UMKC 6-year BS/MD Program

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
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@PinkPrincess2014‌

To address you comment on cadavers:
I recently learned from an attending at UMKC that Dr. Diamond the founder of the school of medicine was morally against cadavers. He didn’t think it was necessary to have cadaver dissection in order to get a good medical education (let’s not argue about that, he was a brilliant man and I’m sure he had this reasons for justifying that choice).
The council on curriculum actually was not very happy with that and somewhere along the line both the school and founder came to an agreement that UMKC would buy 3 cadavers a year and those will be used for the anatomy course.
What happens is during structure function you will get split into groups of 5-6 and go in at different times to learn from pre dissected cadavers that are dissected by Dr. Cole and Dr. Rinaldi the anatomy instructors.
Honestly I feel like that’s the best of both worlds because I don’t have to deal with all the dissection and accuracy of my skills but still get to see everything. And they are more than willing to let you play around with the cadavers as well.
If you really feel strongly that you absolutely need that experience for your education you can take a dedicated thorax and abdomen dissection or head and neck dissection course. They are both a month long and taught by the same professors who walk you through complete dissection of those areas though guided exercises and projects.
I personally don’t feel that I missed out on something big. Yea it would have been nice but when you get into the OR live tissue is much more different than preserved tissue.

@Roentgen‌

The career advising services are more for administrative purposes.

  1. If you don’t know what you want to do they set up shadowing experiences for you in up to 4 specialties of your choice. It’s a one month rotation and you can do either 1 week with 4 specialties or 2 weeks with 2 specialties.
  2. They help you with all of your applications. So VSAS for away rotations, personal statements, CV, mock interviews year 6 etc.

In terms of finding mentors and resources in the competitive specialties they might guide you in the right direction but you’re pretty much on your own.
If you wanna do primary care, they are full of fun nuggets of information just because they know from prior student exposure. But most students who do intense specialties pretty much figure it out on their own so you often get the advice “I would ask the students who matched this year to see what they did” etc.

4222

Dr. E. Grey Dimond was a great guy. There’s a lot of history with him and the starting of UMKC’s medical school back in 1971. He, Dr. Richardson Noback, and Dr. Marjorie Sirridge all contributed to making a very revolutionary school at a time when it was truly revolutionary to have any clinical experience in the first 2 years at all. Remember, back then, traditional medical schools were of the structure of 2 years of basic science coursework, mainly through lectures and exams only. No clinical exposure at all in the first 2 years. You sat at a desk, paper, pen, took notes, went to lectures, went home and studied and took exams for a straight 2 years. It was very much traditional back then to pick medical student matriculants based on premed grades and MCAT score only (that could be a good or bad thing depending on how you think of it). There’s a quote somewhere, but Dr. Diamond felt that a lot of doctors were being missed out on bc of too huge an emphasis on these characteristics.

Almost all schools incorporate some type of clinical experience/exposure in the first 2 years before clerkships now. I just think it sucks that UMKC doesn’t get the “credit” for our type of exposure with better match lists. The truth is a lot of medicine is repetition and seeing things over and over again. It’s not reading and memorizing out of books. I think residency directors sometimes don’t see that strength until after match day is over and once graduates start as interns. I also think a lot has changed since the 1970s (tuition must have been ridiculously low back then), and I think often in many areas, UMKC can be behind the ball when it comes to helping their own students when it comes to matching - which is why our alumni base is relatively weak except maybe the ones who went to UMKC in the 1970s/1980s/1990s. I also think they can be ridiculous sticklers for rules sometimes (with this “unprofessionalism” ****), but I think that has changed somewhat with people retiring, people leaving, etc. who people felt honestly held back the school in certain areas - i.e. USMLE Step 1 scores, etc. I remember we had that rule where if we didn’t turn in a certain number of evaluations, you had a letter of unprofessionalism noted on your MSPE.

In Human Structure Function, the ones who didn’t like dissecting the most in our class were people who wanted to go into Surgery or its surgical subspecialties. The truth is the best way you learn Anatomy is by dissecting, but dissecting can take quite a long time. After dissecting though, you do get an appreciation for what is superficial and what is deep, the actual size of structures which can look big in an atlas but is quite small in reality. Surgery is different when it’s a live human being, but it helps to have some foundation (IMHO), when it comes to answering Anatomy pimp questions in the OR by Surgeons who aren’t UMKC graduates and have no idea about not doing cadavers. For me, Anatomy was very difficult as a course, because of not being able to dissect, even after viewing prosections, where someone else has already done it for you and just seeing things in an atlas is just not the same. I was honestly glad when Structure Function was over when it came to Gross Anatomy.

I guess it’s a good start, @bluegrn6, espcially the getting set up with shadowing experiences part if you have no idea what you want to do. I know they’ve added that Career Counseling Center and the Wellness program, but the concept of active career advising and wellness in medical education is relatively new as a whole, which a lot of medical schools have copied each other on. I think it sucks though if you’re going for something competitive that you’re left to fend for yourself and wait to ask an upperclassmen (who you don’t know) who matched - a Year 6, when it helps to start building your CV much earlier - maybe not as a Year 1, but Year 2/3. They really should have an alumni thing where they keep those people who want to do this, their contacts like phone numbers, emails, whatever, so that students who pursue their specialties can contact them early on when you have more time.

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Yup, @Bluegrn6, I believe we were the very first class to be allowed to even have cadavers as part of our education (I guess for me that was summer 1999). They were prosected cadavers but only like about 3 and we went in as groups also. Kind of useless since there were no gross anatomy lab practicals and it’s not like they could take pictures of the cadavers and paste them on exams since exams are printed in black on white paper. I think after us, they had students buy the Lachman’s Case Studies in Anatomy book in an attempt to make the class understand about anatomy that is clinically relevant in medicine, but I’ve heard from people who had it that it’s kind of stupid as a Year 2, bc there is so much you still don’t know on how to understand and interpret a clinical case, since you haven’t had the Clinical Skills course yet to understand physical exam stuff, and you haven’t had all the other subjects (Pathology) to know what the heck is going on.

I don’t know how they reached a compromise - Gross Anatomy was taught as a summer course in Year 3 back then, but I remember a lot of us complaining about how poor our anatomical education was overall. Not necessarily a big issue if you’re going into a non-surgical/non-radiology specialty, but by far it was one of my weakest sections on USMLE Step 1. Funny that many of the same basic science professors have stayed at UMKC for over more than a decade. In my time, the professors overall weren’t very good when it came to preparing us for Step 1, but I don’t know how much that has changed. I also had Cole and Rinaldi for Anatomy as well - they were nice as people overall.

I can’t imagine going into something like ENT and not doing at least a Head and Neck elective.

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@blugrn6, does UMKC’s medical school record all basic science lectures for students to view and listen to later (i.e. Human Biochemistry 1 - Medical, Human Structure Function & Clinical Correlations, Medical Microbiology, Neurosciences, Pathology I and II, Pharmacology) or in other courses (Clinical Skills, CUES to Healing)? What about in the undergraduate level courses?

At other BS/MD programs that I interviewed at, at the medical school, in the first 2 years of basic sciences they videotape the lectures which are then posted almost immediately on their website online for medical students to be able to view on their own. Lecture class attendance is effectively optional, except for those lectures with real live patient presentations, physical exam group stuff, or small group activities.

I couldn’t find UMKC’s policy on this survey of lecturing recording by medical schools: https://www.aamc.org/download/268838/data/lecture_video_recording_and_attendance.pdf

If they don’t have this capability, or it isn’t used very often, have students tried to change this aspect of the program and get all lectures in all med school courses recorded since I’ve heard that a lot of the times the information is just so much and so dense that you’re just better off studying on your own and listening to lectures without having to physically every time show up to class.

4225

Sorry, that should say “lecture recording”, not “lecturing recording”.

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So in terms of anatomy I would say the instruction has probably improved a lot.
Anatomy is now part of the structure function series and you do each body system with each unit.
HSF 1 - musculoskeletal (back and the extremities)
HSF 2 - cardiovascular and pulmonary
HSF 3 - GI, renal, and reproductive
HSF 4 - head and neck and special senses.

They skip neurology because you get that stuff in the formal neuro course. Which I will comment on in a second.

So with each HSF unit you go see cadaver as you are learning anatomy in class. You also have to read a corresponding clinical case book that specifically focused on clinical signs of an anatomic injuries.

You also have to buy a $80 required visible human program. Basically a prisoner donated his body to science so a group of scientists used a high density saw essentially and sawed off 1 mm thin sections of his body and as they took off each mm they took a high resolution picture. CT scan style, head to toe. The program also reconstructs the whole body in 3d and you can see individual organ systems in the body itself, mark stuff, take stuff away, etc. You are kind forced to learn it because for each exam in the end there are 5-10 visible human questions. There is a slideshow with various screenshots playing on the big screens and you get a packet of pictures of those same images with your test and you have to identify all the marked labels.

If you use those resources the way you are supposed to, you will definitely be well prepared for anatomy. I personally thought anatomy was one of the best taught subjects during structure function and I remembered a lot of those concepts while I was taking step 1. I remembered learning them…whether I recalled that during the test is another question haha.

During neurology you get divided into a group of 7-10 students they literally give you an entire brain and you have to dissect it and then go show the instructor all the stuff that you were supposed to find etc. It was honestly one of the best parts of neuro and I can guess most lesions in the brain when someone pimps me because of that.

Now, younger years have been telling me that they have changed neuro a lot since I took it three years ago. So I can’t comment on its current status but I hear that HSF is pretty much unchanged.

@PinkPrincess2014‌

As for the lecture recordings your year 1 courses are all on Tegrity, the video based lecture recorder. It also depends on the instructor. Once you reach BIOCHEM that service is gone. There is always some student that will record the lecture and put it up on your classes shared Dropbox account.
I would say that going to class actually makes a difference because you can see what the instructor is pointing to and most students use the recorded lecture to re hear something they found confusing or clear up doubts from their notes.
For HSF you’re in class from 8-11ish and then again from 1-3ish. For pharm you have class 5 hours a day. Yes it’s a lot of info but if you’re not gonna go to class and watch Tegrity instead then it essentially becomes like you’re going to online school. The way I thought about it was If I’m not going to class what am I gonna do all day when all of my friends are in class? I would either be behind one day from everyone else or I would be studying when everyone else wants to hang out after class.
There are students in our class who did that but we pretty much never saw them cuz they were off schedule with us. Plus as you progress through the program you become good at screening what instructors say and weeding out information that you do and don’t need.
Again it’s my personal opinion. I think if they did record the lecture, just because of how young and lazy some of us are in the morning most of us would just not attend class.
I tried that for one week and I fell behind way too much because I was like oh my god I have a whole 10 days before the test I’m fine I can go work out today or finish the painting I started and then it’s two days before the test and you have seven lectures you still haven’t even touched and it becomes a huge mess.

In the end it doesn’t make a huge impact on your education either way unless you really struggle to take notes during class. It should be on your pro/con list but I wouldn’t make it a deciding factor if that’s the only difference you find between your two choices. Does that kinda help?

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@Bluegrn6, So classes in Year 1 (undergrad) are recorded on Tegrity, but after that it’s not, since you said it stops when you reach Biochem? - so meaning your basic sciences starting from Biochem onwards are not recorded on Tegrity (videotaping)? Sorry if I misunderstood.

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@Blugrn6, how is the quality of the Docent program which you officially start in Year 3? I’ve heard there are several good Docents that really teach well, are good mentors to students outside of school, etc. but those are ones who have been there a long time or are UMKC med school graduates. I’ve also heard that there are quite a few IMGs who end up becoming docents, mainly recent graduates from UMKC’s Internal IM program, who aren’t as good but since the school has such a difficult time keeping docents and recruiting it’s better than not having anyone.

Does an attending doctor actually take the time to teach you during clinic or during Docent Rotation from Years 3-6, or are they just too busy and leave that more to senior students? I figure I should know about how good the Docent program is since that is what is unique to UMKC by far. Is there a way to switch if you don’t click well with your initial Docent rather than be stuck for 4 years?

I’m sure some Docents are easy graders vs. others are hard graders in terms of giving Honors.

4229

Hey guys, while we’re all waiting for the 27th (thanks for the heads up @ang331), I made my own Excel spreadsheet from the AAMC website Tuition and Student Fees Report: https://services.aamc.org/tsfreports/ (Click on 2014-2015) so that you can more readily compare the tuition & fees of UMKC’s medical school to other allopathic medical schools in the country.

I took out the column for “Health Insurance Fees” (since most of us are probably covered under our parents’ health insurance plans). I then added up the Tuition column and Fees column for Residents (In-State) and Non-Residents (Out-of-State). I did it so you can compare UMKC’s tuition & fees vs. that of all medical schools, then in comparison to all private medical schools, and then in comparison to all public medical schools. There are 141 U.S. allopathic medical schools on the list currently.

I highlighted/added certain rows so it’s easier to see and compare them directly:
Yellow = Missouri public medical schools (UM-Columbia and UMKC)
Red = Public Regional medical schools (Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas, Nebraska or Oklahoma)
Green = UMKC Regional tuition (I added this row so you can see where it falls in the spectrum)

Here are the image screenshots from my spreadsheet

UMKC - All Med Schools - Arranged by In-State Tuition: http://imgur.com/ID5aUwB

UMKC - All Med Schools - Arranged by Out-of-State Tuition: http://imgur.com/UabGKsg

UMKC - Private Med Schools - Arranged by In-State Tuition: http://imgur.com/jgbyxz7 (there are some private med schools that charge lower for in-staters)

UMKC - Private Med Schools - Arranged by Out-of-State Tuition: http://imgur.com/IbRCNd6

UMKC - Public Med Schools - Arranged by In-State Tuition: http://imgur.com/nIZUxbp

UMKC - Public Med Schools - Arranged by Out-of-State Tuition: http://imgur.com/4itoC2I

I think CC, for some reason, censors the first part of the address so replace the **** with imgur (dot) com

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Great job, @PinkPrincess2014! Those charts will be really helpful for people applying to make accurate comparisons.

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One more day you guys!!! Wishing you guys the best of luck tomorrow!!! In case anyone asks (again, lol), the UMKC website says that you’ll get an email telling you your acceptance status. Much better than waiting for an envelope, I guarantee you. lol.

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Yes, good luck to all of you CCers, @advitam, @ang331, @Elliotpiano, @hopingmd, @pinkprincess2014 (I know I am missing others)! You all have been very proactive this cycle and asking really great questions about the strengths and weaknesses of the program beforehand (much more than I did by far), so you can know and can make a much more informed decision. I know you guys will be successful regardless of where you end up.

Just remember everyone that BS/MD programs are an ALTERNATIVE route, they aren’t THE route for admission into medical school.

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@advitam, @ang331, @Elliotpiano, @hopingmd, @pinkprincess2014, and all which I am missing…PRAYING FOR ALL…hope, all of 320 applicants who gets interviewed, will find their respective college carrier. All must have their second choice. And if we work hard,we can able to turn second choice into first choice.

In my reply to email, UMKC medicine said, “Decision will be send electronically by email on tomorrow, 27th April at end of business day.”

Thank you so much for being so active on this thread. We learn a LOT from your questions and answers.

If some one hurt you during this process, please forgive them. They do not have intentions to do so. THANK YOU, ALL again!

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@15match, do you know if there is a waitlist? And if so, is it a ranked waitlist based on who drops out? So if an acceptee let’s UMKC Med know that they no longer want to go, do they just go in order of the waitlist to replace that person (depending on if it is in-state, regional, or out-of-state)?

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@Roentgen UMKC maintains a ranked waitlist and will offer a position based on the ranked list if one opens up. This information is provided to those interviewed in the interview package, available online by logging in to UMKC website.

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Ah, ok, @efr009, good to know. I’m sure the acceptance/rejection/waitlist answer is purposefully being given at the end of the business day on Friday, so that they don’t receive a flurry of calls from applicants once the decision is made.

According to the timeline, http://med.umkc.edu/bamd/timeline/, it looks like applicants who are accepted have until May 1st to accept. Whoever doesn’t accept by May 1, they then turn to the ranked waitlist (probably have an in-state list, regional list, and out-of-state list), to get back to the full class size, and to keep the same proportions between all 3 groups.

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@Roentgen‌, I was looking at the posts from last year and saw many comments by you that warned against UMKC and the restriction the program places one under for getting top residencies. I was curious if you still feel that way. Can you please give me like a quick run down of how UMKC would possibly stifle my chances for pursuing a top residency? I have not gotten in or anything but was just wondering if I should seriously start thinking about the traditional route. Thank You!

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I received an acceptance letter through email today! :slight_smile: anyone else?

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@jjbinks295‌ CONGRATS!!!

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Congrats @jjbinks295‌ ! If u don’t mind me asking, could u please share your stats and if you were in state or not? Thanks!