@ElliotPiano
Sorry, I have no logic, knowledge or observations about when UMKC will send out acceptances, etc.
Keep positive, if you interviewed, you have a good chance whenever they do send the results!
Interesting and SCARY ++++++++++++++++ Did You Know…?
Back in 1997 did you know that UMKC Medical School was in danger of losing its acredidation, of being placed on probation? Read this link : http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/multiple-degree-programs/10493-umkc-6-year-bs-md-program-p151.html
I did not know that! Yes, that is 8 years ago, but I see no such issues with Case, U of Missouri, U of Kansas, or other medical schools about to lose accreditation 8 years ago!
SCARY : (
As for this “debate” about Step 1 scores at UMKC, the admissions lady told me UMKC’s Step 1 scores were low when I asked the question during the interview day! This clearly is a known fact, and has been true for a long time, read Allstar2010, he described the Step 1 scores and the residency issues and more very clearly and directly: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/multiple-degree-programs/10493-umkc-6-year-bs-md-program-p151.html
I do NOT believe UMKC is horrible, I applied there. But, I did not know all of this when I began my application by going to the UMKC summer event in July 2014. Knowing what I now know, would I still have applied? Yes, because I want to be a doctor, and it seems like a good safe school! I have my concerns, and I would have to work extra hard to find research and contacts for match purposes, etc if I had to go to UMKC, but I can handle that.
However, I will not answer this question, I leave it for others to answer silently to themselves: If I am accepted at a better accelerated medical program and one that costs lass than UMKC costs for oss students, would I pick UMKC?
And it becomes even clearer that UMKC will be giving more than 110 offers of acceptance, it is not a top choice. But, that is not bad, it just is a fact. And, UMKC is still a choice for many of us, including me!
@HopingMD, just so we’re on the same plane, that was 18 years ago, not 8 years ago, since that was 1997. I actually entered the program in 1997.
Sorry, TYPO, I thought I hit the 1 and the 8 keys on my touch pad, sorry for the dumb mistake, I was so shocked by what I read that I did not proof well enough.
I still stand by what I wrote, UMKC is not terrible, and if accepted and it was my only MD choice then my answer would be a clear yes to attend. I do want to be a doctor, and I do not want to go the traditional 8 year route. However, my eyes have been opened, and I see UMKC more clearly now.
Is that bad? Does it mean I dislike UMKC? No, absolutely not! But, I know its standing as well as what it does for my residency chances. I can now clearly weigh my other options and not feel later that I was “tricked.”
If I am accepted (a BIG if, too, I must add) then if it is my only choice, I willingly accept UMKC and will do my best to learn and add to the program. Knowing its beauty and its warts is my way of not getting regrets if I go there; I will go there knowing the good and the bad, and that way I will be happy with my choice.
PS thanks @UMKCRoosMD for all of your insight and many posts!
Primary Care type Specialties
Internal Medicine: 31
Pediatrics: 15
Internal Medicine-Pediatrics: 4
Family Medicine: 6
“ROAD” or other lifestyle oriented specialties
Radiology: 6
Ophthalmalogy: 2
Anesthesiology: 5
Dermatology: 1
Emergency Medicine: 7
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation: 4
Pathology: 1
Psychiatry: 3
Surgical Specialties:
General Surgery: 3
Preliminary Surgery: 3
Orthopedic Surgery: 7
Otolaryngology: 2
Oral Surgery: 1 (this isn’t a field available to med students, but to those who have completed a DDS degree)
Neurological Surgery: 1
Plastic Surgery: 1
Urology: 1
Don’t know where to fit these (lol)
Obstetrics/Gynecology: 4
Neurology: 1
Transitional Year: 1
So to anyone who was interested (or not), here is my interpretation of this year’s match list. I copied and pasted the 3 columns of the 2015 match list to Excel and had it filter and count up the number of people in each specialty. You can see this tabulation above.
Right off the bat I noticed that there are 110 people who matched (compared to last year 84), which has to be the biggest class I’ve seen match. Almost always the class match/graduation sizes are in the high 80s. They seem to be taking on more students at the last half of Year 2 with MD-only students (which finally now they have opened up to also those who aren’t from Missouri) to make up and go beyond attrition, since they are taking the same number of students at the Year 1 level even in my time. No question that it brings in a lot more tuition money to UMKC when you replace a Missouri student who left with a regional/out-of-state student. I also think part of the reason that match lists are improving is that much more of the class is outside Missouri than it used to be, even though UMKC is a public med school.
When I was in school it was either in-state/out-of-state at a ratio of 90:10. Now there is a regional category (which is still expensive for a regional compared to their state school IMHO), so the ratio of in-state:regional:out-of-state is (10-15):(30-35):(60-65). Students who pay much more in tuition will naturally want to go in specialties that pay off their student loans quicker - at least with the way the reimbursement scheme is now, fee-for-service, which will have disappeared by the time you practice, but since no one knows the results of that new system, you just make the best decision in the circumstances you have.
As always, not surprisingly, about half the class went for primary care fields. Traditional Primary Care is considered to be Internal Medicine + Pediatrics + Family Medicine + Medicine-Pediatrics = 31 + 15 + 6 + 4 = 56. I guarantee nearly most of the people in IM and Peds will not be primary care physicians. They will enter subspecialty fellowships and thus become specialists.
Not surprisingly, the people who were AOA (Alpha Omega Alpha) got into better institutions – this will be the case at any medical school. You can see the people who were nominated to AOA from UMKC either on the UMKC website or on the Alpha Omega Alpha website. I also think AOA helped a lot when it came to specialties that UMKC doesn’t offer, see the 2 people who got into Otolaryngology (ENT) - although even those weren’t “top” places in that field - one in the Midwest and one in Mississippi.That being the case, there were people who matched into great institutions even without AOA – see the Plastics match, the Anesthesia match at Beth Israel with Harvard, Ortho at Harvard, etc. Those people were likely (but I’m not sure of course) top of their class (just didn’t get AOA), but also may have done other things - publishing, rotating there, etc. We’ll never know just from looking at the list.
I notice that a lot more people got Radiology, Orthopedics, PM&R spots (UMKC does not have a PM&R program, but there is a child PM&R doctor at Children’s Mercy who probably mentors students and he went to KU’s PM&R residency program). It could be a fluke, bc last year only 2 people got into Radiology and 1 person into PM&R but those may have been the only ones interested that year. What’s good is that at least you have the potential to match in those fields coming from UMKC. I think those better numbers are 100% related to the improved Ortho and Rads departments - who have new, better, nicer faculty, are actively mentoring students on their applications, are taking a greater role in their student Interest groups, etc. Much different than in my time when UMKC Ortho and UMKC Rads hardly even took UMKC students, and the match lists reflect that.
Ophtho and Derm have always had small numbers – The Ophtho Dept isn’t a huge mentor for students (they also hardly took UMKC students to their own residency) although 2012 was an exception, http://med.umkc.edu/ophthalmology/current-residents/. Derm has never been great since UMKC does not have a Derm residency.
@HopingMD, well 8 years to 18 years is a huge leap. LOL. That’s a difference of a decade of life! lol. I’m just ribbing
One moment you say UMKC is a very low ranked school. I agree with you. In terms of rankings, UMKC is not a top-tier and it’s definitely not a middle-tier med school either. Missouri (Mizzou) or KU are more in the category of mid-tier medical schools. I would even make the argument that if you’re a regional or out-of-state student, you’re probably wildly overpaying. I still disagree with you about lower than an osteopathic school. All residency directors will take a US student from the lowest ranked allopathic school over a US osteopathic student with the exact same applications from both. That’s just the reality.
But the next moment, you say if it was the only BS/MD program you were accepted to, that you would go. Why? My point is if you are so smart (which I genuinely believe that you are, since very few people have perfect standardized test scores and a good CV at an early age), why would you be so afraid that there is no way you would ever get accepted into any medical school in the country? As great as you are, you could possibly even get into a top-tier school if not a solid middle-tier school with a full merit scholarship. 2 years is absolutely NOTHING in the grand scheme of things.
This is not a judgement on you, but I’m always amazed by the people who are truly intelligent who are the most risk-averse when it comes to their education. It is not necessary to have a 4.0 undergrad GPA and/or a 45 MCAT from college to get into medical school. Contrary to what many people think, the hardest filter isn’t getting into medical school, especially now that there are 140 medical schools in the country. The hardest filter is actually getting into certain residency specialties, where the filter can get very tight if not closed.
As mentioned by @Blugrn6, unlike the layman advice that all medical schools are the same or that it doesn't matter which med school you go to, that's really not true. At all. You can tell that based on their match lists. There are schools where you will be at a disadvantage coming from the school you're coming from. My fear for you is that you would come to UMKC, and then be very soon frustrated by the deficiencies that UMKC has in certain areas and you would get more upset since you'd be paying out-of-state tuition on top of that. You would feel that you compromised way too early and you would have regrets which might affect your performance in medical schol. I've seen out-of-state people by the end, absolutely abhor UMKC by the end, bc they felt "cheated" in this regard.
Thank you @Blugrn6, for clearing up the issue about getting in-state tuition. I thought it was much easier to get (i.e. buying a home in Missouri, changing driver’s licenses, etc.) but it seems like they are still making people prove that you paid Missouri income tax which is much harder to prove unless your parent moves to work in Missouri, etc. I’ve even heard of people move to Missouri their next to last year of high school so they can get in-state tuition (which is crazy since you have no way to know if you’d get into UMKC’s BA/MD program or not).
I do disagree with @Blugrn6, on one point: It’s not true that UMKC is not ranked in the US World News and Report bc it’s a 6 year medical program. That may be the excuse they use, but it’s not really true. I’m sure USWNR would note that for UMKC if that was indeed the case: http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-graduate-schools/top-medical-schools/university-of-missouri-kansas-city-04058. Any medical school in the country can choose not to participate in the ranks if it wants to. It would make sense if they took very few MD-only students like in my time, but they take a much larger percentage of those students now so they do have the data.
@UMKCRoosMD
I totally see your point. I have always heard that the reason we are not ranked is because of our structure and how part of our medical school curriculum takes places in the last part of our second year and then we have a whole semester to go back to undergrad to finish our bachelor’s degree fourth year. But that can easily be something that is being passed around to make us feel better to mask the fact that the school is avoiding being ranked because they don’t want to know the result. I should have probably not claimed that my reasoning was a fact, I was just speculating.
I also completely agree with the point you made to @HopingMD. From the way you talk and present yourself, I feel like you are a high achieving person. I am sure you will get accepted to other more, intense programs over UMKC, but if UMKC is your only one, and you see how limited you can be here, why would you come here? I agree with @UMKCRoosMD I don’t want you to feel cheated at the end and regret your decision.
Coming into the program, I knew that my end goal was not academics at a top tier institution. My goal was to go to a clinical program because I have never been super interested in bench research. I am more interested in clinical projects if I would go the research route to begin with. With your credentials I’m sure you can go to an awesome undergraduate school and easily get into a top tier institute to get an MD and actually do great things in academics. Just think about that before you make your decision, because honestly, compared to Step 1 and other things you have to do in med school, taking the MCAT and taking two extra years is NOTHING compared to the rest of your life and your career aspirations.
With that said, coming here is not the end of academics. In every class since I’ve been here, at least one-two students from the class have taken a year off to go pursue a research year at NIH or another institution to match at a top tier academic institution or into an intense speciality. To give some examples past students who took a year off to match in: top tier ophthalmology and radiation oncology (there are only like 20 spots in the whole nation or something crazy like that). We have students who want to pursue neurosurgery and dermatology who took a year off and joined our class. I know students who are leaving our class and going to NIH research year because they want to do intense specialities. But again, that comes at a greater expense, having to take a year off, dealing with curriculum to make that adjustment in your schedule, only to have saved one year and not taking the MCAT in the end. Whereas, going to another higher tier medical school, you can probably get a head start on research in your first year and probably spare yourself having to take a year off in medical school, or even get a jump start in your undergraduate years.
I have two cousins my age who have gone the traditional route because to them going to an a top 10 academic institution for medical school was more important than having a guaranteed admission.
To everyone who applied:
Don’t think about it in terms of guaranteed acceptance. Think about it in terms of your entire life. I know its hard to do that when you’re 18 and that’s part of the problem. I feel like there is so much stigma associated with taking your time to figure out what it is that you want, especially in the Asian community (I am Asian so I can say that). People often loose sight of what’s important to them. I was fortunate in the fact that my parents discouraged me from coming to UMKC, so they made me think twice and justify my decision to them and it made me sure of what I wanted. A lot of people don’t go through that experience and I encourage you all to think long and hard before you accept anything. Because you will really kick yourself in the future if you had to settle for something else because you didn’t have the encouragement and resources you needed. That is more annoying than any number of hours you will spend studying for the MCAT or the stress you will go through to apply to medical school.
Just as a clarification, because I hear this a lot from high school students here who say they don’t care which medical school they go to because they don’t want to do basic science/bench lab research. Most medical students in the United States are not going to be doing laboratory bench type research in medical school. It is very difficult to publish this type of research in a journal, takes hordes of time, and the only medical students who participate in this type of research are usually MD/PhD students. The journals for basic science research are much more rigorous and harder to publish in, than in clinical journals. Also most medical students, in general, aren’t going to end up working in academia as attendings. By academia/academic medical centers, I’m talking about any hospital that is directly connected/affiliated with a medical school that has med students/residents/fellows rotate.
However, when it comes to clinical research, that’s a whole different ball game. Residency programs at medical schools, which are all in academic medical centers, are pumping out clinical research publications because they have to. It’s part of being promoted for clinical faculty to get tenure. Part of the mission of academic medical centers is to find out more knowledge clinically and at the science level - it’s why they get so much external funding. So medical students participate in these type of things, because it’s also a way to help them when it comes to matching into better residencies at better institutions. Any type of research for a residency program attracts better faculty, which creates a better name, which attracts better students, etc. you know how the cycle goes.
It’s why I hate when students here say they don’t like research at all so it’s no big deal which med school they go to. As a doctor, when it comes to new guidelines or new understanding of diseases - this is based off reading journal articles - which is research. You will be reading research all the time in your field till the day you stop practicing. The simplest piece of research – a case report – is research.
Most medical students don’t participate in research because they have a huge affinity for research or because they want to eventually become mainly researchers or because they want to work in academia. They participate in it because it helps them on their CVs for residency applications, and it can even be a requirement just to be interviewed for the competitive specialties. It can even help you get into the better programs even in non-competitive specialties. Of course, if you enjoy the underlying stuff in clinical research then it won’t be as huge of a burden to you. But clinical research is very easy to participate in without previous experience.
@Blugrn6, yeah back when I was a student, the advanced standing students (they’re now labeled “MD-only” students) entered starting the summer of Year 3 with Anatomy (Gross, Histology, Neuroanatomy), and did 4 full years. It was about 10-12 students total and all had to be from Missouri or Johnson/Wyandotte County in Kansas. So they only missed our Biochem I/II and Medical Physiology in the basic sciences. But in order to get into the program they had to take Biochemistry and Physiology, although at the undergrad level: http://web.archive.org/web/20001010194734/http://www.med.umkc.edu/selection/instructions.html. This was before they created Human Structure Function to give much more time to Anatomy rather than the hell-hole of teaching it all in the summer. So now MD-only students only miss Biochem I since they come much earlier at Year 2.
Even back then though, UMKC chose not to be ranked by USWNR. I was surprised bc UMKC really emphasizes primary care and still chose not to be ranked even in the primary care list by USWNR. @HopingMD, if you can, maybe you should look up what the average GPA and MCAT score/subscores are for MD-only students at UMKC in the Medical School Admissions Requirements book released by the AAMC. If I remember correctly, the MCAT average for UMKC med students is quite low.
See in Amazon or go to the library: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Medical+school+admissions+requirements
Regardless, don’t come into UMKC already coming in with regrets or feeling like you’ve settled, or with the attitude of “I’m only here bc of the MD or I normally wouldn’t come here” (I’m not quoting you @HopingMD, just saying in general), bc unlike other places, you will be utterly miserable there, especially if you’re not used to cold, snowy weather, no extended breaks, etc. Make sure you know all the compromises you’re making by coming to this program.
@HopingMD, I think you meant George Washington University, not Georgetown, in terms of other accelerated med programs. Both are in DC, but they are different institutions. You are also correct, that UMKC ALWAYS sends out more acceptances than people who actually end up matriculating in the 6 year program. I don’t think UMKC has ever hidden this fact though.
You are also correct that UMKC’s OOS tuition is higher than any private medical school, including Harvard. Just as an FYI, the highest private allopathic medical school in the U.S. currently is Dartmouth at $58,368. Harvard is $55,785.
Tuition at George Washington University is $50,367 (starting Fall 2015) per year and George Washington University's medical school is $55,272 to 56,140. GWU is a middle-tier medical school.
@Blugrn6, you are much more advanced and mature even at a young age. Kudos to you for you perspective. I think everyone who has been through the UMKC 6 year program agrees that it really requires you to grow up much faster than usual, and for some people much faster than they would like. At times it can get very exhausting, and I think the experience there is different than traditional med students in terms of experiences. There really is such a thing as having a good “fit” when it comes to medical schools bc they are all so very different in certain aspects.
I’m very understanding and sympathetic to Asian/immigrant families, especially those who are not of affluent means, who feel the UMKC 6 year program is a straight shot to an endpoint, when they see that the traditional route can feel like an unnecessary jumping through hoops.
What students who enter this program sometimes fail to realize is that it is so much more complicated than that. I’ll be honest, even when I entered, I knew that one of the reasons I entered was because I would feel so guilty giving up a med school acceptance (nothing parent-induced, but they were obviously proud as any parent would be). I also know that I’m hard working/diligent/conscientious (when I need to be, lol) and would have done just as well. But like you said, most 18 year olds will look at this as a guaranteed acceptance, and not be able to think about what they want in terms of their entire life. Honestly, I think very few students in reality can honestly, make the decision at 18 that physician and only physician is the right career for them, which is why a lot of the BS/MD programs that started as 6 years have slowly become 7 then 8 years, or many of them have disappeared as an option altogether.
You asked a direct question to me, so I will answer it. Perhaps I am a high achiever, but the world is full of people with perfect ACT or SAT scores and 4.0 GPAs. The fact is that you are old, you come from a prior generation, since then, the world has changed - the economy sucks, people graduate with gigantic debt and jobs with no openings. The sad fact is that there are a whole bunch of people out there, and more, many more born every second. As the other guys point out, residency openings are capped, and although it does not impact you - it does impact my younger generation! There are more and more people, and many of them are very smart and very driven, and yet the openings at medical school, Wharton, etc are all basically frozen! It was easy for you - you had more chances, you could afford to screw up or take chances. That has changed, my generation cannot take those chances. And, now we have to worry about frozen residencies and more med school graduates that residencies!!! My generation is facing a different world than you faced.
I did apply to numerous accelerated programs. I am not smart; I work hard, very hard! I get great test scores because I analyze the samples until I learn the pattern, I wake up at night and have to write my thoughts down, I work and work until I find the pattern, until I know the answers and then I crush the tests. That is not because I am smart, and I have no delusions about that. It is because I work hard, very hard! Other kids are smart, they have it easy, but I must work constantly. But, as Hegel and Marx long ago pointed out, work is good, work is only bad when on is alienated from his labor and thus from himself. Yes, I am a science nerd, but I also am a philosopher, a neo-Hegelian epistemologist and esthetician.
I have thought out very clearly my reasons for wanting to be in an accelerated medical program, and I say bs to words about being 18 and unable to know. I am 17, and I know already that I want an accelerated path, and my reasons why. I did not pick UMKC as my safe school, I thought it was much better than it truly is; and much of my posts have been my journey of discovery, of finding out the truth about UMKC.
Is UMKC horrible? No, and I have repeatedly said it is not! But, UMKC is also not a top tier medical school, in fact it is not even a middle tier medical school. That cannot be debated.
So if you ask why I would go to such a horrible medical school if I was rejected by all the others, when it would make me unhappy - I must answer you that you did not understand what I was saying, you are looking at me upside down. I have to fear being rejected and thus apply to many schools. That is the advice of many top achievers right here at college confidential. In fact, Collegeponderer said so, and he applied to UMKC, was accepted, and then said no to UMKC because he said it was a poor program and he took another medical school acceptance. That is what my generation does. Why? Because there are more and more people seeking the limited openings. His scores were incredible, he even had a scholarship from Case, yet he applied to UMKC, just like me, because my generation must apply to many medical schools, we need “safe schools.”
I want to be a doctor, something you cannot understand because you do not know me, nor do you know the depth of that desire!
@Blugrn6, you never held your dying sister in your arms like I did, so please do not equate your reasons or some other kids’ reasons to my reasons! You have no idea of my reasons and no idea of the things I have explored and why. Please do not attempt to question my reasons nor my maturity, I have seen death and felt the growing coldness of a lifeless body in my arms.
April 1 is coming, and I may be rejected by every other accelerated program, and then I will happily take UMKC, and as I wrote previously, I will do my best to learn and to add to the program. I am not a taker, I am a giver. If only UMKC wants me, then why in the heck would I walk away crying? Why would I refuse, saying that I would be unhappy? That is nuts! That is also contrary to what I wrote.
I will go even further. Assume all accelerated medical programs reject me, including UMKC. Will I be unhappy? Yes, my pride will hurt, rejection stings! But, I have been accepted already into a good osteopathic program and I will very happily take it and become the best darn doctor that I can be! Why would I be upset going to DO school if all the MD schools rejected me? I can still become a doctor, and that is the fire in my belly, becoming a doctor.
So going to UMKC would not be the end of the world for me, but my being open an honest about what I have learned, like the truth about the Step 1 scores, residency issues etc at UMKC, that just means I would be accepting UMKC knowing all the negatives and positives. Knowledge is not something that I consider to be wrong or evil, in fact seeing the truth about UMKC and sharing with others is good, very good. And the truth is that UMKC is not horrible! But, UMKC is also lower than a middle-tier medical school! But, so what, it also has many pluses!
@UMKCRoosMD
No offense was taken from your advice, but you really are wrong, if I only had UMKC to accept me, then I would not be “miserable.” Please do not put yourself in a hypothetical and tell me your feelings as if they were my feelings. I am very much aware of my feelings. Please, this is not an attack on you, it just is that you do not know me nor my feelings. And, I suspect many who only get an acceptance at UMKC will go to UMKC, because it is their only option - but that is pure conjecture on my part. Whether they are happy or not depend upon them.
The other point is that I have been on this journey - I used to see UMKC as wonderful, but I have learned so much, and I want to share what I am learning with others of my generation, other applicants. You started at UMKC in 1997, I was born in 1997, you come from a very different world.
My sharing facts that I have learned is not trashing UMKC, truth is not something to hide! Socrates was murdered because he spoke out, but truth still got out. I have not said UMKC is horrible, but I have shared the truth. And the truth is that anyone accepted by UMKC needs to consider the negatives in addition to getting “into medical school.” I seek to help others, to share my journey. I have also made an observation recently to make applicants feel good, that many of them have a chance to get accepted.
I am simply trying to share information. I have nothing to prove, and I am a mere mortal - I make mistakes every day, including typing 8 for 18.
Again I have taken no offense, thank you for your guidance and pointers, but please try to understand seeking the truth and then sharing it does not mean I am anti-UMKC or that I would be horribly unhappy there.
@HopingMD, dude, CALM DOWN. @Blugrn6 is not “old” or from a “prior generation”. It’s only been 5 years since he entered the freaking program. It’s not like he graduated in the 1960s when Medicare first started, or even in the 80s/90s, and has been practicing. Neither is @UMKCRoosMD who graduated in 2003. He/She could just as much argue that students at UMKC’s med program have it much easier now in certain respects – Human Structure Function being 7 months long rather than being taught in 2 months.
@Blugrn6’s contributions are very valid, introspective and thorough, probably the best I’ve seen on this thread from someone who is actually still currently in the program and I think you should take them for what they are, and not as personal insults (not saying you are, but your tone conveys differently). Guess what, 10-20 years from now, the young generation will say you had it so “easy”. Every generation says the previous generation had everything easy. It might be true in some ways, but not in others. Perfect example, before 2003, there were no work hour restrictions and doctors were working 100 hours+ in residency per week. Now it’s capped at 80 hours. You wanna bet the older generation saying that residents have it easier now? They don’t realize that doctors have much more paperwork for reimbursement now. It’s never black and white like you think it is.
Whether you believe it or not, you are smart. While it may feel like there are tons of people who come in with a 36 ACT/2400 SAT, that is just not true, in terms of overall percentage of all test scores. SAT: https://minglam.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2009/10/25/how-many-people-get-perfect-2400-in-sat-test/; ACT: http://www.actstudent.org/scores/norms1.html. Yes, you might be a hardworker, but anyone pursuing medicine is a hardworker although at different degrees. And yes, we all feel that others are smart AND have it easier than they do. It’s one of the downsides, that no matter how actually smart you may be, there will always be someone smarter or makes it look easier, than you - not to mention people blatantly lie about how hard things are for them (not you), which continues into med school. There is a lot of insecurity that festers in professional fields. I think that’s the one part of College Confidential that sucks is that it’s such an enclosed bubble where everyone looks at things solely by objective metrics: GPA, standardized test scores, etc. I swear the neuroticism in this place, College Confidential, is well parodied for good reason: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=College+Confidential.
You can see the statistics on tuition on the AAMC website for every single med school since 1996. UMKC’s OOS tuition has ALWAYS been too high - it’s no surprise that most OOSers who come to UMKC are very wealthy - whether their famlies themselves are in medicine or otherwise. Regional tuition has only existed since 2007. UMKC has never advertised itself as a top-tier medical school. I don’t think it even advertises itself as being a middle-tier medical school, honestly. I don’t think it advertises itself as big on research either. Unlike 1997, you have the internet at your full disposal to find out everything about this program.
The economy has always waxed and waned in terms of prosperity and recession, now is absolutely no different on that point. The student loan debt problem has been going on for quite some time now, like DECADES. The total number of residency positions (or more the federal money allocated towards training physicians) has been capped since like 1997. More med schools are being created - which is why the competition is getting more stiff for residency spots - but even then >95% of US allopathic med students get a residency position. It may not necessarily be in their first choice specialty, but they get it. If that is way too much risk for you, then physician is not a proper career for you. You can practice medicine being an NP/PA in specialties as well, unless the issue then is perceived prestige (not accusing you of this), which even then nobody honestly cares.
What’s silly is that even if you were to get no BS/MD acceptances, you are more than ready to jump into a BS/DO program automatically already lowering your ability to enter many competitive specialties, just based on sheer numbers of residency programs available in the allopathic vs. osteopathic world. I’m assuming here (I admit maybe wrongly) that you are likely to want to go for more competitive specialties, vs. something like primary care. Can you please explain: Are you scared of the traditional route? Does 1-2 years saved really make that huge of a difference for you overall? Or is it the safety/peace of mind of knowing you’re in? If you’re that scared of the traditional route, then medical school itself will send you into a huge tailspin.
There is a reason that BA/MD and BS/MD programs are known as the ALTERNATIVE route for admission. They aren’t fully endorsed by the AAMC as a route that all medical schools should take.
While you may disagree about being 18 and knowing about wanting to do medicine thru an accelerated program (or medicine at all), the truth is that you have yet to really experience REAL medicine at all. High school volunteering/shadowing doesn’t really count, unless maybe you’ve directly shadowed residents/attendings in a residency program, taken call with them, etc. even then it’s just a small taste. You really don’t get a taste of this until Year 5 rotations (MS-3 at other places) or knee-deep in residency which by then it’s way too late to suddenly see that medicine wasn’t exactly like you thought it was going in.
A lot of this journey to being a “good doctor” as you term it is life experience, which unfortunately don’t currently have - which is ok, because you will have it in due time. Medicine isn’t all science either. A lot of my profession, and a lot of what you’ll be doing in this field for decades won’t be science-related. There is a reason that medicine is truly called a “service” profession. Try to be a little more trusting of those who have gone through these things before you. You’ll have more experiences yourself, of course, but don’t be so easy to dismiss others and say they just had it easier (may not be what you think you’re doing but that’s how it sounds). Life isn’t just “Doctor or Bust”, and I guarantee you that physician isn’t the only route to happiness.
There are many students whose only BA/MD acceptance is UMKC’s 6 year program, and they walk away from it. None of them walking away “crying” I can assure you. You can look at other websites, where people are 100% glad they didn’t do that route, or if they did get acceptances they turned it down, went the normal route and got even a better deal. They are not uber-geniuses. No one is saying you’ll come in unhappy, but as the program gets harder, sometimes regret sinks in, and you’ll compare yourself to your other friends, and then wonder why you did the program, when maybe, just maybe you could have gotten into a just as good, if not better program. After what you have said, and as smart as you are, there is no way you won’t have some regret some where along the line, especially if you don’t want to do primary care.
First off, I was just ribbing (it means joking) you about the mistake of 8 vs. 18 years. I said that I was joking previously. I never said you were anti-UMKC either. We all speak from our own experiences and no is the objective arbiter as we’d all like to believe we are. UMKC is a good fit for some people and a bad fit for other people. This statement would be accurate if you replaced UMKC with any other med school in this previous sentence. While you may think the term “fit” isn’t really applicable to medical school, there are tons of applicants, med students, residents who will tell you it is a very valid term when it comes to choosing medical schools.
While you may have been born when I entered UMKC’s med program, the trials and tribulations of med students, at UMKC and otherwise are near universal. I never said you were “trashing” UMKC.
@HopingMD, no one is talking about hypotheticals. I never said my feelings are your feelings. I am telling you what I have seen from classmates and students who were out-of-state who decided to attend UMKC’s 6 year program - this from my year (Class of 2003) all the way down. I never said you will, but that it’s a high risk. You would also suspect wrong. There were people in my class (he was in-state though), who turned down Northwestern’s HPME program for UMKC bc of the six year program. I’m not saying it’s a good/bad decision - as I would have chosen differently in that instance. There were people in my class who turned down Mizzou’s Conley Scholars Program and SLU Med Scholars program to enter UMKC’s program. I would also have chosen differently in those scenarios. I don’t know how many BS/MD programs you applied to and which ones you applied to. There are definitely a lot more BS/MD programs available now then there were before. You can see this in previous MSAR books.
What I don’t understand and you haven’t really explained, is why the traditional route scares you so much even to the point of doing a BS/DO program (which I HIGHLY caution against you doing, but realize you’ll do what you think is best for you), when you are not the average student, but above average, if not way above average. Yes, you’re a hard worker, but I guarantee you there are tons of hard workers who don’t get the scores you got.
@UMKCRoosMD, thank you so much for your detailed interpretation of the match list! I liked the splitting by your categories as well. Also @bluegrn6, I hope you continue to post here giving advice also – it is very much appreciated and please feel free to be as detailed as you need to be.
Question – what does it mean on the list of the people who applied and just got into Preliminary Surgery (3) or Transitional (1) only? What do they do after internship?
@UMKCRoosMD and @Roentgen you are both helpful guys, and ribbing is fine, it actually is a way that often leads to bonding. No offense has been taken from either of you, even if you are both OLD, lol.
Why am I against the traditional route? I sold a medical/electronic device I created to Medtronic PLC, and as part of the process I studied for several months in Rochester at Mayo, where I showed my revised procedures for using my device and other equipment. I will not go into this in depth, but I have through hard work certain abilities, and I can make lives better, if not actually save lives. I have been told this over and over at Mayo and at Cedars in California. Morally, (remember, I am a published in Neo-Hegelian ethics) it is my duty to not waste two tears going the regular way to get my degrees. That is my problem with going to MIT and then med school - it will take too long, and that means people will suffer because of my delay. It is not out of “fear” that I have chosen accelerated over the traditional route, it is because of ethics, my obligation. I cannot debate ethical systems here, but accept the postulates that: 1. I have a medical background, even as a kid; 2. I know I want to be a doctor; 3. I have seen death, felt a person grow colder holding her after she died; and 4. I have certain abilities to help, abilities that need to be trained and then utilized to help others. Given these postulates, I have a moral duty to become a doctor and begin helping others as soon as possible.
As a side note, the royalties that I am paid for the sale of my device means that I am paying totally for my own education and that I can afford even Dartmouth medical schoo. Since I am paying, meaning it is my money, I find oss at several schools too high, hence my concerns there. Also, money means little to me as a commodity. I trade my royalties via an account I have with a commodity broker, I sold week 4 March S&P put spreads - long 1950, short 1960, two weeks ago when the market was falling for a credit of $0.50. The goal is for it to become worthless, that is for the S&P futures to close higher than 1960. The position expires next Friday, and if the S&P cash closes above 1960, then I will have made $5,850 in three weeks. My royalty income and S&P trading income combined is more money than I need, so as a doctor, I do not intend to bill patients who cannot afford me, I want to be like St Jude Hospital, no one is denied for lack of money.
As for DO programs, the answer is simple for me. Yes there is a stigma, or more accurately there used to be a stigma attached to being a DO; but if my moral obligation is to practice medicine, to help people as soon as possible, then taking an accelerated DO versus an 8 year MD program becomes a clear choice. As a side note, DOs actually can apply for DO and also MD residencies, they have technically more options, and every MD to whom I have spoken about a DO option has said that the negatives associated with being a DO no longer apply, and a dept heard at Mayo made it very clear that DO negativity does not apply at Mayo or any other major teaching hospital (excluding certain redneck back woods places, of course). The school of graduate medical education at Mayo accepts DOs for residencies and fellowships - I know, I have spoken to some of them and to team members. So do I pick DO over MD? Even though I think and believe they are both equal, I pick being an MD over being a DO. But, I also pick UMKC if every other MD program rejects me. I will do what is necessary. And if UMKC also rejects me, then I still will become a doctor at an accelerated rate.
I have spoken to many professionals, at MIT, Cedars, and Mayo; as well as doctors I have worked with, and my decisions are based upon many, many hours of give-and-take analysis and discussions. My goals and path are clear and it has been very well analyzed. I am not driven by fear, rather I am driven by hard work and my need to help others.
Now, it is time to wait and see the results, April 1 is fast approaching!
@HopingMD, your comments come off as arrogant.
I have not gone into my achievements on purpose, read all of my comments before you take jabs and write nasty notes to me, my friend.
I answered a direct question asked several times, by two people I have communicated with, and it would have been rude not to answer, and not to answer fully!
It was not addressed to you, it was clearly in response to MDs and it showed my reasons
@HopingMD
Dude, I am so sorry if I implied any of those things you said above in any way. If it came off like that I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention. I am in NO WAY questioning your maturity, your work ethic, or your intention and desire to pursue medicine. I am also not saying that you would not excel or fit in at UMKC. I know that you will achieve great things if you come here and will add a lot to the program.
I am also not trying to defend my school or saying that what you post is not valid. All the points you bring up are valid and all the students who are deciding to come here, including you, should know the strengths and weaknesses of the program.