UNC Chapel Hill vs. William and Mary

College Search & Selection
1

<p>So by this point, I've narrowed my college choices down to UNC Chapel Hill and William and Mary. (I've also been waitlisted at Cornell CALS, which I'll seriously consider if I end up getting taken off the waitlist.) There doesn't seem to be a huge amount of difference between them as far as academic reputation goes, but here's basically what's on my mind, in no particular order:</p>

<p>(BTW, I'm a white male from New York, who plans on majoring in econ. However, despite the funny similarities, I'm not the person who started the BC vs. UNC vs. W&M thread, elsewhere on this forum...)</p>

<p>1) UNC is generally considered to be a little superior to WM academcially, right? Which college (if either) is generally thought to have a better economics department?</p>

<p>2) In terms of the large number of students at UNC, how common is it to find yourself in a relatively large class (~50+ students)? Also, do the professors make themselves available enough to the students? And if anyone has experience with both schools, how much difference is there between UNC and W&M in this regard?</p>

<p>3) I'm moderately liberal, and I'm basically under the impression that W&M student body is overall somewhat conservative. That doesn't bother me that much (my family's conservative too... I'm pretty much used to it), but what are the general political leanings of the UNC student body? Obviously this isn't a make-it-or-break-it thing, just something that'd be nice.</p>

<p>4) Every now and then I've heard about budget problems at W&M. (Their endowment is $400m, vs. UNC's $2.3b, although UNC probably has higher expenses with their larger student body, and I don't know if they get additional money from the state also.) But is this a noticeable problem?</p>

2

<p>Two completely different institutions.</p>

<p>1) W&M has the better academic reputation. I live in NC and the UNC people are constantly expressing respect for W&M. Now, UNC is the better U for Graduate programs which may reflect your misperception. My roomate majored in Econ at W&M and went to Yale for his PHD.</p>

<p>2) UNC will have the grad asst teach a lot of intro classes but this problem is less and less as you take higher classes. The one distinction is that UNC is a research school and W&M is a teaching school. This attracts faculty whose focus is either teaching or research to either school according to their strengths. I wanted a teaching faculty so W&M worked well.</p>

<p>3) W&M students will be more moderate than UNC students. By sheer size and locale in NC you will see more "W" stickers than at W&M. Especially in the Greek system. Chapel Hill is still the Good Ol Boy network for NC.</p>

<p>4) Both schools are financially stable and there are no noticeable differences in that respect. Obviously UNC will have larger facilities due to being the State U but they are 3-4 times as large. I remember a friend having to play an intramural b-ball game at midnight due to demand on the gym.</p>

<p>These are two very different schools and I hope you choose the one that fits you the best. Good Luck.</p>

3

<p>Wow. There's nothing like overblown generalizations and stereotypes, doctorb. </p>

<p>I live in NC, too, and I've never heard anyone ever mention W&M, to be honest. Although W&M certainly has a good reputation, UNC does have the better academic reputation. One of the (many) strengths of UNC is that it is an excellent school for undergraduates, as well as having strong, top graduate programs and professional schools. In terms of rankings (if that is of interest to you), UNC is ranked higher in just about every regard than is W&M.</p>

<p>My daughter, who is a sophomore, has had both large classes and small. The few (and by that, I mean, 2) large classes she had as a freshman were all required courses for her major (as well as some other majors). Professors taught those classes, with TA's leading the precepts. She has small foreign language classes (20 or less), led by faculty. In fact, one of her foreign language professors is also the head of the dept. I believe some of those language classes, if not all, have also had precepts led by TA's (native speakers of the language). Again, they've been excellent from what I've heard. You can also place out of a lot of entry-level classes if you come in with high enough scores on AP/IB or, in some cases, on the SAT.</p>

<p>UNC is a large enough campus, and there is so much going on, that it's easy to get involved with lots of activities and to meet and hang out with lots of different types of people. As far as the Greek scene, only 15% of the entire student body belongs to a fraternity or sorority.</p>

<p>I would imagine that each school would feel very different to you. And since you're not from either NC or VA, the in-state tuition is of no consequence to you.. W&M is a lot smaller, in both student population and campus size. In terms of having strong academics and a great undergraduate college experience, though, UNC has it all. Undergraduates are pretty happy there. </p>

<p>Also, UNC is very liberal-- known as a blue island in a sea of red. One of the more amusing stories w/regard to the "political leanings" of UNC, is that many years ago, when the state of NC was trying to raise funds for the NC zoo, Jesse Helms was against it. He (jokingly?) said something like, "What do we need a state zoo for-- we should just put a fence around UNC-CH." ;)</p>

<p>Hope that helps. If you have other questions, pm me. Also, you might want to put these same questions on the UNC-CH board; lots of both in-state and OOS students/parents will answer you there--more than here, I think.</p>

4

<p>You live in NC and have never heard anyone mention W&M? Either you need to improve the quality of your peer group or need to change the subject from basketball teams to academics. also compare apples to apples. UNC clearly has the better graduate programs. WM clearly has the better undergrad programs. Pls dont reference US News, everyone knows they are a joke and a ploy to sell magazines to people that otherwise would never buy an issue.</p>

<p>Relative to NC, UNC is liberal. Relative to liberal schools (UCB, Brown, Reed et al) it is not even close. </p>

<p>I love that you have pride in your daughter's school. I think UNC is a great large research U. It has great sports and party scenes and it is one of the best state schools in the country, esp for the price. But lets not go overboard.</p>

5

<p>doctorb: W/regard to your 2nd paragraph^, please read the next to the last paragraph on my post above. Perhaps you should take a course in reading comprehension. </p>

<p>My "peer group" doesn't often discuss public universities in nearby states. (We're usually going to basketball games, and if not going to them, we're discussing them--you know--just all the time.) ;) </p>

<p>My point was, that most students who are in a state with an already excellent public university, wouldn't spend the out-of-state tuition to attend another public university; consequently, I don't know many students from here who apply to W&M or who ever discuss it as an option. It's obviously an excellent school, but because NC already has an excellent public university system, as well as excellent private schools (ie, Duke; Davidson; Wake Forest, etc), those I know who are applying to schools out of state, usually apply to private schools--not to other public universities. I expect the same to be true for those who are residents of Virginia, with both UVA and W&M-- two excellent public universities--why spend the much higher out-of-state tuition to go to another equally fine public institution? </p>

<p>So, once again, no one I know in my "peer group" (those of us watching basketball all the time or partying) don't ever mention W&M. Yep, that's what I said. :)</p>

<p>By the way, you really need to get over your overblown generalizations and stereotypical thinking. If that's what W&M taught you, then that's good to know.</p>

6

<p>actually jack you need the course in reading comp. doctorb is just distinguishing between two completely different schools and has made some valid points. you just seem to be expressing fatherly pride, which while admirable, is not exactly objective nor accurate.</p>

<p>UNC is a great school with peers like UVA and Michigan. W&M more like Davidson, Brown, or Wake Forest. Just focus on the facts and try not to get personal. BTW, rankings are the last thing one should consider before choosing a college.</p>

7

<p>

"How would you characterize your political views?"
Left/Liberal 42.1%
Middle of the Road 34.7%
Right/Conservative 23.2%</p>

<p>"How would you describe your party affiliation?"
Strong Democrat 12.1%
Democrat, not strong 12.6%
Independent, closer to Democrats 25.9%
Independent 10.9%
Independent, closer to Republicans 10.3%
Republican, not so strong 13.8%
Strong Republican 8.6%
Green 2.9%
Libertarian 2.3%</p>

<p>"How closely do you follow the news?"
Not at all/not very closely 43.7%
Closely/very closely 56.3%</p>

<p><a href="http://www.wm.edu/government/documents/newsletter/Update2004.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wm.edu/government/documents/newsletter/Update2004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>

Nope. </p>

<p>

Indeed. To be precise, Kiplinger's put it at #3 for OOS value and #1 for in-state value.</p>

8

<p>It's funny how knee-jerk the UNC people are getting about their school, especially when they are comparing it to a dump that no one's ever heard of!</p>

<p>lol</p>

9

<p>I've lived basically my whole life in North Carolina and UNC-CH, ehhhh, it's not that great.
I didn't even bother applying, though I did apply to WM. Not that I plan on going there either, but I'd choose it over UNC any day.</p>

10

<p>I believe you would get a more well-rounded, personal, and intellectual education at W&M than UNC. Every time I visit the Carolina campus, it strikes me how ugly it is. Don't get me wrong, both my parents went to Carolina for undergrad, and my dad for grad school, but if I asked them, they'd tell me to go to W&M. I'm a blue blooded Carolina fan, I love the Bosh and Carmichael, but I just don't think the overall undergraduate education is comparable to William & Mary.</p>

<p>I can't vouch for the quality of either school's econ program. Have you visited both campuses?</p>

11

<p>Thanks for the responses, guys. I think the fact that a number of people are arguing for each side ? sometimes rather passionately ? just shows that each school has its merits, and maybe there's no clear-cut decision.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>It's interesting to hear that both schools are at least somewhat liberal. To clarify, I don't want a place quite as liberal as Berkeley or Reed, just somewhere that's not specifically conservative, if I had the choice. And so it seems that both schools fit that. </p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Actually no, I haven't been able to visit UNC and WM's campuses yet, since my parents wanted to see where I got in before traveling to the farther schools I was applying to. I'm going to be going down next week to see them, though. </p>

<p>So I think I'm leaning towards WM, but I'm still really not sure. Visiting them will definitely help though, and these responses have given me a lot of perspective.</p>

12

<p>Visit both and the decision will become clear. Best of luck to a bright future. Its nice to have good choices.</p>

13

<p>Well, I know quite a few people at W&M, and I can say it is amazing for people going to law school. W&M has sent quite a number of people to Harvard Law, for example, and has amazing English programs. On Econ, though, larger schools tend to be able to attract better Econ departments (Caltech being the exception that proves the rule). Just a sad fact that the best Econs are at big schools. I personally like W&M a lot better than UNC, but you need to see both schools for yourself</p>

14

<p>since i go to neither and i've been to both, maybe I can give you a non-biased answer.</p>

<p>UNC and W&M are about equal academically. Please be weary of statements like "W&M is a teaching school you get so much attention" or "UNC is graduate focused with no attention to undergrads." Yes UNC is larger, and by virtue of that fact there will be some very large undergrad classes. Don't be surprised to find yourself sitting in a 500 person Econ 101 class. But remember--once a class is over a certain size, say 50 people, it doesn't matter how big it is. Keep in mind, both UNC and W&M have about the same student:faculty ratio. Also, the only people who really think one is superior to the other are people who attended each respective university. The general public and grad schools regards them in the same light. W&M may have better grad school placement--but you have to look deeper into the numbers. If the average Harvard Law School applicant from W&M has a 3.9 GPA and the average UNC applicant to HLS has a 3.7, then obviously W&M will have a better acceptance rate. Also, W&M may have harder "weed" courses than UNC--these courses get rid of excess people who would have applied to med or law school.</p>

<p>In short, make your choice on non-academic factors.</p>

<p>UNC is much better at sports--no question. If you're into college athletics, UNC is the place to go. Even their football team is getting better, and you'll get to see them play marquee teams. You will not get this luxury at W&M.</p>

<p>UNC is a much better party school, if you're into that type of scene. While there's no doubt in my mind that you can have fun at W&M, I get the impression, from several people, that its much more difficult to have fun if you are not in a fraternity. Also, Williamsburg isn't exactly a "hoppin" town.</p>

<p>W&M has a nicer campus--even though the crimdell (however it's spelt) looked more like a swamp to me than a gorgeous lake when I was there (middle of summer about 6 years ago). Maybe its been cleaned up recently or I have a poor memory. Regardless, W&M is prettier.</p>

<p>Personally, if you're from NC, I don't think theres any reason to pass up the extremely cheap UNC for W&M, unless money is no factor and you absolutely hate UNC. W&M isn't Harvard--you arn't "jeopardizing" your future by passing it up.</p>

15

<p>Data mostly drawn from USNWR</p>

<p>OBJECTIVE DATA</p>

<p>Undergraduate Enrollment:
U North Carolina: 16,764 W&M: 5594</p>

<h1>and % of students who are in-state:</h1>

<p>U North Carolina: 13,914 (87%) W&M: 3748 (67%)</p>

<p>Cost (Tuition & Fees):
U North Carolina: $19,681 (OOS) W&M: $25,048</p>

<p>Graduation & Retention Rank
U North Carolina: 32nd W&M: 17th
-% of Students expected to graduate in 6 years:
U North Carolina: 79% W&M: 84%
-% of students who do graduate in 6 years:
U North Carolina: 84% W&M: 91%</p>

<p>Faculty Resources Rank:
U North Carolina: 40th W&M: 45th
-% of classes with 50+ students
U North Carolina: 11% W&M: 7%
-% of classes with <20 students
U North Carolina: 50% W&M: 47%
-Faculty/student ratio
U North Carolina: 14/1 W&M: 11/1</p>

<p>Student Selectivity Rank:
U North Carolina: 35th W&M: 26th
-Average SAT/ACT:
U North Carolina: 1210-1390 W&M: 1260-1440
-% of students ranking in top 10% of high school class
U North Carolina: 74% W&M: 79%
-% acceptance rate
U North Carolina: 37% W&M: 31%</p>

<h1>of 1500 scorers enrolled:</h1>

<p>U North Carolina: 892 (5%) W&M: 711 (13%)</p>

<p>Financial Resources Rank:
U North Carolina: 34th W&M: 111th </p>

<p>Alumni Giving % and Rank:
U North Carolina: 23% (45th) W&M: 25% (33rd)</p>

<p>SUBJECTIVE DATA</p>

<p>Peer Assessment:
U North Carolina: 4.2 W&M: 3.8</p>

<p>While both are public schools. W&M is only 1/3 the size. However, the resources dedicated by the schools and the states (especially those for students) are higher at U North Carolina. The student profile at W&M is marginally stronger than U North Carolina and the classroom comparisons mostly favor W&M. W&M, however is 25% more expensive for an OOS student to both schools. Among academics, and perhaps corroborating earlier comment about U North Carolina being research oriented and W&M teaching oriented, U North Carolina is the preferred choice.</p>

<p>The schools are very close in overall rank and many of the subcategories, but if you visit the schools and talk to the students and graduates, you will come to know the different personalities of these two excellent public schools. Personal fit should overwhelmingly drive this decision.</p>

16

<p>Originally Posted by doctorb
"Relative to NC, UNC is liberal. Relative to liberal schools (UCB, Brown, Reed et al) it is not even close."</p>

<p>^I find this any interesting statement. What school ISN'T considered more conservative when compare to Brown, Reed or Cal/Berkeley? lol! Not a good illustration if you are trying to illuminate us about the political leanings of W&M and UNC-CH.</p>

17

<p>If you've visited Chapel Hill/Carrboro, you would better understand this comparison. The town and students have a reputation for being significantly more liberal than other towns and areas in NC. That said, the liberalism is relative to North Carolina and in national terms (which is where Reed and Brown come in), UNC is not very liberal.</p>

<p>If you're interested in concerts and shows, Raleigh and Chapel Hill really draw the names. Especially Cat's Cradle in Carrboro and the Disco Rodeo in Raleigh. I don't know how the music scene is in Williamsburg, but Chapel Hill is the epicenter of national music in North Carolina.</p>

18

<p>hawkette,</p>

<p>can you stop writing usnews data in every friggin post comparing schools. most of the info is worthless, and nearly everyone here owns the book. i don't think we need it published 3000x on this website...</p>

19

<p>jags,
Believe it or not, I have gotten pms requesting that I put this info up. Not everybody has the book and sometimes the comparison can be useful or informative. Everyone can interpret the info as they see fit. Personally, I see the information as appropriate for use as a first-step in the college search & selection process. While many seniors are deciding among schools and this information is probably well-known to them, there are also many underclassmen who are just beginning their college search. Anyway, if you don't like it, then just go to the next post. It won't bother me at all. Someone else might find it useful.</p>

20

<p>The data helps eliminate confusion over which student body has higher scores. On the other W&M v UNC thread you erroneously stated UNC was higher based on incorrect data that you didnt analyze. (oh snap!)</p>