Thank you so much for the clarification!
Hi @Roentgen
My daughter got waitlisted to the BS/MD program. Should she send an email to UMKC talking about her continued interest? Is it too late to do anything about it now?
Hello deudice,
I have been a parent on the sidelines for a while. I joined today just to answer your question.
My daughter had gained admission to UMKC BA-MD this year and has just today let the admission committee know that she is declining this offer. She will be attending a top tier undergrad institution instead not far from where we live. We have mixed feelings since UMKC offered a more direct route and she liked the people during the UMKC BA/MD MMI interview which she very much enjoyed and in which she apparently performed well.
This was by no means an easy decision and all of us , including my daughter feel somewhat sad having to let go. Nonetheless with deadlines approaching she chose the more traditional route and her decision is final .
So yes, I suggest your daughter send an email to UMKC talking about her continued interest because I presume a spot just opened up.
All the best to your daughter !
Hey @deudice, you can see how the waitlist works here:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/22691230/#Comment_22691230
The waitlist process is pretty organized and already set in stone in terms of procedure (it’s a ranked waitlist, but they no longer tell students where they are on that waitlist for each applicant pool), so I don’t think a letter of interest will change any of that, but you could always try and send it anyways.
Hi everyone. I’m a graduating student in the BA/MD program. I was a regional applicant who was accepted off the waitlist. I just matched at a nationally top-ranked program in a competitive surgical specialty. I would describe myself as a very good student, having 99th percentile board scores, a near 4.0 GPA, and selection for an honor society. I want to give my thoughts on some of the discussion here, as I know how much I relied on this forum when I was applying. There is a lot of misinformation thrown around, simply because it’s hard to know what happens in the program unless you are in it. I would add that these feelings are generally pervasive among my fellow students.
Who should join this program? If you are someone in the midwest whose ultimate goal is primary care and/or a non-surgical specialty in your community, this program is GREAT for you. There are wonderful clinical opportunities to build your patient interaction skills and clinical decision -making. I would add that this is even better if you are not concerned about the tier of program you match into.
But, here is my top-liner, after six grueling years here: I would avoid this program like the plague. Why? I’ll give my list of reasons, which I can expand upon in the comment section if anyone wants me to.
Undergraduate coursework - The undergraduate coursework is designed to graduate you with a BLA as soon as possible. This can sound like a blessing to interested students, but trust me in saying that THIS IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT. Despite what many say, there is value to an undergraduate education and exploring a major/area of interest that you genuinely care about.
Community - you are stuck with the same 100 people for six years. This gives you an opportunities to build friendships and relationships, but understand that these are your formative years. These are the years you are supposed to be exploring different social circles and building a network. Every student here is exhausted by the fourth year, in part because of the routine of seeing the same people in the same environment for so long. You are also stuck in Kansas City. It’s a great city, but can get exhausting/boring after a while. I don’t think it’s healthy to be in a situation like that, and it is the reason that most people here can’t wait to get out by the latter half of the program. If you do not build many friendships your first year, you are essentially out of luck.
Attrition - I think the attrition rate is a bit overstated, as many people like to say that >20% of the class drops out. It’s not anywhere near this rate, but there are a good amount of people that extend into the class below. Attrition only really happens in the first few years when students decide they did not want to do medicine. The problem here is that extending a year strongly diminishes your chance of matching into competitive specialties, and diminishes your chances of matching into top programs in non-competitive specialties.
Preclinical Coursework - the preclinical coursework is incredibly subpar. You will have to prepare for the board examinations on your own, without help from your lectures. It’s a reason most medical students at UMKC and across the country skip class. The school recently instituted mandatory attendance in several classes to compensate for this, which is just a drag on the students who would learn much better at home. You are taught by professors with no clinical experience and no understanding of what is important on the board examinations.
Faculty/Mentoring - is fine. The docent system is a highlight of the program. It gives you a strong mentor. The faculty themselves are variable. Some docents are excellent, while others appear like they don’t even want to be there.
Facilities - do not come here if you want a modern-appearing school. The entire medical school feels like a prison. The units have not been updated in decades. The exception is two units that are fully modernized, and these are the units they will advertise on tours, while not showing the other downtrodden units. There are no plans to update the other units.
Diversity - this is a small point not applicable to everyone, but it’s personal to me because I’m an underrepresented minority. The resources for diversity outreach and community-building is minimal, although the school does genuinely try. There is not much diversity in the student base or faculty themselves.
Clinicals - there is a big focus on IM training here, with four years of weekly clinic and six months of inpatient IM. This is great for my friends applying IM. If you don’t apply IM (like me), you are severely disadvantaged compared to other students around the country. There is no ability to substitute some of the extra IM rotations for rotations in your area of interest. This became a real problem my final year for myself and other students who were applying surgical specialties, but were unable to move our mandatory IM rotation, making it more difficult to acquire letters of recommendation. Other than IM, the training is pretty poor across the board. Surgical training is especially poor here.
Specialties - there are certain specialties that are very difficult to access from UMKC, for the reason that there is no home program here to advocate for you. This includes ENT, Plastic Surgery, Dermatology, Neurosurgery, and some other competitive specialties. This essentially places the onus on the student alone to do away rotations and find a department nationally to advocate for you. Most medical schools have these departments, which provides other students an edge immediately.
Reputation/Prestige - Contrary to what you are told, not all medical schools are the same. There is a rumor that circulates among pre-meds that any MD school can get you where you need to go. This is false. The name of your school matters quite a bit, and understand that if you come to UMKC, you are coming to the lowest-ranked (or near lowest-ranked) MD school in the country. This is a big deal when you are applying for residency, especially in non-IM specialties. Students from decently known schools immediately have an advantage in who receives interviews, and UMKC students often receive the leftover/waitlist spots. If you are applying a super competitive specialty, you oftentimes have to take 1-2 additional gap years to do research and buff your CV to compensate. This explains the subpar match list that seems to be getting worse and worse every year. There are simply many medical schools that are better known and have administrative infrastructure in place to reach out for students to secure interviews, which is not the case at UMKC. In order to access top programs from UMKC, you really have to be in the upper echelon of students (AOA) and vastly outperform your fellow residency interviewees in board scores/letters to secure the same interviews. Do people still match at great places? Yes, this year’s match list had very well-known and high-ranked programs on there in Pediatrics, Internal Medicine, EM, Ophthalmology, Anesthesiology, and Orthopedics. But, these students had to do MORE than their fellow applicants in other schools to create a level playing field.
Continued:
Difficulty - it’s HARD. A lot of the coursework itself is easy, but understand what you are doing by entering this program. You are locking yourself into six years with minimal breaks. You are putting six years of your life on hold, only to jump into residency/fellowship which are even more busy. I think the biggest indicator of the program is the general atmosphere among students in the final years of the program. Students are burnt out, exhausted, and they count down the days to leave as soon as possible.
Age - it matters. You will be asked in residency interviews why they should consider someone so young, with so little life experience compared to other applicants who are oftentimes 27-30 years old at minimum. This is what I was speaking to earlier regarding the value of undergraduate education. Can you blame them? Why would they want a 24 year old who didn’t even complete a real undergraduate major, compared to a 28 year old with many more valuable life experiences?
A lot of this is hidden from the high school applicants. This is partly because they wouldn’t understand it, but also because the school knows its shortcomings in these areas any many more. I can’t name all the frustrations I have had, and this is just a short list of the big topics. Understand that this program, above everything else, is essentially a shortcut to becoming a doctor. 99% of medical students go the conventional route, and you are bypassing that system entirely. Ask yourself if you really want to take a shortcut with the biggest decision of your life, knowing that your 18-year-old self may not align with your 24-year-old self. In the end, two years saved is NOT that important. If you are smart enough to succeed at UMKC, you are smart enough to go the conventional route, gain life experiences, and go to a school that values you and will suit your life goals. Would I do it again, knowing all of this? No, probably not. I would advise any gifted high school student to go the normal route, explore a major they enjoy, gain a strong social circle in your undergraduate years, and work hard to go to a stronger medical school.
And finally, to the parents on here that are pushing their students to this program: Understand that this is a grueling experience. It involves six hard years with minimal breaks and lots of stressors. You will not see your kid as much as you will like to. Understand that there is no going back. If your student discovers they are not actually interested in medicine, and decide the program is not right for them, they will have to start over with their undergraduate coursework to pursue a new degree. Understand that an undergraduate education has true value, and that there are many ways to get into medical school without an accelerated route. Do not push your kids into this program, as this is a decision that will stay with the student for their entire life.
Happy to answer any questions.
Current student here. Wanted to comment here and mention that this is likely to be the case moving forward, in terms of AOA’s importance in the match. As you said, almost all of the strong matches this year were from AOA students. This is not happening at just UMKC, but at most low-tier MD schools. This is several reasons. As you mentioned, more MD schools are added every year while residency spots are not similarly expanded. Applicants apply to an overabundance of programs which saturates available interviews, limiting students from lower-tier schools. Applicants themselves across the board are getting more competitive. All of this to say, from a school like UMKC, AOA will be important.
Hey @vastax105,
Thank you SO MUCH for your very detailed and comprehensive post on different aspects of the entirety of your experience in the UMKC 6 year BA/MD program, for your added context to my 2020 match list analysis post, and taking the time to come back to the CC forum to contribute. It is invaluable to high school seniors (who are currently weighing whether to do this BA/MD program vs. doing another Bachelor/MD [if one is lucky enough to have another acceptance] vs. doing the traditional route) to have current students weigh in, especially those who have the vantage point that you have, at the end of the program.
Contrary to how this combined BA/MD program may be often seen/portrayed in high school as a “straight shot”, the jump from age 18 to age 24 is a HUGE period of growth (just in general, regardless of whether one does a BA/MD program or not). It’s something that I think even the best of high school students aren’t necessarily prepared for or can fully appreciate in advance, just because people in this program, for the most part, tend to be more conscientious, ambitious, & driven, but don’t necessarily have much prior life experience for context & perspective. As you mentioned, I do think this program & medical school is made for a particular niche of med student, but it’s very hard to know in advance if that applies to you, as goals & specialty selection can drastically change.
I’ve always told people that if your sole reasons for doing this BA/MD program is that it’s 6 years and you don’t have to take the MCAT, you’re likely going to end up being very disappointed by the end, especially if you’re not paying in-state med school tuition. There are quite a few compromises that you have to make very early on by doing this program (many of which you have listed), and it isn’t always worth it in the end, vs. having done the traditional route.
I really hope students AND parents take the time to read your posts in full and also tag you on any questions that they may have for your added perspective. It’s funny to see now even 10 years later, how many aspects of your post resonated with me and my BA/MD class. And it’s something that really stands out a lot more when you’re doing internship/residency outside of UMKC, especially if you’re at a program that has a directly attached university/academic traditional 4 year medical school.
I’ve been offered admission to the 6-year program at UMKC but I’m heavily considering going to a pretty good school for undergrad instead and applying for med school the normal way. Will they still allow me to cancel my admission even when it’s past May 1?
Oops forgot to @ you guys. @Roentgen @vastax105 ^^^^
Have you definitely decided not to attend or are you still deciding?
So May 1st (often called National College Decision Day) is the deadline that UMKC has to hear by from those who have gotten an offer. On the national level, it’s the date that all high school students (regardless of special programs) have to make a decision by on undergraduate offers.
After May 1st, if you still haven’t officially told UMKC your decision, there is a possibility that offer would then be rescinded by them unilaterally & that spot would enter the waitlist pool. So I guess what I’m saying is they’re not going to hold it for very long past that May 1st date, just bc the application timeline goes on to those on the waitlist.
Congratulations to you on whichever decision you decide to make (and there isn’t one right answer), I know how nervewracking it can be. If you need any additional personal guidance, you can also PM me, and I’m sure @vastax105 would be happy to give you advice as well if needed.
I’ve officially accepted my offer but I recently started rethinking my decision and now I’m leaning towards the traditional route. I’m still waiting on some financial aid info from the other university I’m interested in but it may be mid June before I receive that. Will they allow me to change my mind at that point and would that affect my application status into medical school in the future? (Would that make me a previous matriculant in a medical school?)
I meant To type mid may not June ^^^ @Roentgen
Hey @choosy2020,
I just sent you a PM.
Hi @vastax105 ,
Thank you for your honest comments. My S has accepted the UMKC 6 year program after much deliberation of conventional versus the accelerated path. He did really want the 4 year undergraduate experience but he also liked the guaranteed acceptance to medical school and the financial advantages (in state tuition, bright flight etc).
Given all the shortcomings of the program that you listed, can you give advice to incoming students as to how to best navigate the program, what they can do to not get burnt out and perform well in the program. Is there anything he can do this summer to prepare him for the rigor of the program.
He has been chatting with peer mentors but I am not sure if they are upper classmen. It would be good to get advice from graduating students since you have successfully navigated the system.
I would not do anything this summer. There is no reason to try to prepare for the rigors of the program. He will learn how to handle the rigor as he goes. Frankly, I think burnout in this program is inevitable for everyone. That is just a result of being in the same program for six years. @Roentgen also said his class felt much of the same way my class is feeling regarding exhaustion and burnout in the latter half of the program. I would recommend that your son enjoy this summer (as it will be his last extended break for likely the rest of his life), travel if he can, and work on making good friendships/relationships in his first year. The worst thing he can do is to socially hermit and focus solely on school during his undergraduate years. His social network will matter far greater than any academic preparation. Part of this responsibility is on you as the parent to not hover over him, and allow him to make his own decisions in terms of studying, career goals, friendships, dating, independence, finances, etc.
One thing I did not mention in my prior post that I think is important - the USMLE Step 1 examination is moving toward pass/fail in the next couple years, and I believe Step 2 will follow shortly after. This will greatly hurt UMKC students’ ability to set themselves apart from other applicants when applying for residency, but will reduce a lot of stress in the later years.
Hello @Diagnosis
I really appreciate your response. Congrats to your daughter for being accepted! I’m glad she made a decision that’s right for her. Also, thank you for your insight. I’ll definitely have my daughter send an email today.
Hello@Diagnosis
I wonder if your daughter is in-state or regional or out of state?
Hey @wichita,
I can’t emphasize this part of @vastax105’s post enough. I know BA/MD students who make this common mistake initially when they first arrive at UMKC (and everyone in the program is nervous when they first come to the dorms dropped off by their parents bc it’s a totally new environment for everyone) and end up really regretting it later - it impacts their overall mental health/propensity for burnout, it can impact their academic performance, it impacts their relationships with others in their BA/MD class, which can be hard to build later when you’ve isolated yourself in Years 1 & 2. This BA/MD program is not something that you can go at alone, full speed ahead, in isolation, even for the most accomplished & brainiac of students.
Any “studying ahead” to “prepare” for Year 1 of the BA/MD program is usually minimal/negligible, in terms of perceived benefit, after the first “Baby Anatomy” (Year 1 undergraduate level Anatomy) exam, so you’re really better off making the most of your summer with rest & relaxation, especially after many of you have worked really hard non-stop these last 4 years of high school, in academics & accomplishments. I realize right now a lot of you are at home because school has been cancelled due to COVID-19.
@vastax105 would you say that most of your classmates are happy they chose UMKC or are there a lot who wish they would have just gone the normal route?