Hey @Puplover3, this is the data that I had from links that I was able to find: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19494705/#Comment_19494705. The SDN thread won’t be very helpful to BA/MD students as that’s for MD only students (those who have already completed a Bachelor’s degree), who make up for lost attrition.
@Roentgen I just saw your post, and I am in shock. Do you know why this information is not released anywhere else? It is concerning that attrition rates are so high in comparison to traditional 4 year medical schools. Do you know where one can find updated stats though? I was looking at UMKC School of Medicine’s Facebook page, specifically at current classes. With some of the current classes, I think it is fair to assume the attrition rate has gone up. For the class of 2021, I counted 12 MD-only students. For the class of 2022, I counted 20 MD-only students. Since the number of MD only students went up, does this mean the attrition rate went up as well? I also know that a total of 27 students (including MD only students) extended in the class of 2022 (by extended I mean left the program or joined the class below). I consider this a pretty high number, but what is your opinion?
@Roentgen So I was looking at all the Facebook albums. When looking at the ceremony albums, one realizes that the number of students stays relatively the same, but so many faces have changed. And you wonder, is it the same people? If you try locating some students who appear in Year 1 Indoctrination photos, they are nowhere to be seen at Year 3 White Coat Ceremony photos. So many lively faces from Year 1 Indoctrination are nowhere to be seen. What happened there? I find this very sad and suspicious. Maybe the LCME should investigate this?
So that data/information is publicly released by the school in academic journals. Probably not good to use data from year to year just bc it can fluctuate so much hence why they used about 35 years of data in that journal article which published in 2007. Most med schools won’t come out and tell you about attrition (since people are trying to find out more about the inner workings of the program, rather than leaving it), it’s something you have to ask as an applicant when evaluating med schools: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19349069#Comment_19349069.
That 21% attrition figure is data from 1970-2005 (I believe the UMKC med school opened in like 1971). Keep in mind that this is an AVERAGE. Some years it may be less, other years it may be higher, in terms of the percentage that fully leave anytime during the 6 year program. Keep in mind that Years 1-2 are considered the “undergraduate” portion of the program, at least for financial aid purposes, which is why the LCME isn’t really involved w/data at that point.
Extension (graduating in 7 years) does not count as attrition. Attrition at the Years 3-6 level (the 4 years of “med school part” which the LCME would have actual jurisdiction over) was about 4.8% in one data set, and 6-8% in some other data set in that powerpoint, which is close to the 4% attrition level at traditional 4 year medical schools, although slightly higher.
What happens is at the Year 2 spring semester level when HSF starts, the school makes up for any previous attrition that occurred in the Years 1-2 time period and essentially replaces that attrition with MD-only students who have completed a Bachelor’s degree (traditional applicants). So it brings the total number in the class back up to where it was at Year 1.
It very recently came to my attention that several students who are currently third and fourth years have owned fake IDs and go to bars in the Westport area using these fake IDs. Videos were submitted to KC CrimeStoppers. Is the school doing anything about this as well?
It very recently came to my attention that several students who are currently third and fourth years have owned fake IDs and go to bars in the Westport area using these fake IDs. Videos were submitted to KC CrimeStoppers. Is the school doing anything about this as well?
@roos2001, Year 3s (who would be turning age 21) and Year 4s (who would be turning age 22), likely have no need for fake IDs since 21 is of legal drinking age.
Right, but several of the reported students have been drinking at these bars over the years. Again, I am just wondering if the school plans to address this issue as well. The KCMO police already know about the issue.
If there are assertions of past infractions before legal age, they’d have to show actual evidence of that. This specific scenario (based on the info. given) is more of a law enforcement/legal issue, outside of the purview of an educational institution (unlike say if this was a Title IX issue). Now if there were convictions (I don’t know Missouri law so I don’t know if this would be a misdemeanor or felony & this is before any plea bargaining), that would be different in terms of the educational realm & even then I’m sure there are FERPA law considerations w/respect to discussing it. I imagine the school would only address this directly w/the student body if it’s a pervasive issue.
I believe it is a pervasive issue especially with those students in Greek life. A fraternity with several med students was recently removed from the campus. I imagine that has something to do with all this. Here is the link- https://info.umkc.edu/unews/beta-theta-pi-allegedly-removed-from-campus/
Sorry, I meant to say it would be addressed if it was a pervasive issue within the School of Medicine specific student body itself. Meaning if that incident is happening frequently with a huge majority among BA/MD students. Fraternities and sororities are accountable to the undergraduate UMKC Volker campus as they’re undergraduate organizations. The School of Medicine has no role to play in overseeing that, even if some of our BA/MD students might join as members, which I believe you can join for a max of 4 years, & after that you go into alumni status.
Unless things have vastly changed, most of the School of Medicine student body does not join social fraternities like Beta Theta Pi, Chi Omega, etc. (service fraternities like Alpha Phi Omega are a separate category) I think in many ways, BA/MD students initially join these particular organizations to try to recreate the “feel” of a normal undergraduate experience, but it tends to fall pretty short of achieving that, not just bc of the way the BA/MD curriculum is structured but bc UMKC is more of a commuter school, rather than your typical state public flagship university (i.e. Mizzou).
Any suggestions on how to go about with a petition for a change in residency status from out-of-state to in-state? I know 3 years ago someone posted on CC the requirements and mentioned kids were successful. Wondering if anyone has been successful recently? Was a lawyer or accountant needed?
Great News - UMKC SOM Accredited till 2025-2026!
@Roentgen if one wanted to file a formal complaint beyond administration of this program, do you know how he/she could go about it? I’ve considered filing a complaint with the LCME but it’s truly unfortunate that one cannot file complaints anonymously. I find that very strange in the way that there seems to be no way for students to provide this school as well as many of its students with negative feedback and bring out the wrong umkc som has done to several people without showing up on the radar. I saw your ten reasons post (http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/multiple-degree-programs/857504-mo-medical-schools-umkc-slu-mu-any-current-students-or-past-grads.html). You made a lot of good points and I think prospective students have a right to know about all this. If I had known, I would have never bothered with applying to this overglorified program in the first place. It is indeed a scam.
@puplover3, nope, the only way is through the LCME. The LCME has direct purview over all allopathic medical schools in the country. In medical school, there are evaluations you do for each course and rotation thru the school, but the AAMC also has students do surveys as well, the most notable being the Graduation Questionnaire (GQ): https://www.aamc.org/data/gq/. That post was from 2010, so I’m sure some of those things might be a little dated. The best way for applicants to find out about the program is talking with former alumni, talking with current students (and not just in the first 2 years but in the entire spectrum from Years 1-6), etc. I discuss that more here: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19465274#Comment_19465274.
Prospective students should do good research on all Bachelor/MD programs, but I guess that’s why forums like these exist to help in that process, as often times it can be hard to know what to ask as a high school senior about programs like these and about medical school in general.
Hey @plantar, I’m not really sure in terms of those who were successful, but start here where you can find the residency petition that everyone has to fill out when applying: https://www.umkc.edu/residency/
@Roentgen yeah that is very unfortunate because they do not guarantee confidentiality. So basically, a student cannot complain about the program within the first two years. I agree that students should talk to alumni and current students, but I think it’s important for prospective students to talk to current students who have extended, taken a medical leave, taken a personal leave, etc because life can happen and sadly, with this program there are consequences if life happens. I’m going to write up a similar list to yours as a student who withdrew from this program in very good academic standing due to medical reasons. I have several reasons why I wouldn’t recommend this program to anyone and these reasons are not easily visible to students unless they dig deep into the school’s policies which no high school student would probably do. They are also based on experiences I had with my particular class (class of 2022) and professors. The unprofessionalism I witnessed was extremely concerning, but I will discuss that in more detail. Hence, this is why I’m opposed to this program and believe it is a scam. Stats are stats. With my particular class, within the first two years I knew at least 27 students extended and/or withdrew. That number is pretty alarming to me.
Also, what the other posts mentioned about underage drinking are true. Several students from my former class have gone to bars using fake IDs. They have openly posted videos of themselves at these bars on social media throughout the past few years.
@puplover3, so the first 2 years of the program, are more considered the “undergraduate” years of the combined program (that’s also true for financial aid purposes of the program). You’re not really a “professional” student just yet. I realize students take Year 1 & 2 Docent, LBMS, Med Term, Biochem & HSF, the latter 2 courses of which are both at the med school basic science level, but once students hit Hospital Hill for the least 4 years starting that Year 3 summer with HSF IV (like traditional 4 year medical schools), that’s when the LCME really takes over.
I’ve always recommended on this thread that students talk to as many current students as they can in the program & who aren’t just Peer Mentors (as this is a self-selected group and those who are either having trouble or hate the program, aren’t going to necessarily be people who volunteer for that activity: http://med.umkc.edu/sa/peer-mentors/). It’s no disrespect to them at all. I’d say they’re great in terms of information. However, if as an applicant you’re looking for a huge variety/spectrum of experiences that aren’t necessarily all rosy & positive, you’d want to expand your circle of current students you talk to.
I would say incoming BA/MD students themselves are in a very awkward situation while going through this program that may not be appreciated by students initially. We come in at the age of normal undergraduate students after high school, yet at the same time are expected to behave like med students who are 22 and older. I’ve always said that in many ways this 6 year combined program forces students to grow up even faster than what they normally would in a traditional 4+4 with a normal undergraduate experience. Although I’ve heard KC has vastly improved from when I was there, there isn’t as much stuff to do in KC when comparing to other major Top 10 population cities. Combine that with the program being year round, the winter snow weather which seems to last forever sometimes, I do think it can very much wear & tear on students esp. over 6 years where it feels like all you’re doing is studying so students are desperate to find a real work-life balance in the program. It’s also what you make of it as well, and we all come from and bring different life experiences to the program, so a lot of it also has to do with one’s expectations also. I’ve had classmates who’ve participated in the same things you guys are talking about and they all ended up fine now and are practicing medicine. We’re all human & thus make mistakes and we all (or most) eventually grow up, mature, and see the errors of our ways. That’s hard to see sometimes in the program where you’re constantly w/the same group of people & over the years you all work each other’s nerves sometimes.
On a more personal opinion, I do think the curriculum, especially in the first 2 years, needs to be revamped so that students feel prepared for more advanced coursework & that they take a better variety of undergraduate courses (Arts and Sciences Department courses) just to be a more well-rounded student, not just in the sciences. I think over the years, that focus has sort of been pushed to the side to make everything “fit”.
I’m more than happy for current students and former students who leave the program to come back to this thread and tell their experiences they’ve had to future applicants, so the more the merrier.
@Roentgen actually, you’re wrong. You are a professional student upon entering the program. It is said on the website that upon entry into the program, you are a “PROFESSIONAL” student, meaning medical student. This is why If you want to transfer out of the program (during the first two years) to an undergrad university and then apply to med school, you would have to apply as a reapplicant, even if it is within the first two years. I am saying this because this is what I was told when I withdrew from the program. My ETC told me that if I were to apply to medical school down the road I would have to apply as a reapplicant. I withdrew as a year 2 student, so if I have to “reapply” if I were to choose medical school again, clearly the first two years count as professional. And like I said, the dean of student affairs told me you are a professional student once you join the program.
I think that’s up for debate. I find it ironic though since this program emphasizes professionalism while over 40 students from the class of 2022 have owned fake IDs and partied at bars. And there is more than owning fake IDs. Several students have taken part in cyberbullying through group me chats. Additionally the dean for year 1 and 2 students had to speak to this class on two occasions. But back to my main point, you most definitely are a professional student when you join the program. I was told this after I had several meetings with different administrative faculty members. The first two years are called medical undergrad and the last four years are medical professional. They do this for financial reasons (this is what I was told by faculty, so you need to check your information again.) Also, I am in no way trying to come off as rude, but like you said, I’d like to give my experiences and opinions because I think they matter and could possibly help someone considering this school. This program is, in my opinion, overall best suited for aggressive, selfish, cut throat students. As a student in the program I witnessed and discovered too many flaws with the students, faculty, and policies themselves.