UMKC 6-year BS/MD Program

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
1741

Actually I’m a high school senior that is researching this program, thru the UMKC website, Google, and asking UMKC students in the program on Facebook, which I did after I sent my application. I have applied to this program, but in researching it I am seeing more and more glaring problems in the program. Examples: In the Anatomy course medical students do not themselves dissect cadavers to learn Anatomy but rather look at pictures in an atlas (every medical student will tell you the real way to learn it is by dissecting, while there is a trend now to use computer media – this is not the majority by any means) and apparently the medical school Pharmacology course (a very important course for doctors as they prescribe these drugs) is TWO months long, not even a semester!!! I understanding needing to fit things in a period of six years but it shouldn’t be to the detriment of students. And these are just the beginning, not to mention funding, letter grading medical school classes when they are usually some form of Pass/Fail, board score averages, match lists in specialties, etc.

Other combined programs I am applying to: Northwestern, Brown, Rice/Baylor, USC/Keck, Penn State/Jefferson Medical College, Boston University, Case Western, UPitt, Penn State/Penn State Medical School, and WashU.

First, you should know that actually the six year BA/MD students do not do take most of the premedical requirements. They do not do General Biology I and II with Labs, Physics I and II with Labs, and the Organic Course is a watered down one semester course in comparison to Organic Chemistry I and II with Labs that premeds take. If you see here the organic course has the name “Elementary” for a reason: [Elementary</a> Organic Chemistry](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c320.html]Elementary”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c320.html). The ones who extend in the program or fail out of the program, are not failing out in Year 1 but seem to be much more in Year 2 when they are no longer taking “premed” requirements but medical school Biochemistry and Human Structure Function as sophomores in college. Biochemistry is not even a premed requirement.

You are actually incorrect on the numbers in that statement. Please see here: [Enrollment[/url</a>]
“With this in mind we have accepted 100-110 students at the Year 1 level and accepted Year 3 students based on the number promoting to Year 2 out of potential 100” So once again they bring the number back to 100, immediately when Year 3 starts, it is now the Fall so I’m sure people have extended or failed.

It’s not correct for you to compare the attrition rate of premeds vs. the attrition rate from the six year program as I don’t know any college sophomores who take medical school level Gross Anatomy, Histology, Physiology, and Biochemistry. Premeds are taking undergraduate courses – the very few premed requirements over a much longer period of time with summer breaks vs. the six year undergraduate portion curriculum seems unusually compressed and seems to skimp on basic undergraduate courses which is probably why the attrition rate is so high as logically this would imply that students are underprepared for graduate-level coursework. Also the med school does not seem to have the desire to want traditional applicants. That’s not it’s goal or its major selling point as for most people who take the MCATs, they get into better schools than UMKC. Six year students don’t have a choice – they didn’t take the MCAT and seem to have settled on a crappy school.

Actually if you calculate for an out-of-stater who went to Mizzou for undergrad and medical school it’s STILL cheaper than UMKC’s six years of out of state tuition ($321,554)

Out of state = (18,850 x 4) + (48,368 + 48,368 + 53,772 + 53,558) = 279,466

Even then, with “2 years of extra pay” including factors such as interests and practicing two years earlier, etc. this still can not make up for the unusually high loan debt burden accumulated at UMKC (a state school whose school is ranked Tier 3 in undergraduate institutions and is not even ranked at all in the medical school section for research or primary care, bc UMKC purposely chooses not to take part in the rankings – unlike almost every other Missouri medical school: [url=<a href=“Redirect Notice”>Redirect Notice] Ranking](<a href=“http://www.med.umkc.edu/organization/sections/enrollment/ENROLLMENT_05.pdf]Enrollment[/url”>http://www.med.umkc.edu/organization/sections/enrollment/ENROLLMENT_05.pdf) But we can agree to disagree on this.

First off, the people who apply to UMKC’s six year med program are not your average student. These are students who would get into top notch undergraduate programs, as babanana mentioned other institutions students got in, but CHOSE UMKC for the “sealed deal” of becoming A doctor (not necessarily a doctor in the specialty one may choose later). So for you to say “The average person applying to UMKC most likely would not be a successful candidate for an Ivy League school,” is quite insulting. Your statement is probably very much true for those who do 4 years of undergrad, take the MCATs, and then apply to see which medical school acceptances come in, but not combined degree program applicants who are much more proactive, hardworking, etc. Most people who do undergrad, take the MCATs and are actually competitive for medical schools would not settle for UMKC, which you even said you applied to osteopathic schools.

Actually I wasn’t talking about Mizzou’s Conley scholarship. I was talking about their combined Bachelor/MD program – the Conley Scholars Program: [Conley</a> Scholars Pre-admission Program, University of Missouri School of Medicine](<a href=“http://www.muhealth.org/ahec/conleyscholars.shtml]Conley”>http://www.muhealth.org/ahec/conleyscholars.shtml)

Once again this was babanana and HappytoGraduate saying that a majority of students enroll in formal Kaplan commercial review courses.

Once again, I don’t think you’re understanding. That is why these programs were created and why students apply to these programs in the first place. The reason why high school seniors enter these programs is to 1. Avoid taking the MCAT or only taking the MCAT as a formality, 2. Not having to worry excessively about keeping up GPA/Extracurriculars/CV type stuff and 3. Hearing about how hard it is to get into medical school in the first place – as the saying goes, “A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush”. What many students frequently end up doing is picking a bad school just for the guarantee and not looking at the big picture of how their residency options are affected.

1742

I am studying for finals, so not much time, but four quick things:

1.) I took all of the basic pre-med courses. It didn’t put me above my peers in the 6 year program in HSF. I loved Organic Chemistry, but it’s not terribly applicable to medicine outside of biochemistry.

2.) The amount of hours you take for your basic sciences has to be kosher with the accrediting bodies. You are going to take the same amount of hours for pharmocology at UMKC as anywhere else, it’s just compressed. You are looking at the course via a timeline, not credit hours. During the pharmocology course at UMKC, you take five hourse of pharm a day.

3.) I didn’t mean to insult you. I stand by my statement. There is a lot that happens in four years of college, and high fliers out of high school are not always high fliers in college. Furthermore, Ivy’s look at numbers for sure, but they also look for other factors in their applicants (i.e. did you spend time in the peace corps, etc). They can afford to be that selective. I suppose, since I am an MD only, I could be insulted by the latter half of your statement, which implies we are all duds (and your personal dig at me applying to osteopathic schools, I applied broadly with an eye towards location like a lot of applicants). But I have thicker skin than that. Applying to a D.O. school doesn’t imply an applicant is sub-par. You will most likely be working with D.O.'s the rest of your career, so it might be wise to get over the idiotic M.D./D.O. snobbery now.

Again, you assume the choice of where to go to med school boils down to numbers, rankings, etc. There are other factors at play like location and family, especially for older students.

As for the part I bolded. Of course you have a choice. You have a choice not to come here. If you are convinced that UMKC is a “crappy school”, than why are you even wasting anymore time on the matter? Even if you don’t get into another combined program, if you really want to be a Dr., go the traditional route as do the vast majority of Med Students.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck with it.

1743

Did anyone hear about interviews yet? When do you usually find out if you got an interview?

1744

Froggie2009,

Some schools will give you their USMLE Step 1 average score quite readily, others won’t or will tap dance around it and be very vague. It’s good to probably ask for several years rather than just one year for the average score AND the passing rate, as the more data points you have, the less likely to see a skewed result. You can google some of them I’m sure, like on SDN, but the problem is you are hearing from someone who may or may not be from the institution, although there are quite a few identified SDN members (who have nothing to gain) from medical institutions that will give you that information.

Many times, you can email a dean/assistant dean in the Student Affairs office and ask that information (assuming they actually answer you back). In Googling, it seems the University of Virginia School of Medicine is the most transparent in listing all their USMLE information (mean, standard deviation, number failed, etc.) They actually list their score reports from the NBME for the school: [UVa</a> Step 1](<a href=“http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/handbook/academics/licensure.cfm#results]UVa”>http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/handbook/academics/licensure.cfm#results). For your purposes, however, they don’t have a combined Baccalaureate/MD program unfortunately.

So look at it & see all the information and where ever you interview at, ask around and then use the above website as comparison. Regardless, they should be more than happy to give you that information. It’s actually #7, on the 31 questions list. If they get miffed that you asked or don’t give you an answer (as you said you emailed them twice), then it should tell you something. It’s your tuition money, you have the right to know. While board scores are definitely not all-encompassing of medical school quality, they ARE important.

1745

<ol>
<li>Osteopathic school students as a whole tend to have had lower overall GPAs and lower MCAT scores, as well as have more than on average so called “non-traditional” students. That’s a FACT, whether you like it or not. Yes, there are some who say they “like the D.O. philosophy” & wanted to go to a D.O. school" but that is very much the exception not the rule. In general those who apply for D.O. schools, did so bc they knew deep down they were not strong applicants to receive an acceptance to an M.D. school. Even if you went to an allegedly Top 50 school, it’s obvious even then your MCAT score and GPA were not that great if the best school you could get into was UMKC - a Tier 3 level undergraduate institution and a medical school which is not even ranked in med school rankings with respect to research or primary care.</li>
</ol>

MCAT - [Osteopathic</a> Schools Ranked by MCAT](<a href=“http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm]Osteopathic”>http://www.kcom.edu/faculty/chamberlain/ranmcat.htm)
[MCAT</a> Score and GPA - Important for Medical School Application and Admissions process<a href=“under%20average%20GPA%20&%20MCAT%20scores”>/url</a>

<ol>
<li>If you actually look at the LCME (the body that accredidates M.D. schools) website, you will see they don’t actually regulate the exact number of hours of instruction: [url=<a href=“http://www.lcme.org/functionslist.htm]LCME”>http://www.lcme.org/functionslist.htm]LCME</a> Accreditation Standards](<a href=“http://www.medschoolready.com/app/gpaMCAT.asp]MCAT”>http://www.medschoolready.com/app/gpaMCAT.asp). Even with 5 hrs. a day there is only so much you can cover in a period of 2 months vs. an entire semester. Not to mention, such a compressed course vs. if you look at another example curriculum (at OU) the basic science instruction is much longer, esp. note the Pharmacology course and the Pathology course (Introduction to Human Illness) vs. at UMKC that Pathology course is only 4 months: <a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/medicine/curriculum/acrobat_files/course_prereq.pdf[/url]”>http://www.umkc.edu/medicine/curriculum/acrobat_files/course_prereq.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
</ol>

OU:
[MS1:</a> Foundation of Medicine](<a href=“http://www.oumedcenter.com/body.cfm?id=685]MS1:”>http://www.oumedcenter.com/body.cfm?id=685)
[MS2:</a> Health & Disease](<a href=“http://www.oumedcenter.com/body.cfm?id=686]MS2:”>http://www.oumedcenter.com/body.cfm?id=686)

<ol>
<li>You didn’t understand what I said with regards to choice in the program, so I will say it again. I stand by my statement. Those who are usually proactive enough and competitive enough to apply to combined Baccalaureate/MD programs and who still decide to do medicine by doing 4+4 instead, are usually those who have stamina, motivation, and ability to get into top medical schools. Many of the students who apply to these programs have taken AP Biology, AP Chemistry, and AP Physics B (I have), leaving only Organic Chemistry as undone material before college (Premeds obviously take the actual courses again in college as med schools want to see a grade in these courses, not AP credit).</li>
</ol>

Those who choose the UMKC program have the full right to expect a quality level medical school - esp. with the inordinate amount of tuition money being paid - the point is that they obviously don’t based on their match lists that have been posted on CC as well as their lackluster board scores. You had the chance to actually get into a quality school if you had actually taken the time to do well on the MCATs and do well GPA-wise. Those who enter the program even with stellar grades are stuck at a lackluster medical school and what is worse is they are locked into the program as if they don’t leave right after the first year, they would lose more years, to catch up in premed requirements, than if they had just done 4+4. This is not the case with other programs which make you take

The point is that combined degree students for goed the MCAT with the expectation of getting a quality medical school education. If it was that great, it would be noticed outside of the midwest. Even Mizzou’s med school is more well-known not to mention WashU and SLU. You can’t just “say” that your medical school is good. There have to be certain endpoints to measure that: board scores, frequency of matching into competitive specialities, institutions matched into, etc. You have to say more at the end of your medical school education than “I graduated in 6 years”, which being an MD-only, you can’t even say that.

Also thank you for not addressing the more pertinent point, mentioned earlier, of medical students not actually dissecting to learn anatomy (pro-sected cadavers don’t count). It seems like when students are dependent on Kaplan courses as earlier mentioned, that’s a huge problem don’t you think?

1746

And yet, since you are so concerned with rankings and numbers, Michigan State’s DO school was ranked #4 in the nation among all medical schools (MD and DO).

As for all the statistics, you are right that on average DO schools admit people with lower numbers.

In the end is it relevant? They will be your colleagues and have the same practice rights as you have.

You don’t know anything about me personally, just as I don’t know anymore about you that what you have disclosed. I try not to infer things about people that I don’t know to be a fact. However, your penchant for taking personal digs at me demonstrates your lack of maturity. Especially considering how easily your feelings were hurt when I made my statement about the average 6 year UMKC student getting into an Ivy league medical school.

UMKC wasn’t the best ranked school I got into. As I’ve noted on here, in virtually every post, there is a wide range of factors that goes into a normal applicants decision process.

The LCME sets the standards for accreditation and the schools comply. Schools obviously have the latitude to structure their programs, but they are required to teach a certain amount of hours for each subject. If all medical schools were clones, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. In the end, the credit hours between two institutions have to be the same or close to the same for the school to meet the standards for accreditation. No medical school is going to get away with teaching half of the required material, as you imply. Again, it’s the credit hours that count, not the time frame.

There is some logic in wondering if a student can learn the material as effectively in a compressed setting versus a longer one.

[quote]

  1. You didn’t understand what I said with regards to choice in the program, so I will say it again. I stand by my statement. Those who are usually proactive enough and competitive enough to apply to combined Baccalaureate/MD programs and who still decide to do medicine by doing 4+4 instead, are usually those who have stamina, motivation, and ability to get into top medical schools. Many of the students who apply to these programs have taken AP Biology, AP Chemistry, and AP Physics B (I have), leaving only Organic Chemistry as undone material before college (Premeds obviously take the actual courses again in college as med schools want to see a grade in these courses, not AP credit).

[quote]

Than I suppose we can both fall back on our unvarnished opinions on the matter based on our own anecdotal evidence. I saw many of the “most likely to succeed” types fall by the wayside in college. On the other hand, I know more than a few doctors who were not great high school students.

High school is great, but it’s not college and doing well in one doesn’t mean you are going to do well in another and vice versa.

What is the average board score at UMKC? I am just curious if you have something to actually quantify that statement.

Again with the personal attacks. Why don’t you tell me what my MCAT and GPA were, since you seem to know so much about me?

Of note, I think any medical school in this country that meets the standards of accreditation that have been set forth is a “quality” school. Within that subset some are better than others, obviously.

That would certainly be something that I would want to take into consideration if I were applying to a 6 year program.

At the end of my medical education I am going to say “I am a doctor”. For me, I would say that regardless of where I went to school. I didn’t go down this route to hang a diploma on a wall or brag about where I went to medical school because I am oh-so-smart. I am here to be a doctor. The timeline is irrelevant to me. If the time and/or money concerned me, I wouldn’t have left behind another successful career to do this.

I didn’t address it because I didn’t realize it’s a huge sticking point. If you are dying to cut open a cadaver and/or feel like you will not be able to learn anatomy without that, than I suppose it is a problem for you. It wasn’t a problem for me. As noted by you, many schools are moving away from cadavers and dissecting a human body is not a requirement to be an M.D. Anatomy itself, is not a huge portion of Step 1.

As for the Kaplan thing, I still haven’t seen any quantitative numbers that demonstrates that UMKC students are reliant on that course to get the board score they want/need. I can’t address an anecdotal statement.

Nor can you.

1747

I emailed someone at UMKC student affairs as sugggested, regarding board scores and this is the information I got, just so everyone is aware of the information. I’m currently a junior who is researching all the information now. The 31 questions website from the AAMC is very helpful in that regard: [AAMC:</a> Applying to Medical School: Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked](<a href=“http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/31questions.htm]AAMC:”>http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/31questions.htm)

In my original email I wrote that I wanted to know what have been the USMLE Step 1 means (averages) in the past 5 years (2004 to 2008). This is the information I got & she was nice about it.

I’m assuming when she says, “off by 5% points”, she means below the national pass rate by 5%. From the previous website from MD2B2012 I got the actual national pass rates:

Step 1 (Percent Passing on first attempt from U.S. & Canadian Medical Schools)

Natl 2004: 92
Natl 2005: 93
Natl 2006: 93
Natl 2007: 94
Natl 2008: 93

Step 2 (Percent Passing on first attempt from U.S. & Canadian Medical Schools)

Natl 2004: 94
Natl 2005: 94
Natl 2006: 94
Natl 2007: 95
Natl 2008: 96

I then noticed that she had only given me the pass rates (percentage of the class that actually passed boards the first time) & not the average/mean score for students at UMKC. Students who go for competitive specialties esp. I imagine would want to do more than just pass - which should be a given). The USMLE Step 1 score averages for UVa from MD2B2012 are also listed on the site: [UVa[/url</a>] (This was interesting for me as I am from Virginia)

so I emailed again & asked for the average board scores in the past 5 yrs. She responded:

Which I think she actually meant national pass rate as that is what her email from before to me was referring to, which she had given. That’s all I was able to get - just so everyone has the information.

Also according to the UVa website for 2008:

University of Virginia Step 1 mean scores from 2004 - 2008 (parentheses is the national mean):
223 (216), 227 (217), 225 (218), 226 (222), 235 (222)

Passing = 185.

Maybe someone will be able to get an actual score average from asking on their interviews or something.

Below is a bell curve I found regarding the distribution of scores across the country.
<a href=“http://cipherbook.com/files/usmlestep1curve.jpg[/url]”>http://cipherbook.com/files/usmlestep1curve.jpg](<a href=“http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/handbook/academics/licensure.cfm#results]UVa[/url”>http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/handbook/academics/licensure.cfm#results)</a>

1748

In 2001, UMKC’s mean score on Step 1 was 201.

1749

The national mean in 2001, according to the UVa website, where it seems they posted the actual score report for the school from the NBME itself, was 215.

1750

To add to what The Scunyon says, I definitely agree, if your only reasons for going to UMKC are that you are afraid of the MCAT or that you don’t think you can get into medical school through the normal route - UMKC is not right for you, as it is called an accelerated program for a reason. You are expected as a six-year student to pick things up fast - even without the prerequisites normal undergraduates have to take. Once you’re in the six-year program after the Year 2 Fall Semester, you really don’t have an option to leave without extra years to catch up and/or extra expense.

The way one of my friends put it is if you took the early guaranteed acceptance to medical school out of the picture - would I still want to go to this particular undergrad school/med school? Ask this of yourself of any combined program you end up getting interviews to. It’s a lot harder for many to objectively answer this question when you’ve already gotten the acceptance bc you feel guilty for shutting the door on an opportunity. Hence, do the legwork now and be realistic.

Based on your career goals (primary care vs. competitive subspecialities, academic vs. private practice, amount of debt when you finish, etc.) as well as the ability to handle a very condensed curriculum that runs year round in Kansas City (remember 2 full years of undergrad (fall, spring, summer) are being taken out) is something everyone should take fully into consideration.

As usual mentioned as many times by me and others: [AAMC:</a> Applying to Medical School: Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked](<a href=“http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/31questions.htm]AAMC:”>http://www.aamc.org/students/applying/about/31questions.htm)

Undergraduate science courses taken:

Year 1 Fall:
[CHEM</a> 211 - General Chemistry I](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c211.html]CHEM”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c211.html)
[CHEM</a> 211L - Experimental General Chemistry I](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c211l.html]CHEM”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c211l.html)
[LSANAT</a> 119 - Functional Anatomy I](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/ls-anat/c119.html]LSANAT”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/ls-anat/c119.html)
[LSANAT</a> 119L - Functional Anatomy I Laboratory](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/ls-anat/c119l.html]LSANAT”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/ls-anat/c119l.html)

Year 2 Spring:
[CHEM</a> 212R - General Chemistry II](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c212r.html]CHEM”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c212r.html)
[CHEM</a> 212LR - Experimental General Chemistry II](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c212lr.html]CHEM”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c212lr.html)
[LSMCRB</a> 121 - Human Biology III (Microbiology)](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/ls-mcrb/c121.html]LSMCRB”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/ls-mcrb/c121.html)
[LSMCRB</a> 121L - Human Biology III (Microbiology) Lab](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/ls-mcrb/c121l.html]LSMCRB”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/ls-mcrb/c121l.html)

Year 2 Summer
[CHEM</a> 320 - Elementary Organic Chemistry](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c320.html]CHEM”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c320.html)
[CHEM</a> 320L - Experimental Organic Chemistry](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c320l.html]CHEM”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/as/chem/c320l.html)
[BIO</a> 202 - Cell Biology 202](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/biol/c202.html]BIO”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/biol/c202.html)

Year 2 Fall
[BIO</a> 206 - Genetics 206](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/biol/c206.html]BIO”>http://www.umkc.edu/umkc/catalog/htmlc/bio-sc/biol/c206.html)

1751

Also, to compare different medical schools with respect to:

Curriculum structure: [Curriculum[/url</a>]

  • [<em>]Traditional basic science subject (Gross Anatomy, Physiology, Microbiology, Pathology, etc.)
    [</em>]Organ systems (Cardiovascular, Respiratory, Gastrointestinal, Endocrine, etc.)
    [<em>]A combination of both traditional and organ system based curriculums

Grading systems: [url=<a href=“http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm]Grading”>http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/grading1.cfm]Grading</a> Intervals](<a href=“http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section2/courses.cfm]Curriculum[/url”>http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section2/courses.cfm)

[ul]
[</em>]A, B, C, D, F
[<em>]Honors, High Pass, Pass, Marginal Pass, Fail
[</em>]Honors, Pass, Fail
[li]Pass, Fail only -------------> the best and least stressful to learn IMHO (lol)[/li][/ul]

USMLE Step 1 and 2: [USMLE</a> Step 1](<a href=“http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/requirements1.cfm]USMLE”>http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/requirements1.cfm), [USMLE</a> Step 2](<a href=“http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/requirements2.cfm]USMLE”>http://services.aamc.org/currdir/section1/requirements2.cfm)[ul]
[<em>] Those that consider the USMLE Step 1/2 as optional (like those who would work in the private sector, and not proceed into residency)
[</em>] Those that require you to take the test and pass it in order to promote to MS-3
[li] Those that require you to take the test and pass it before you graduate, but not for promotion[/li][/ul]

1752

Old Dominion,

For whatever it is worth, as a traditional applicant, I found that most schools, unless they smoked the boards used the same talking point: “Around the national average”. It makes sense when you consider that, hey, it’s the national average.

Most schools do not readily release their board score averages.

I don’t think it’s right, as that is a valid consideration in making your choice and you are a consumer, but that seems to be the way things go.

Just pointing out that UMKC is not unique in it’s reluctance to release its numbers.

That was just my anecdotal experience, but you can check out the subject on other med school forums if you want.

Happy,

Thanks for the mean USMLE # from 2001.

1753

No problem Scunyon, sorry it’s a little dated (2001), but I wanted to make sure that it was something I was 100% sure about and not something I was guesstimating on. Maybe some sleuthing on Old Dominion’s part will get us a more recent number score.

Guys, if you have questions regarding the “medical school” part of the curriculum, please also ask The Scunyon to get another point of view as well. Advanced standing (or now I guess they are called MD-only students) join the class in the Spring Semester of Year 2 in the program along with everyone else: [University</a> of Missouri - Kansas City : Typical Six-Year Program Curriculum](<a href=“http://www.umkc.edu/catalog/2008-09/undergraduate/pg1231.html]University”>http://www.umkc.edu/catalog/2008-09/undergraduate/pg1231.html)

Old Dominion, good job on slowly getting the information now as a junior rather than when you have a million things to do senior year. Too frequently, people hear the “six year med” part and have a “get in now, ask questions later” mentality, which is not good at all, no matter what you decide to do: 4+4 route or the combined degree route. Also at least you know which programs require SAT II exams as well. For a few of the programs taking the SAT II Chemistry test is a common requirement (not UMKC though). On another note, that’s really awesome that you were able to find that University of Virginia School of Medicine posts their complete score reports for Step 1 and 2 (summary, bar chart, and score distribution) since 1997: [University</a> of Virginia Step 1 and Step 2 CK results](<a href=“http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/handbook/academics/licensure.cfm#results]University”>http://www.med-ed.virginia.edu/handbook/academics/licensure.cfm#results)

I recommend taking the “Thirty-One Questions I Wish I Had Asked” and making a chart with the questions on one column and the answers you get in another column. Then you have all the information about that school in one place.

I’ll tell you right now, it will take a lot of legwork on your part but many of those questions can be found on the school website. I do think though actually talking to 3 people IN DIFFERENT YEARS of any program (whether through email, in person, or by phone) is the most helpful. Once again, a med program should be more than happy to give you contacts of people or where you can be contacted by students in the program to hear more about the intricacies of the program.

1754

I expected that, but at the same time, all the other schools were very transparent to give me their board score averages. Of course, unlike UMKC, these schools aren’t filled with almost all combined degree students either.

Also yes, Happy thanks for that UMKC average from 2001, yes, that year the national score average was 215 from the UVa website.

Just to give you guys an idea I then responded to her second reponse with this below

If I do get any answers, I’ll be sure to post it on here.

1755

Happy New Year everyone!!! Hopefully you all are reflecting over the year and are aiming to improve what ever it is to reach your goals this new year.

To evaluate different BA/MD and BS/MD programs:
Kind of summarizes everything we’ve been discussing, but a lot more organized.
[BA/MD</a> and BS/MD Programs FAQ - Student Doctor Network Forums](<a href=“BA/MD and BS/MD Programs FAQ | Student Doctor Network”>BA/MD and BS/MD Programs FAQ | Student Doctor Network)

OldDominion, it’s good that you followed up on his/her response in his/her second email, “I don’t actually know the actual number, just how we relate to the national average”, although I do have to disagree a little with The Scunyon. When he/she said “I don’t actually know the actual number, just how we relate to the national average,” based on his/her first email I think for him/her when she says “national average”, he/she means the national pass rate, not the actual national three digit score average (mean), which will always be above the score required to pass anyways (Post #1747). For example from your Iowa link in 2007, the national pass rate (meaning the percent of testers who achieved a score of at least 185) was 94%, while the actual national mean score was 222.

It’s good that you were able to give him/her examples of other schools who actually posted their NBME (National Board of Medical Examiners) score reports including their mean (average) scores, but just to give you a heads up, I am HIGHLY doubtful that he/she will actually give you the UMKC mean (average) scores for the past 5 years, that you were requesting, unlike the other schools whom you contacted and gave you their score means.

1756

anyone gotten an interview yet?

1757

I received an e-mail today for an interview. :slight_smile:

1758

I got an interview about 10 days ago but the email says that they are still going through applications…
congratulations rwishka!

1759

My twin sister and I got our interviews today :]

1760

i got an interview today. Do u guys know how to prepare for it?