UMKC is a straight shot with a clear schedule for the next 6-years whereas the normal route has more options to choose such as 18,000 plus medical seats to choose in different Medical schools and a lot less expensive unless you are an in-state student. In brief, you have more options to pick your choice in the normal route
Are you a in-state or OOS?
@msr6601 I’m in-state but I’ve been offered a scholarship from another university which would make the costs around the same for either school. But I’m just on the fence between settling for UMKC (which might limit my chances for competitive residencies as mentioned by others previously) or going the traditional route and risking not getting into medical school (although this route would open the possibility of going to an even better medical school). Thoughts?
@choosy2020 That’s a most important factor to be considered whether you want to do primary care residencies (IM, Family practice, OBGYN, paediatrics) or specialities (Urology, Ortho, Neurosurgery, ENT, Opthal. Radiology). All your efforts are future career investments.
I would like to correct the total number of medical school seats available are 21, 622 in 2019 per AAMC. I am not interested in waitlist or influence your decision as my son has already accepted his choice.
My personal opinion is to “accept the UMKC” and start working on your choice of residencies.
I’d say more than half of my class is exhausted and ready to move on. This was readily apparently following Step 1 at the beginning of the fifth year, when everyone was expressing that they were tired and burnt out of being at the same program for so long. Most people have just been getting by through pure grit the past two years. I am sure @Roentgen can speak to his experience on this front when he was a student.
Like I and Roentgen have mentioned, there is a certain subset of students that this program really does do a lot of good for. This is notably students that are in-state (for the financial benefit) that are interested in non-competitive fields and plan to practice in Missouri/Kansas or regionally. For these students, this program is an excellent shortcut to that path and is very manageable.
However, this program is not well suited to students that are interested in very competitive fields or very competitive programs. Looking at the match list this year, there were 10-12 students that matched into very competitive fields or very competitive specialties. Off the top of my head, we had an Orthopedics at a top 10 program (Pittsburgh), Emergency at the #1 program (Harvard), Anesthesia at the #1 program (Harvard), Ophthalmology at the #1 program in the country, Int Medicine at two top 10 programs (Michigan and Mayo Clinic), and several Derm and Urology matches. What you have to keep in mind is that these students matching at these institutions had to work EXTREMELY hard compared to their counterparts at other medical schools, often because UMKC simply does not have the necessary departments to advocate for students and provide clinical experiences. This is why many students are tired; you are constantly fighting an uphill battle in every aspect of the medical education process against forces you can not control.
I am OOS (regional, to be accurate).
I wanted to comment on your statement that “UMKC is a straight shot with a clear schedule.” This is not really true, and is not how incoming students should view this program. As @Roentgen has said, you will be very disappointed if your only motivation for attending UMKC is that it bypasses the medical school admission process. There are many additional headaches and barriers to overcome from coming here. Going the normal route not only gives you more options for which school to attend, but also gives you life experience and maturity in your undergraduate years and more flexibility and career opportunities with your residency/specialty of choice.
@vastax105 How would you weigh the choice between going to UMKC (and possibly having a tough time getting into your desired specialty) vs. going the traditional route (and possibly having a tough time getting into a good medical school)? This is where my mind is at the moment and I’m STRUGGLING with this decision. I’ve read statements like “If you can get into a BS/MD program out of high school, you can get into medical school the normal route,” but it’s just so tough to really weigh the options.
Hey, I am also a graduating student at UMKC Med. Matched into a competitive specialty.
If I were in your shoes, I would go the traditional route. I agree with much of what @vastax105 has said (with a few exceptions). He/she is spot-on about the difficulty/burnout, inability to have personal growth which would normally be gained through an undergraduate pathway, and the difficulty obtaining interviews for competitive specialties. If your traditional pathway option is a decently known undergraduate school, I would go in a heartbeat and work really hard to get into medical school the normal way. You will thank yourself for taking the risk.
I’d advise otherwise. As said above, you have much more to gain through going the traditional route, even if it adds the stress of getting into medical school. If you are smart enough to succeed at UMKC, you are smart enough to do well on the MCAT.
I should warn anyone that reads this thread that this is not how you should think about the medical school admission process. There is no way to know as an 18 y/o what your choice of specialty will be. 90% of students change their specialty of choice multiple times. You should not go into medical school assuming you will only do one thing, but rather you should look to keep your options as open as possible.
I want to mention one other thing that is important: there is more to life than medical school. @vastax105 and @Roentgen alluded to this. 18 to 25 are your formative years where you are meant to move around, create friendships, and explore your personal interests. Going into UMKC as an 18 year old and being dead-set on working toward a competitive specialty is a surefire way to burn out and hate your life. Understand that by going the traditional route, you will be preserving those intangible aspects of life that are lost by staying at UMKC. This is a point that is probably lost on many parents in this thread who are first and foremost concerned about their kid’s academic success, but not their personal and emotional success.
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I totally agree with what @cardboardvase has said here (and welcome to the thread, @cardboardvase! Really appreciate you coming here & taking the time to help out students and parents on CC answering questions).
The MCAT is just one in a huge consecutive series of progressively more complex standardized exams you’ll take (MCAT, NBME subject exams (commonly known as “shelf” exams), USMLE Step 1, USMLE Step 2 CK, USMLE Step 2 CS, USMLE Step 3, In-training exams during residency, Specialty & Subspecialty (if you decide to do fellowship) board exams, Maintenance of Certification exams, etc.), so it really doesn’t make as much sense to think that somehow skipping that one exam at the bottom of the totem pole in difficulty, means you’re home scot-free w/smooth sailing here on out.
Whatever perceived problems you’ve assigned to the normal traditional pathway in your head are just going to be replaced by a new set of problems when you enter as a Year 1 at UMKC on the Volker campus, and you’re doing all this while being in the age range of 18-25 in a program that runs year round.
The calculus would be different if the equation was say the Bachelor/MD program at Boston University, Northwestern, Case Western, Miami (which stopped taking students a few years ago) or Brown. As these all are all at higher ranked undergrads & higher ranked medical schools with more resources w/an easier escape hatch if you were to change your mind. They also have normal summer breaks. They also have a very clear & discrete separation between the undergraduate portion & the medical school portion (unlike UMKC where you’re effectively hopping into medical school level basic science coursework of Biochem & Gross Anatomy/Physiology as a college sophomore).
If it tells you anything, back when I applied, there were several 6 year Bachelor/MD programs: UMKC, NEOUCOM (now NEOMED), U of Miami, and Penn State (w/Jefferson Medical College, now Sidney Kimmel Medical College). The only 6 year program left now is UMKC. It’s a concept that has slowly fallen out of favor since the 1960s & 1970s because of just how complex and different sets of skills modern medicine practice requires now.
The medical specialty selection process during medical school is a complex decision making process and it’s often not one you can get just by reading about it or internet searching. There’s a reason medical students shadow in the first 2 years, and do required & elective rotations to better help get a feel for how the specialty is like, not just as a med student, but in attending practice (although in academic medicine). As a Year 1 BA/MD student you’ll have niches & interests and areas that appeal to you, but you’re not going to know what specialty you 100% want to do and shoot for, outside of preconceived notions, which often end up being false.
I totally agree with this sentiment too from @cardboardvase:
I’d also add those are the people EVERYONE hates in the BA/MD class and not bc of work ethic or inherent jealousy. Those people tend to be very hyperfocused, high-strung, hypercompetitive, & can really start getting on people’s nerves, which can definitely lead to isolation (which is caustic in Year 5 required clinical clerkships) & increased mental health burden & burnout, especially in a program like this where there is already some risk of burnout just at baseline for even the best of students. And after all that, it’s not necessarily even the formula to success.
The UMKC 6 year program is very much a marathon, not a sprint, in so many ways.
Thanks everyone for your valuable Inputs. My child has made the decision to join UMKC starting this fall. Merely 3-4% of students going the traditional route make it to medical schools. Also the difficult level of ORMs is much more to get into the medical schools if you go through the traditional route. Its a known fact. What I have observed is that a significant number of kids who chose the traditional route either lost interest, or went to the a undergrad school where maintaining GPA was an issue or whatever the reason was, didn’t end up going to medical schools. In addition there are several factors that will make it easier or harder to get into medical schools in the traditional route. Ex, kids who are focused in the traditional route will also not have any summers free as they would be busy building up their resume doing meaningful ECs like research, volunteering and shadowing. In addition they will also have to prepare for the MCATs during the same time so I fail to understand how motivated kids will have their summers all relaxed. Further your challenges will be different if you are an ORM or an URM and hence your opinion/experience will be different too.
So if a child’s goal is to be a doctor for sure, then taking a risk at UMKC and working your way up is not a bad option. I agree it may not be the best but definitely its not the worst. It was tough for us to make the decision especially seeing so much of negative comments but we directly spoke to a few kids that are currently in the program who told us all the facts both positive and negative and tips on how to overcome difficulties that students faced along the way. I would appreciate if the seniors gave some tips on how to overcome some of the challenges that they faced throughout the program especially for those who have committed or made up their mind to join the program. Also Talk to a few kids who have made it/or not made it through the traditional route and understand their challenges as well.
In conclusion there is not one single formula that can be applied to all the kids because each one is unique due to their circumstances, their capability, and their personality etc. No Program is free of risks. Same is with UMKC. You will have to note down the risks and evaluate them for both, traditional and an BA/MD program and access which ones you are ready to take on. But merely not having to take MCAT should not be the reason to join UMKC.
In 2016, 40% of first-year medical school applicants were accepted into at least one medical school.
https://www.bls.gov/careeroutlook/2017/article/premed.htm
Keep in mind that premed is not an undergraduate major. It’s a career track. There are a variety of good reasons that students leave the premed track to pursue other interests (whether that’s in another profession in healthcare or not) and it’s not all due to having been “weeded out.” I don’t know where you’re getting the 3-4% figure, but from what I’ve Googled, it’s closer to 17% (we’re talking about all undergraduates who enter freshman year as declared premeds and in four years actually end up applying for med school in the senior year, and getting an offer from at least one medical school).
I’ll leave out my responses to you with regards to the magnitude that affirmative action plays in medical school admissions in filling the class and the summers of a premed, as I think that is being mischaracterized as well, but one thing I’ve noticed on this thread (A LOT) in recent years is that parents of UMKC BA/MD matriculants tend to highly overmagnify & sometimes overexaggerate the difficulties of the traditional track of getting into medical school, beyond what it may be in reality (and I’m not saying it’s not hard, especially if you’re coming from a place like California, where their state’s medical schools can be quite competitive to get into). Often it’s to justify their child’s (& family’s) decision to come to the UMKC BA/MD program.
Often this is based on anecdote, for example, hearing how difficult it was for a friend’s kid to get into medical school or that maybe they didn’t get into medical school at all, and then extrapolating that experience to everyone else. Keep in mind we don’t have that person’s entire application record in front of us. And the plural of anecdote is not data. There’s a reason most medical schools do not have a Bachelor/MD program, which I won’t go into detail here.
As we’ve said before, the UMKC BA/MD 6 year program is made for a particular type of student when it comes to career/specialty goals. For most high school students, that’s hard to know & be 100% sure of when entering from high school, even for those who are academically top notch.
As I said in my post above, whatever perceived problems you’ve already assigned to the normal traditional pathway in your head are just going to be replaced by a new set of (maybe even more difficult) problems when you enter as a Year 1 at UMKC on the Volker campus. Unlike other Bachelor/MD programs, there is no chance to “start over” academically, as there is no official separation between the undergraduate part before heading off into the medical school part.
As you mentioned, it’s important for applicants to talk to a variety of students in the program which I’ve detailed here as well:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/discussion/comment/19465274#Comment_19465274
I disagree with this on a few levels. A program like this one isn’t made to just “take a risk.” Leaving the program (depending on when you do) has real pitfalls and it’s important that students know what those are before entering the program, especially if they would be pursuing med school the normal way after leaving the combined program. This is especially the case where students (even in-state) are paying School of Medicine rate tuition starting in the first year of the combined BA/MD program.
This is false about ORM. There is no tangible disadvantage of applying to medical school as an ORM. Any disadvantage is small and will not be the make-or-break.
This is also false about the traditional route acceptance rate. Keep in mind many people apply to medical school that should not be applying. If you are a strong student, your rate of acceptance is much higher. Trust me when I say that you will not make it through the UMKC program if you could not get into medical school the traditional way. The program is rigorous, and it’s not simply an easier shortcut. If you would not do well on the MCAT, you will also not do well on the USMLE board examinations. You should view the difficulties of the traditional pathway as an opportunity for personal and academic growth, rather than some horror to avoid at all costs.
I wish your kid the best in the program. There is no doubt that students CAN succeed. However, I would watch if he is happy (not just academically, but also personally with friendships/dating/etc) after his first year and quickly decide if staying in the program is right for them.
@Roentgen had a good point that most of the BA/MD programs in the country are disappearing. This is important. Even when I was applying, there were at least 10-15 6-7 year MD programs in the country. Now, when my sibling was applying this year, there were only 3-4 remaining (including UMKC). This is FOR A REASON. Many schools have realized that these programs are unsustainable and are not the best way to train future doctors. The other accelerated programs that do exist often have distinct undergraduate and medical school years, whereas UMKC is blended together. The other accelerated programs still have an MCAT requirement, which UMKC does not. The other accelerated programs are at institutions with stronger reputation and research institutions, giving their students the same opportunities as other medical students. This ultimately boils down to the idea that the undergraduate to medical school pathway is important, and many of the roadblocks (undergrad coursework, MCAT, etc.) are important for the development of a good medical student.
@vastax105 wrote a paragraph about how age/experience matters. This was true in my experience as well. Residency programs often prefer older, more mature students with more life experiences, compared to integrated program students.
@cardboardvase @vastax105 @Roentgen - Thank you all for your candid and truly valuable comments.
There has been mention of the difficulty of students matching into highly competitive specialties, especially those that do not have their own departments at UMKC. What has been your experiences, if any, working with KU faculty in those particular specialties? Since several of the teaching hospitals are shared, do these KU physicians also mentor UMKC students?
So I’ll leave the question about the quality of personal experiences & mentorship from KU Med faculty for UMKC medical students to @cardboardvase @vastax105 to discuss about theirs or their classmates’ experiences, when it comes to clinical departments/residency programs that UMKC does not offer, as that did not apply to me.
Keep in mind that from KU Med’s perspective, you would be considered a visiting medical student, if you were to get involved with their departments in some way, whether that’s research or rotating there as a Year 5/6.
So far that I’m aware of, KU and UMKC do not share teaching hospitals. These are KU’s teaching hospitals: http://www.kumc.edu/patients.html#clinical-partners, and these are UMKC’s teaching hospitals: https://med.umkc.edu/bamd/faqs/ (see question: “Who are the hospital partners of the UMKC School of Medicine?”
Thank you @Roentgen for the clarification
@QwertyX22 In general, no. The teaching hospitals are separate. KU students are given first priority by KU departments, for obvious reasons. Although it’s possible to work with them in the upper years, you will be a visiting student and will have to take time off from UMKC or a visiting rotation spot to make it possible. There are also more logistical barriers for an outside student to work with KU. It is likely impossible for students in the lower years to work with an outside department.
Thank you @cardboardvase. That information is very helpful.
I’m new to this forum, very useful information for the UMKC program and other med programs. I should have joined this forum earlier to get the pros and cons of different med programs. My son has accepted the UMKC med program last month and ready to move in. Thanks to @Roentgen @cardboardvase @vastax105 for the valuable thoughts about the program.
@vastax105 @cardboardvase Hi guys! I sent you both a PM. I’d really appreciate your advice! : )