing to give up due to the huge cost difference?

  6. What specialty did you match into? (Only if you’re ok with revealing, it’s ok if you’re not, as I realize it might reveal your identity - if so, don’t do it)

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@PinkPrincess2014‌

  1. Getting instate tuition is ridiculously hard. I have heard of one person in my whole time year who was able to do it. You have to prove that you basically pay taxes in Missouri. That's why a lot of people's parents actually buy places in KC hoping that it would help their case but it doesn't. The guy who actually ended up getting instate tuition actually owned property in KC, actually worked a job in Missouri for a year and paid state income tax and kept fighting until he got it. And even when he did it was only for his last year of school. But hey 12k saved is 12k less you have to pay back. From my understanding you have to be relentless and it is a big headache with lots of paperwork to prove your residency in state. In reality, once you qualify for that after your third year, you honestly won't have the time to devote to that because you will be busy with other stuff.
  2. Let me clarify myself I guess. Primary care fields are easier to match into from UMKC, but the top places in each field will still be competitive because students from other top tier med schools will also be competing for the same spot. There are certain programs that love UMKC students, and tend to take students from our school time and time again because they know our background. But there are other institutions that don't know us very well at all. Mainly because we are not ranked due to our structure, and also not every single top tier institution has had a UMKC student rotate with them. I think where your extensive primary care training helps you out is when you go do away rotations at other places it shows that you've had more experience taking care of primary care patients than students who might have just done it for a month or so. That is how UMKC helps you stand out. You have to tools to be excellent at patient care and use that training to your advantage at another institution. Does that mean that every UMKC student surpasses other medical students in terms of clinical excellence? No. But if you work hard and get what you are supposed to out of that much primary care exposure then you can stand out.
  3. I cannot really comment on our USMLE Step 1 average because honestly that information is rarely shared by our school. I remember the dean telling us during my Year 1 that the number is above national average but that's about it. I don't know of anyone that has failed step 1 or even heard of that at our school. Mainly because UMKC is one of the few schools in the country that requires you take a comprehensive basic science exam (written by the writers of step 1 themselves) to test your basic science knowledge. You are only allowed to take step 1 if you pass that test. The other thing is, compared to other medical schools, UMKC students are 6-12 months out of finishing their basic science courses before they take step 1. You tend to forget a lot of stuff in that time no matter how hard you study. Other medical schools do two years of intense classes and then at the end of those two years, you take step 1. We have two years of classes, 6-12 month break where we go back to undergrad to finish our degree and then step 1. Despite that, I know UMKC graduates who have gotten > 270 on boards and ones who have gotten 198. It just depends on how you study for and take the test. But every year we have multiple people in the > 260 category and lots in the above 240 category.
  4. Honestly, there aren't really any BIG glaring frustrations that we have with our school. Its minor things like print quota when we were in basic science courses. Later on the difficulty in finding enough research projects was a bit annoying. Overall, its fine.
  5. I had a substantial scholarship at SLU so in the end it would have balanced out my debt regardless of where I went. For me, SLU was just not the right fit because I was not interested in the 4 year college part. Which I know to some people is weird to think about, but I didn't want to do 4 years of undergrad and not have any dedicated medicine exposure. I was young and super excited to start medicine and just could not wait. I mean in retrospect, now that my life is more chaotic would I have liked those 4 years to do something different before medicine started? Maybe. But in all honesty, I really didn't care much for all that free time and free summers. I would have been bored out of my mind.
  6. Oh man I wish my match day was today. I am not there yet. I am approaching that time soon enough haha.
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Excellently worded post @Blugrn6. I think it’s really great that you actually got to shadow as a high schooler real-time attendings and residents in the inpatient hospital setting so at least you were somewhat more prepared in terms of it not being such a huge shock later – seeing rounding on inpatients, being on call, seeing clinics, etc. I think doing that can give you a realistic idea of what your future medical training will be like and whether you can handle it - working under conditions of sleep deprivation, being hungry/tired and grabbing a quick bite, constantly moving, etc. You also see sometimes the emotional toll it takes and see how all of medical training affects the daily lives of residents and attendings as well. I think a lot of students who come in can’t wrap their minds around it, since they don’t have that experience. I definitely didn’t have that experience before I entered the program.

I think you worded things really great – even in my class by the end of Year 6, no one in my class was saying “Thank God I didn’t have to take the MCAT” (bc you take things much harder than the MCAT in med school) and “I’m so glad I get to graduate at 23/24”. They’re more just side perks at the end if anything, maybe something for your parents to brag about to family and friends ha ha. By that time, all of us just wanted to move on with the next phase of our lives, since all of us felt like we had sacrificed so much to get there.

I think some of the people who were most unhappiest were the people who were forced or pressured (obviously), who came based on a fear that getting into medical school was so competitive that they would never make it into medical school the normal way, or were unsure about medicine but didn’t want to pass up the opportunity (this one is the most common sentiment I think - which is understandable). The program is just structured in a way where you don’t get a lag time to make that decision while you’re in it, without it being a huge pain in the *** in terms of redoing credit hours and a huge monetary investment down the drain.

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  1. Did you feel restricted in any way with the types of undergraduate courses you were allowed to take bc you had to fit all your med school requirements in? I noticed that they cap your total hours in the first 2 years even though a lot of the hours are Pass/Fail-only Medicine courses: http://med.umkc.edu/curriculum/info/#bachelorsReq

  2. How do you think your overall med student body is like? Is it a lot of people who are born into medicine and/or are born in affluent circumstances? I just got that feeling on the day of my interview with the few people I met – had parents who were UMKC med alumni, family were full of doctors, had siblings who were doctors and had graduated from UMKC in the past, etc. Are the above a sizable majority? How is the maturity of students since you’re still taking 18 year olds and putting them early in med school and graduating them with the MD at 24 vs. most students who enter medical school and start at 22-24, is that sometimes a weakness?

  3. Can you tell me why you think the attrition rate (20.5%) and extension rate (couldn’t find exact numbers on this) in UMKC’s program is so high? Like what are the common reasons that people drop out or extend (whether they choose to extend or are forced to extend). Is it mainly limited to the first 2 years or does it happen often in Years 3-6 as well? Is there a huge stigma if you extend in the program from friends, faculty, administrators? Were there people in your class or other classes who felt after a certain point they were trapped in the program and they had no choice but to continue? Do you think the 6 years with no summers off contributes a big deal to extension and attrition?

  4. Is there a lot of competition for grades? I know that UMKC keeps a cumulative GPA from Year 1 to 6 and nearly everything is letter graded, except rotations which are Honors/High Pass/Satisfactory Pass/Marginal Pass/Fail. And you guys have a science GPA that you have to maintain throughout all 6 years. Is there a feeling of competitive feelings among students so they won’t share old notes, old exams, study guides, etc.? I didn’t know if the medical school ranks you in some type of way - since you had mentioned top of the class people, etc. How does that work?

  5. Do you think the UMKC medical school administration is very receptive to criticism from students on problems in the program - i.e. pace, quality of courses/instructors, etc.? Or receptive enough to quickly change things in response if things aren’t working? It seems like they just make things harder or more restrictive with new rules, etc.

@blugrn6, thank you for your contributions to this thread also, it really does help us immensely when we have to eventually sit down and make these final decisions with our families.

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AN OBSERVATION:

This is just my personal observation, I have no direct or even indirect knowledge, but maybe this will help some of those waiting for the April 1 decision to arrive.

The UMKC website says only two things, first, that decisions will be sent electronically on April 1, and second, that you will learn if you are accepted, rejected or wait listed. BUT HOW MANY ARE ACCEPTED? That is NOT clear!

The info at the website gives the stat re applications, interviews, and enrolled. And we were given the 2013 info if we went during a summer session, and we were given the 2014 info when we interviewed. I got that info and I understand it, so I do not need a link to the UMKC website.

So what am I getting at, what is my observation? I got two more acceptances during the last two weeks, and I have a number of acceptances, including two full-ride scholarships (both say that their packages “pay” for everything, but the “full-ride” includes Stafford loans and work study - colleges need to read about “truth in advertising”). My point is that I am currently accepted at nine universities. Clearly I will have to reject the others on May 1 by not responding.

Among other resources, I had used College Board’s College Handbook, and I noticed the first time when I looked at schools I was interested in, that they all accepted many more students than enrolled! And clearly the reason is obvious, many, if not most college applicants apply to numerous colleges to which they are qualified or close to qualified, so most applicants get numerous acceptances. Airlines have done the same for years by over-booking flights. In addition, I discovered that colleges with 1,100 opening may accept 2,300 applicants and waitlist 400 others, and reject the remainder. That is amazing, waitlisted applicants when the college accepted more students than they have room to accommodate!

But, the colleges know what they are doing, just like the airlines, they use past history and make assumptions how many will really accept! Law schools and medical schools, as well as graduate schools do the same thing - they “over -accept” because they know not everyone will accept, in fact, as many as 40% to 60% do not accept! And, because deposits have to be paid by May 1, few students will wait around for the waitlist, colleges are not dumb, they need a full class so they have to send out more acceptances than they have room for.

UMKC medical school never releases this data, although College Handbook shows it for undergrad, which I assume has medical school mixed into it since this is a BA/MD program.

My point is that I believe UMKC medical school will send out more than 120 acceptances!! Maybe for locals the number of over-acceptances will be less (it is lower cost for them), but regional and out-of-state have many ACT 33-36 and 3.9-4.0 GPA applicants, and those applicants are paying Harvard tuition rates for a lower-tier school, so UMKC has to know that most in not all of those applicants are applying to other accelerated programs, and of course, that if one is accepted at for example Georgetown, then that applicant would not enroll, even if accepted by UMKC! Locals tend to accept more often UMKC acceptances because of the low cost compared to many top tier colleges. But for non-Missouri residents, and especially oos applicants, we are much more likely to pick another medical program if we are accepted, because UMKC is the most expensive and it honestly has residency selection issues (I do not want to discuss that, but it is a factor any oss applicant accepted at UMKC and other med accelerated programs would consider!! Therefore, UMKC must, in my opinion send out more acceptances than they have openings!

This observation was supported by the numbers interviewed; In state interviewees were at a ration of about 3:1 for openings, regional were 4:1 and oss were 5:1 (10-15 oss openings, and 70-75 were interviewed). Therefore oss applicants are more likely to turn down UMKC because of (1) high out of state tuition, (2) the oss applicants are high achievers, who use UMKC as a “safe school” as they apply to medical programs across the country, and (2) a better program accepted the applicant. Thus I believe 30 to 45 oss students will get a notice of acceptance on April 1, and 90 to 110 regional stuents will get notices of acceptance, and that 90 to 110 Missouri applicants will get good news. That means 30+90+90=210 acceptance letters will be issued for the 110 - 120 positions. That fits the “norm” of other colleges, and honestly, the interview was so easy, and did not really count for that much in the final decision, their holistic formula already picked the pool of good candidates!

So if you interviewed, you have about a 67% chance of being accepted under my observation! So relax, by being interviewed you were placed in the group who will likely get an acceptance!

Out of all the interviewees, basically 2/3rd will get acceptances, and of the accepted group about 50% will enroll.

So relax, you probably will get good news!

4177

@PinkPrincess2014‌

I know the numbers are off, I did to correspond to the questions that you had listed above:

  1. There is no real feeling of restriction here because most people that choose to come to the program are ok with only taking required courses and would not be terribly upset that they did not get to take a photography class in college. Most students in the program, myself included, are science nerds at heart. We genuinely want to take anatomy, we can't wait to start structure function, etc. With that said, if you do liberal arts major you will have some room to take more electives that you want but there isn't that much room for your to explore. And I think this sort of transitions into your third question...
  2. Most people that leave the program didn't do so because they failed a class or had to extend for a year. Almost all of the ones from my class that left went to nursing school, dental school, or take their time and pursue the traditional route and take MCAT and apply to medical school later. One student left during his third year to go pursue a journalism degree. One left to join the fashion industry. Most people who graduate, including those who extended, all truly want to do medicine and do whatever it takes to work hard, graduate, and get into residency. Again, this all goes back to the whole, how much do you really want to do medicine? A lot of people who leave realize that this is not for them fairly quickly, they feel that they haven't explored enough, or that this was different than they thought. Most people, including those who extended, who leave the program are gone before second year ends. Rarely do you have someone who leaves during the third year, and it is unheard of that someone left during their fourth or fifth year. A comment on extending and stigma associated with that. The first two years the students all like feel bad for someone who extended or like oh my god what are they gonna do? etc but by the time you hit third year people forget that you extended, no one really cares shames you, and honestly those people become well incorporated in their new class. No one really thinks less of you or anything and most of the time the reason for extension is just not being able to pass a test you didn't study for etc. The whole not having summers thing is hard for some people. Again those who truly don't want to be here are gonna think this is the end of the world. For others, who loved their first year, summers become a time to be even closer to your friends. I don't think I've ever had the discussion with my friends about how much I have missed not having a summer break. I mean yea you'll miss it the first year, but honestly that summer was one of the best summers of my life despite being at school. After that first summer, which you still get a 2 weeks in the beginning off and two and a half weeks off in the end, you think about it and go: what did I do with all that free time. To us 3 months of summer break seems more scary than anything, even a two week vacation is enough and then its like, ok I'm bored time to go back to my life. Can't sit around and chill anymore. This is especially true of me and all of my Type A friends.

2 and 4. The student body is amazing, there is no like false notes that are passed around, or competition for grades etc. First, UMKC does not do class rank. Even if they do that information is hella protected because no one knows it. There is a medical school honor society, kind of like National Honor Society for high school, that is based on merit at UMKC. If you are in the top 25% of your class, based on some secret formula that they have that takes into account your GPA, your clinical grades, your board score etc, they invite you to apply. They select 4 out of those who apply in their fifth year to be in Junior AOA, and then 10-12 more in the 6th year to be senior AOA. That’s the only merit based classification at our school that I can think of. And in all honesty, no one really competes for junior AOA, its like if you get it, great, if you don’t its not the end of the world. The students are split 50/50 in terms of physician parents and non physician parents. There are super rich students at the school and others that are from normal “well off” families. No one really judges you for your financial status. Honestly, it is weird to have students who are young be medical professionals but honestly you will be surprised at the maturity level of some of the students here. And as you progress through the program that maturity just gets even better. The science GPA requirement is easy to maintain. I think you have to maintain a 2.9 to stay in your class and a 2.6 to stay in the program. As in, if you have a 2.7 they would make you extend so you can raise your GPA before you continue but won’t kick you out. That’s how it was for us. Most students don’t have any issue with maintaining that as long as you work for it.

  1. The medical school is receptive to our needs. We constantly give feedback and a lot of it is actually changed. After every class and rotation you take they make you fill out an evaluation, that is anonymous. The only thing they can see is if you did or not. It used to be that if you missed more than three evals, like did not submit them by the deadline, than you would get a letter or unprofessionalism in your file that would go out with residency applications. Two students who were passionate about that, fought with the school of medicine and got that policy changed. Now all that happens is that a list of the ones that you missed is given to your docent and your docent asks you for why you missed it etc. Our general surgery rotation occurs at two different hospitals and you are assigned to one or the other. They both have very different environments and experiences. Students complained that it was not fair, etc so now instead of doing two months at one place, you do a month at each. So I mean, the school listens to your feedback and honestly works to make it a better place for you. Some stuff they are more rigid about and you just have to pick your battles I guess.

To those who will be deciding at accept this program the best way I can describe it is this: people who come here and stay here truly love the program and love the environment. Is our school perfect? No. We know there are some flaws but in the end of the day we won’t stand back and watch people trash it. We are honest about our strengths and about our downfalls and we stand behind them no matter what. Some days are easier than others. I have never, once regretted coming to this program. It has been and will be an amazing six years of my life. An experience I would not want to trade for anything. But if you think that you can do better than the program, or don’t see your self coming here, please think twice before you accept. You won’t be happy here and ones who truly love this place won’t be happy with you if you have a “i’m better than this attitude”. Its ok to say, I want to go somewhere with more caliber and a more well known school; to each their own.

4178

@HopingMD‌

I see what you are saying but I don’t think that’s true per say. I mean what you are saying logically makes sense. And this might be different now than it was for us, but UMKC has a very intricate wait list system. This is how it worked for us:
They only send out 120 acceptance letters and then rank the remaining candidates who they interviewed 1, 2, 3 etc. As they start getting rejections, they start offering acceptances to students based on their rank list from how many rejected them. They do this until they get their goal class size or there are no candidates left. I remember the admissions dean telling us on interview day that some years they only have to go down that list to the top 2 spots and other years they had to go down 10-12 spots. She said it varies based on the year.
I know one or two people who were not accepted and then got accepted here after May 1st, after the original round of rejections came back and then they decided to come in. Plus, UMKC does a fairly good job of screening who they think would accept and would be a good fit vs. who they think would reject them. I know someone out of state who was accepted to an ivy league school, had signed their stuff and everything and then got accepted to UMKC and rejected the ivy league and decided to come here instead.

4179

@Blugrn6

You have wise points, and after all, I only had an observation, no real knowledge.

However, you are biased, and rightly so, in favor of UMKC. The prior threads and also other forums, like Student Doctor all point to the residency problem and general issues with UMKC as a bottom-rung medical school. I really do not want to argue it, but I have to point out that many of the oss students apply to many accelerated medical programs.

Also, to be blunt, UMKC medical school is the lowest requirement accelerated MD program, the only thing lower would be an osteopath program. Again I do not want to argue this, but if one looks to most programs, you cannot even apply unless you meet minimum ACT scores of 30 or an SAT of 2000.

The oss super-achievers with 4.0 unweighted and 2000 SAT and 33 ACT apply to UMKC as a “safe school” - they want to practice medicine and they know it. So they try for Case, Penn State, Rice, Drexel, and GW, hoping to get a medical school where they can get a great residency. Again, it is a fact, UMKC does not lead to the top residencies, and as a doctor-to-be, most oss applicants must weigh that fact when comparing UMKC to another program. And also the high tuition at UMKC with little to no chance of ever getting in state tuition. These are real factors that affect oss applicants. And another real factor for oss applicants is “what if I get rejected by all of my other accelerated programs?” These applicants want to be doctors! UMKC is NOT awful, not terrible, and if all other paths are closed, UMKC is better than nothing for these oss students.

How can UMKC read my mind and know I would accept GW over UMKC? Because my test scores are so high and my grades and stats? That would be silly, because maybe I love UMKC, so I do not see how they can determine who will reject them and who wont.

In fact, UMKC has a poor record of “reading minds” of oss applicants - in 2014 some super achievers were accepted by UMKC and they all turned-down UMKC. http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/multiple-degree-programs/1615807-bs-md-results-for-class-of-2014-p2.html In fact, look at Collegeponderer, he clearly used UMKC as a safe school and he was accepted hands down, and his stats sure should have alerted UMKC that he was “too good to accept their offer.” He also said as a “tip” that one must “apply to lots of schools.” So UMKC must send out on April 1 more acceptances to oss students than 10 - 15, because these applicants like Collegeponderer are getting multiple offers!

I believe the oss group of applicants in general, that is the rule, not the exception, follow his tip, and do apply to lots of accelerated medical programs. I also know that the application requirements to the UMKC accelerated program are the lowest of any MD program in the country, so I know it is my safe school.

So given that oss people like Collegeponderer do not accept UMKC’s offer if they have a better offer (e.g. from an accelerated medical program with a track record of great residency matches), I have to assume that UMKC gives more offers of acceptance for oss applicants than there are openings! This seems to be supported by the fact that UMKC interviewed 70-75 oss applicants for 15 openings - the admissions people know they need to offer more acceptances to that group because there is a high probability that super-achievers like Collegeponderer will not accept their offer. And to further support my observation - UMKC is very expensive for oss, and at the same time miserly with scholarship help for oss applicants, with no financial “honey” there is no way a oss applicant will pick a lower rated accelerated program over a higher rated program.

Hence, I observe that UMKC will give more than 10 acceptance offers on April 1 to oss applicants (and probably the same applies to regional). If they didn’t they would be the only accelerated medical school in the US to rely only upon a waitlist. All medical schools are stuck doing this because of the May 1 acceptance deadline, this is what all medical schools, and even all law school (including Harvard and Yale) do, so I cannot believe UMKC has a mentalist reading the minds of applicants. or solely relies on a waitlist UMKC clearly has to give more offers of acceptance than they have openings!

So relax everyone, if you interviewed, you have a better than 50/50 chance of getting accepted at UMKC!

4180

What’ are the chances of the admissions office sending out decisions before April 1st? Last year they sent them out on Thursday, March 27th, and something tells me that they will send them on Friday March 27th (they like to send stuff on Friday’s).